4 ms·

Allegedly Oracle did this years ago when they had layoffs-- employees were let go, then asked if they wanted to return. Apparently, if they said no, the company

by smfe 4y ago

Allegedly Oracle did this years ago when they had layoffs-- employees were let go, then asked if they wanted to return. Apparently, if they said no, the company considered the exit a resignation instead of a layoff, and would refuse severance. If oracle was then taken to court over the lack of severance by former employees, those employees' refusal to rejoin the company could be used to avoid an unfavorable ruling for Oracle. My coworker relayed his oracle layoff story to me, which is where I got this bit of info. Would love if someone else had a verifiable source.

encryptluks2 4y ago
How does this work? They are supposed to not look for other jobs after their notice because the company might call them back?
- XorNot 4y ago
  I assume it requires a cooperating local judge on the court cases.
  - 29athrowaway 4y ago
    Like the ones in private kangaroo court, aka forced arbitration.
    - dehrmann 4y ago
      If Musk really wanted to screw people over with loopholes, he'd buy JAMS and companies that use them for arbitration. Screw someone over directly, then get the arbiter so rubber stamp it.
  - paxys 4y ago
    Best of luck finding a cooperating judge in San Francisco.
- nradov 4y ago
  The employees are not prohibited from looking for other jobs.
dehrmann 4y ago
Definitely sounds like a Larry Ellison move. I guess the trick is instead of saying "no," say nothing so you can play dumb. "Must have been marked as spam."
- blamazon 4y ago
  Notably, Larry (the lawnmower?) and Elon appear to be on good terms and aligned on the twitter thing, judging by this text exchange where Larry offers $1B to help secure the Twitter deal and upgrades to $2B with no compunction after a gentle prod from Elon: https://danluu.com/elon-twitter-texts/#7 https://danluu.com/elon-twitter-texts/#7
  - memish 4y ago
    That's wild. It's a different world. That whole page is interesting to read. Elon: I would like to understand the technical details of the Twitter codebase. This will help me calibrate the dumbness of my suggestions. Parag: I wrote heavy duty software for 20 years Parag: I used to be CTO and have been in our codebase for a long time. Parag: So I can answer many many of your questions. Elon: I interface way better with engineers who are able to do hardcore programming than with program managero/ MBA types of people. ... Elon: Crypto spam on Twitter really needs to get crushed. It's a major blight on the user experience and they scam so many innocent people. Bret: It sounds like we are confirming 7pm at a private residence near San Jose. Our assistants reached out to Jehn on logistics. Let me know if either of you have any concerns or want to move things around. Looking forward to our conversation. Parag: Works for me. Excited to see you both in person! Elon: Jehn had a baby and I decided to try having no assistant for a few months
    - blamazon 4y ago
      Is Jehn from this conversation Jehn Balajadia, listed as COO of the Boring Company? Kinda interesting.
- pmoriarty 4y ago
  "I guess the trick is instead of saying "no," say nothing so you can play dumb. "Must have been marked as spam."" ...or you can say "I'd like to come back for double the pay."
mullingitover 4y ago
This might make sense if they were still enrolled in the company email system, and there was some period where it had been communicated that there was some was some expectation that they'd make themselves available for contingencies. If they're locked out of the company's email system and they'd been told 'this is your last working day,' and they didn't check their personal email/answer the phone ("whoops! must've gone to the spam folder!"), I don't think Twitter has a leg to stand on when it comes to forcing them to come back on the threat of lost severance. Their last contact with the company told them they didn't work there. It's pretty black and white. Just all around sloppy lawyering on that separation notice, imho.
- JamesianP 4y ago
  IANAL but severance isn't required by California law so I'd think that if their employment contract promises some, the situation completely depends on what else the contract has to say about conditions where it can be taken away. "Severance offers" in my experience are a new contract they throw at you at the end, they offer some cash and maybe benefits awhile and you have to make some new promises in return.
  - dehrmann 4y ago
    The CA WARN Act creates a essentially a 60-day severance once a layoff is big enough.
snoopy_telex 4y ago
From the Twitter email > Today is your last working day at the company, however, you will remain employed by Twitter and will receive compensation and benefits through your separation date of February 2, 2023. > During this time, you will be on a Non-Working Notice period and your access to Twitter systems will be deactivated. > While you are not expected to work during the None-Working Notice period, you are still required to comply with all company policies, including the Employee Playbook and Code of Conduct. It seems like a refusal to go off of the “None-Working Notice” would be treated the same as any other refusal to follow assignments and it would make legal sense that it would turn to a termination rather then layoff. Not moral, but legal IMHO

by smfe 4y ago

encryptluks2 4y ago

How does this work? They are supposed to not look for other jobs after their notice because the company might call them back?

XorNot 4y ago
I assume it requires a cooperating local judge on the court cases.
- 29athrowaway 4y ago
  Like the ones in private kangaroo court, aka forced arbitration.
  - dehrmann 4y ago
    If Musk really wanted to screw people over with loopholes, he'd buy JAMS and companies that use them for arbitration. Screw someone over directly, then get the arbiter so rubber stamp it.
- paxys 4y ago
  Best of luck finding a cooperating judge in San Francisco.
nradov 4y ago
The employees are not prohibited from looking for other jobs.

dehrmann 4y ago

Definitely sounds like a Larry Ellison move. I guess the trick is instead of saying "no," say nothing so you can play dumb. "Must have been marked as spam."

blamazon 4y ago
Notably, Larry (the lawnmower?) and Elon appear to be on good terms and aligned on the twitter thing, judging by this text exchange where Larry offers $1B to help secure the Twitter deal and upgrades to $2B with no compunction after a gentle prod from Elon: https://danluu.com/elon-twitter-texts/#7 https://danluu.com/elon-twitter-texts/#7
- memish 4y ago
  That's wild. It's a different world. That whole page is interesting to read. Elon: I would like to understand the technical details of the Twitter codebase. This will help me calibrate the dumbness of my suggestions. Parag: I wrote heavy duty software for 20 years Parag: I used to be CTO and have been in our codebase for a long time. Parag: So I can answer many many of your questions. Elon: I interface way better with engineers who are able to do hardcore programming than with program managero/ MBA types of people. ... Elon: Crypto spam on Twitter really needs to get crushed. It's a major blight on the user experience and they scam so many innocent people. Bret: It sounds like we are confirming 7pm at a private residence near San Jose. Our assistants reached out to Jehn on logistics. Let me know if either of you have any concerns or want to move things around. Looking forward to our conversation. Parag: Works for me. Excited to see you both in person! Elon: Jehn had a baby and I decided to try having no assistant for a few months
  - blamazon 4y ago
    Is Jehn from this conversation Jehn Balajadia, listed as COO of the Boring Company? Kinda interesting.
pmoriarty 4y ago
"I guess the trick is instead of saying "no," say nothing so you can play dumb. "Must have been marked as spam."" ...or you can say "I'd like to come back for double the pay."

mullingitover 4y ago

This might make sense if they were still enrolled in the company email system, and there was some period where it had been communicated that there was some was some expectation that they'd make themselves available for contingencies. If they're locked out of the company's email system and they'd been told 'this is your last working day,' and they didn't check their personal email/answer the phone ("whoops! must've gone to the spam folder!"), I don't think Twitter has a leg to stand on when it comes to forcing them to come back on the threat of lost severance. Their last contact with the company told them they didn't work there. It's pretty black and white. Just all around sloppy lawyering on that separation notice, imho.

JamesianP 4y ago
IANAL but severance isn't required by California law so I'd think that if their employment contract promises some, the situation completely depends on what else the contract has to say about conditions where it can be taken away. "Severance offers" in my experience are a new contract they throw at you at the end, they offer some cash and maybe benefits awhile and you have to make some new promises in return.
- dehrmann 4y ago
  The CA WARN Act creates a essentially a 60-day severance once a layoff is big enough.

snoopy_telex 4y ago

From the Twitter email > Today is your last working day at the company, however, you will remain employed by Twitter and will receive compensation and benefits through your separation date of February 2, 2023. > During this time, you will be on a Non-Working Notice period and your access to Twitter systems will be deactivated. > While you are not expected to work during the None-Working Notice period, you are still required to comply with all company policies, including the Employee Playbook and Code of Conduct. It seems like a refusal to go off of the “None-Working Notice” would be treated the same as any other refusal to follow assignments and it would make legal sense that it would turn to a termination rather then layoff. Not moral, but legal IMHO