8 ms·

Ask HN: My political party knows I haven't voted yet. How?

43 points by everybodyknows 4y ago

California; just got the SMS. How TF are they being notified of my voting activity?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
qclibre22 4y ago
Voting history is available to political parties and candidates.
- mindcrime 4y ago
  It varies from state to state, but at least here in NC voting history is available to the world. You can jump on the SBOE website right now and see every election I voted in, for example, since 1992. What I'm not sure about, is how much latency there is in terms of when the public record is updated. And before anybody asks, no they don't report who you voted for. Just the fact that you voted, whether the election was a general election or primary, and if it was a primary, which party's primary you voted in.
- alphabettsy 4y ago
  Available to anyone actually in most states I’m aware of.
gregjor 4y ago
Have you considered they send those to everyone? And someone else who did vote is about to post "I already voted! Why did I get this message?" Plenty of companies out there aggregating voter information -- see L2 Data for example.
- fasthands9 4y ago
  I got a text and phone call today from the Republican party of New Hampshire. I have not lived/voted in New Hampshire in 6 years. The only time I voted Republican was in the 2012 primary because Obama didn't have an opponent and I wanted to vote for the moderate I liked. I agree that the easiest explanation is that they send it to everyone - if you've already voted there isn't much downside.
  - gregjor 4y ago
    I have a second phone number I use when I have to give a number to a company or government agency. All calls to that number go to voicemail, my phone doesn't ring, and I can look at transcriptions and swipe them into the trash. In the past month I probably deleted over 100 phone calls about the upcoming election. I also received enough flyers in my mailbox to fill a garbage bag. None of the calls or flyers or ads on TV would change my opinion on anything on the ballot. I have a hard time imagining how any of it pays off, but I suppose some people respond to it.
SkyMarshal 4y ago
How do you know they knew? Maybe they’re just spamming SMS’s at their list.
- tootie 4y ago
  I get told at least once a week I could save money on car insurance despite the fact that I don't own a car. When it comes to mass direct marketing, it's a numbers game. Spam as many people as possible expecting to get a 1% response rate.
bbertelsen 4y ago
Some states release early and absentee data at the precinct level. Campaigners can glean a lot from this information, including modeling the likelihood that you have voted early or not based on your past vote history. With the exception of Utah (whose voter file is now opt-in), every state identifies which elections you have voted in.
MBCook 4y ago
Speculation: voter rolls are public, so everyone knows you’re a voter and what your registered party is. Since you voted early the state must record that. Don’t they release counts of how many people have voted so far? Plus they would need to record you voted so they could reject any other ballots from you that might come in. There is probably a record of which elections you’ve voted in (though not how you voted). There is in my state and with some basic info I believe I can look anyone up, not just myself. So if your party has a list of their registered voters (they do, public information) then they could easily check the status to see if each of those voters has voted yet (public information). Combine that with your phone number from public records or maybe a past donation, and they’d have everything they need.
jtorsella 4y ago
Your voting history is publicly available (nothing about who you vote for, just whether or not you vote in a given election year). There have been several studies showing that messages along the lines of “Your voting history is public, make sure to vote this year.” Or “keep up your voting streak!” are extremely effective, I believe the most effective single messages we know of or at least the most well-known ones. Both parties and countless civic orgs do this now, it’s been a major thing since 08. The original experiments were randomized, but usually if you’re getting the message now you’re part of a target demo someone wants to turn out.
- MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
  Why on earth is it publicly available? Something like that could be abused pretty easily. I guess it lets non-voters verify that no one has stolen their vote, but still..
  - tester756 4y ago
    Many things could be "abused pretty easily" but are they actually abused?
  - daemoens 4y ago
    I can't think of anyway on the spot of how this could be abused. They still don't know who you voted for, just that you voted. Are there any common abuses of this data?
    - arealaccount 4y ago
      Some of us don’t want to support any of the people on the ballot. Being forced to write down support for an entity that you don’t want is a psychological hack. Now you can’t just tell the “vote or die people” that you already voted to get them off your back.
      - bawolff 4y ago
        You can just spoil your ballot.
bilal4hmed 4y ago
in some states like Texas, your county posts your name publicly in a "voted" list. Its there for all to see without putting who you voted for Maybe thats how they know
justinzollars 4y ago
This should not be flagged.
- throwaway12245 4y ago
  - bentley 4y ago
    What narrative would that be?
slater 4y ago
username checks out /scnr
troydavis 4y ago
Many county elections officials release downloadable lists of who has voted (but, of course, not who they voted for). For example, here's King County, WA (Seattle), which is updated 1-2x/day during balloting: https://www.sos.wa.gov/elections/research/2022-general-election.aspx https://www.sos.wa.gov/elections/research/2022-general-elect... Here's at least one option for Los Angeles County: https://www.lavote.gov/home/voting-elections/current-elections/voter-status-and-participation https://www.lavote.gov/home/voting-elections/current-electio... They're often called "matchbacks," since it's a list of voter IDs that campaigns match back to the list of registered voters.
- encryptluks2 4y ago
  This is what I am thinking too.
- sidewndr46 4y ago
  Couldn't the state just compel the county elections to delay this until 1 hour after the last polling place closes?
- doktorhladnjak 4y ago
  I live in King County. The frequently published lists have one big advantage. Once your ballot has been accepted, you see a big dropoff in texts, calls, and canvassers within 1-2 days. Nobody wants to waste time on somebody who's already voted.
dragonwriter 4y ago
Most states make voter lists available (usually, for purchase) to parties, campaigns, and sometimes more broadly, and the list information often includes voting history. General national summary is here: https://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/access-to-and-use-of-voter-registration-lists.aspx https://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/access... It doesn’t list California as providing voting history, but the information available from California County elections offices includes voting history in every county I’ve checked. But that’s for past elections, I’m not sure exactly how they get information on status for the current election.
- Spooky23 4y ago
  There are poll observers who watch this stuff.
nopenopenopeno 4y ago
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xu8u9ZbCJgQ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xu8u9ZbCJgQ
heavyset_go 4y ago
One day, I got a knock at the door from a canvasser that started a conversation with "Since you've voted in every election," which is how I learned that it isn't just voter registration information that is public, but so is the record of whether you've voted or not.
- troydavis 4y ago
  If you're curious, here's a screencast of one popular canvasser-facing tool, VoteBuilder: https://youtu.be/2GJU5tIhYG8?t=1388 https://youtu.be/2GJU5tIhYG8?t=1388 In addition to importing everyone's voting records, contacts/interactions with the party or campaigns, and the like, VoteBuilder also predicts a voter's likelihood to support different issues or races and chances of turning out: https://youtu.be/2GJU5tIhYG8?t=1428 https://youtu.be/2GJU5tIhYG8?t=1428 Did I mention that it has voters' cell phone numbers too? And a ton of other stuff. And good luck getting it removed, or even finding out who to contact to get it removed. (Longer intros: https://youtu.be/knCkUKUJU0k?t=533 https://youtu.be/knCkUKUJU0k?t=533, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NGP_VAN https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NGP_VAN, https://support.nydems.org/support/solutions/articles/63000258348-what-is-van-votebuilder- https://support.nydems.org/support/solutions/articles/630002...)
  - everybodyknows 4y ago
    Any clues how they get the cell numbers?
    - troydavis 4y ago
      The same places that non-political telemarketers do. Many retailers sell customer info, as do credit bureaus/financial services organizations and telecom firms. Google “phone data appending” and you’ll find lots of data brokers. I run a free site at https://simpleoptout.com https://simpleoptout.com that makes it easier to opt-out of data sharing. Doing that is the first step, but suitably motivated buyers (which includes the national parties) will still find someone selling your data. One other step helps: when there’s no need for an entity to have your phone number, don’t provide it. If a phone number is required for no reason, provide a fake number at an area code that’s not in use. This can easily reduce the privacy “attack surface” by 50%. Every random e-commerce vendor does not need your phone number to fulfill your order.
c3534l 4y ago
I've been getting messages and mail in Oregon and I think they're just making things up. They even tried to shame me for voting in the general elections, but not the midterms. This is of course nonsense, but its probably easier to mail out a thousand of those than to research each voter.
idlewords 4y ago
Well, now you done confirmed it!
frob 4y ago
In Wisconsin, the state provides a list of who has requested an absentee ballot, who has returned it, who has voted early, and who is just registered. These are updated around daily and can be accessed by anyone with the right knowledge (and possibly cash).
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
danvoell 4y ago
Could be a guess. I got similar message and it was incorrect.
trinovantes 4y ago
I'm surprised information about who voted is publicly available Will businesses start offering discounts/bonuses for people that show proof that they've voted (under the guise of rewarding those that did their civic duty), but only in areas that are heavily biased towards one party? Technically it's available to everyone but only easily accessible to those that voted for the business' preferred party.
- raldi 4y ago
  That's illegal. Currently some places do it here and there but if it became significant enough to affect the vote, they'd lose the lawsuit: https://www.eater.com/2016/11/8/13561804/election-day-free-food-for-voting-illegal https://www.eater.com/2016/11/8/13561804/election-day-free-f...
ohCh6zos 4y ago
I'm not sure I could bring myself to vote for a party that did this.
Cupertino95014 4y ago
"The ground game" has always included "finding out if your supporters have voted yet, and calling them if not." Long before the Internet. It's just that now it's much more efficient, more accessible to more people, and it isn't just on Election Day, but for the whole period of early voting. So that might be a good reason to stop releasing the information.
- Spooky23 4y ago
  I’d disagree. The old ground game empowered political machines. It sucks that successful “grassroots“ candidates tend to be… really awful today. But the parties, particularly the Democratic Party will eventually figure out how to actually appeal to people.
  - Cupertino95014 4y ago
    I don't quite understand your point. "The old ground game empowered political machines." so that was a good thing?

California; just got the SMS. How TF are they being notified of my voting activity?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

qclibre22 4y ago

Voting history is available to political parties and candidates.

mindcrime 4y ago
It varies from state to state, but at least here in NC voting history is available to the world. You can jump on the SBOE website right now and see every election I voted in, for example, since 1992. What I'm not sure about, is how much latency there is in terms of when the public record is updated. And before anybody asks, no they don't report who you voted for. Just the fact that you voted, whether the election was a general election or primary, and if it was a primary, which party's primary you voted in.
alphabettsy 4y ago
Available to anyone actually in most states I’m aware of.

gregjor 4y ago

Have you considered they send those to everyone? And someone else who did vote is about to post "I already voted! Why did I get this message?" Plenty of companies out there aggregating voter information -- see L2 Data for example.

fasthands9 4y ago
I got a text and phone call today from the Republican party of New Hampshire. I have not lived/voted in New Hampshire in 6 years. The only time I voted Republican was in the 2012 primary because Obama didn't have an opponent and I wanted to vote for the moderate I liked. I agree that the easiest explanation is that they send it to everyone - if you've already voted there isn't much downside.
- gregjor 4y ago
  I have a second phone number I use when I have to give a number to a company or government agency. All calls to that number go to voicemail, my phone doesn't ring, and I can look at transcriptions and swipe them into the trash. In the past month I probably deleted over 100 phone calls about the upcoming election. I also received enough flyers in my mailbox to fill a garbage bag. None of the calls or flyers or ads on TV would change my opinion on anything on the ballot. I have a hard time imagining how any of it pays off, but I suppose some people respond to it.

SkyMarshal 4y ago

How do you know they knew? Maybe they’re just spamming SMS’s at their list.

tootie 4y ago
I get told at least once a week I could save money on car insurance despite the fact that I don't own a car. When it comes to mass direct marketing, it's a numbers game. Spam as many people as possible expecting to get a 1% response rate.

bbertelsen 4y ago

Some states release early and absentee data at the precinct level. Campaigners can glean a lot from this information, including modeling the likelihood that you have voted early or not based on your past vote history. With the exception of Utah (whose voter file is now opt-in), every state identifies which elections you have voted in.

MBCook 4y ago

Speculation: voter rolls are public, so everyone knows you’re a voter and what your registered party is. Since you voted early the state must record that. Don’t they release counts of how many people have voted so far? Plus they would need to record you voted so they could reject any other ballots from you that might come in. There is probably a record of which elections you’ve voted in (though not how you voted). There is in my state and with some basic info I believe I can look anyone up, not just myself. So if your party has a list of their registered voters (they do, public information) then they could easily check the status to see if each of those voters has voted yet (public information). Combine that with your phone number from public records or maybe a past donation, and they’d have everything they need.

jtorsella 4y ago

Your voting history is publicly available (nothing about who you vote for, just whether or not you vote in a given election year). There have been several studies showing that messages along the lines of “Your voting history is public, make sure to vote this year.” Or “keep up your voting streak!” are extremely effective, I believe the most effective single messages we know of or at least the most well-known ones. Both parties and countless civic orgs do this now, it’s been a major thing since 08. The original experiments were randomized, but usually if you’re getting the message now you’re part of a target demo someone wants to turn out.

MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
Why on earth is it publicly available? Something like that could be abused pretty easily. I guess it lets non-voters verify that no one has stolen their vote, but still..
- tester756 4y ago
  Many things could be "abused pretty easily" but are they actually abused?
- daemoens 4y ago
  I can't think of anyway on the spot of how this could be abused. They still don't know who you voted for, just that you voted. Are there any common abuses of this data?
  - arealaccount 4y ago
    Some of us don’t want to support any of the people on the ballot. Being forced to write down support for an entity that you don’t want is a psychological hack. Now you can’t just tell the “vote or die people” that you already voted to get them off your back.
    - bawolff 4y ago
      You can just spoil your ballot.

bilal4hmed 4y ago

in some states like Texas, your county posts your name publicly in a "voted" list. Its there for all to see without putting who you voted for Maybe thats how they know

justinzollars 4y ago

This should not be flagged.

throwaway12245 4y ago
- bentley 4y ago
  What narrative would that be?

slater 4y ago

username checks out /scnr

troydavis 4y ago

Many county elections officials release downloadable lists of who has voted (but, of course, not who they voted for). For example, here's King County, WA (Seattle), which is updated 1-2x/day during balloting: https://www.sos.wa.gov/elections/research/2022-general-election.aspx https://www.sos.wa.gov/elections/research/2022-general-elect... Here's at least one option for Los Angeles County: https://www.lavote.gov/home/voting-elections/current-elections/voter-status-and-participation https://www.lavote.gov/home/voting-elections/current-electio... They're often called "matchbacks," since it's a list of voter IDs that campaigns match back to the list of registered voters.

encryptluks2 4y ago
This is what I am thinking too.
sidewndr46 4y ago
Couldn't the state just compel the county elections to delay this until 1 hour after the last polling place closes?
doktorhladnjak 4y ago
I live in King County. The frequently published lists have one big advantage. Once your ballot has been accepted, you see a big dropoff in texts, calls, and canvassers within 1-2 days. Nobody wants to waste time on somebody who's already voted.

dragonwriter 4y ago

Most states make voter lists available (usually, for purchase) to parties, campaigns, and sometimes more broadly, and the list information often includes voting history. General national summary is here: https://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/access-to-and-use-of-voter-registration-lists.aspx https://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/access... It doesn’t list California as providing voting history, but the information available from California County elections offices includes voting history in every county I’ve checked. But that’s for past elections, I’m not sure exactly how they get information on status for the current election.

Spooky23 4y ago
There are poll observers who watch this stuff.

nopenopenopeno 4y ago

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xu8u9ZbCJgQ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xu8u9ZbCJgQ

heavyset_go 4y ago

One day, I got a knock at the door from a canvasser that started a conversation with "Since you've voted in every election," which is how I learned that it isn't just voter registration information that is public, but so is the record of whether you've voted or not.

troydavis 4y ago
If you're curious, here's a screencast of one popular canvasser-facing tool, VoteBuilder: https://youtu.be/2GJU5tIhYG8?t=1388 https://youtu.be/2GJU5tIhYG8?t=1388 In addition to importing everyone's voting records, contacts/interactions with the party or campaigns, and the like, VoteBuilder also predicts a voter's likelihood to support different issues or races and chances of turning out: https://youtu.be/2GJU5tIhYG8?t=1428 https://youtu.be/2GJU5tIhYG8?t=1428 Did I mention that it has voters' cell phone numbers too? And a ton of other stuff. And good luck getting it removed, or even finding out who to contact to get it removed. (Longer intros: https://youtu.be/knCkUKUJU0k?t=533 https://youtu.be/knCkUKUJU0k?t=533, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NGP_VAN https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NGP_VAN, https://support.nydems.org/support/solutions/articles/63000258348-what-is-van-votebuilder- https://support.nydems.org/support/solutions/articles/630002...)
- everybodyknows 4y ago
  Any clues how they get the cell numbers?
  - troydavis 4y ago
    The same places that non-political telemarketers do. Many retailers sell customer info, as do credit bureaus/financial services organizations and telecom firms. Google “phone data appending” and you’ll find lots of data brokers. I run a free site at https://simpleoptout.com https://simpleoptout.com that makes it easier to opt-out of data sharing. Doing that is the first step, but suitably motivated buyers (which includes the national parties) will still find someone selling your data. One other step helps: when there’s no need for an entity to have your phone number, don’t provide it. If a phone number is required for no reason, provide a fake number at an area code that’s not in use. This can easily reduce the privacy “attack surface” by 50%. Every random e-commerce vendor does not need your phone number to fulfill your order.

c3534l 4y ago

I've been getting messages and mail in Oregon and I think they're just making things up. They even tried to shame me for voting in the general elections, but not the midterms. This is of course nonsense, but its probably easier to mail out a thousand of those than to research each voter.

idlewords 4y ago

Well, now you done confirmed it!

frob 4y ago

In Wisconsin, the state provides a list of who has requested an absentee ballot, who has returned it, who has voted early, and who is just registered. These are updated around daily and can be accessed by anyone with the right knowledge (and possibly cash).

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

danvoell 4y ago

Could be a guess. I got similar message and it was incorrect.

trinovantes 4y ago

I'm surprised information about who voted is publicly available Will businesses start offering discounts/bonuses for people that show proof that they've voted (under the guise of rewarding those that did their civic duty), but only in areas that are heavily biased towards one party? Technically it's available to everyone but only easily accessible to those that voted for the business' preferred party.

raldi 4y ago
That's illegal. Currently some places do it here and there but if it became significant enough to affect the vote, they'd lose the lawsuit: https://www.eater.com/2016/11/8/13561804/election-day-free-food-for-voting-illegal https://www.eater.com/2016/11/8/13561804/election-day-free-f...

ohCh6zos 4y ago

I'm not sure I could bring myself to vote for a party that did this.

Cupertino95014 4y ago

"The ground game" has always included "finding out if your supporters have voted yet, and calling them if not." Long before the Internet. It's just that now it's much more efficient, more accessible to more people, and it isn't just on Election Day, but for the whole period of early voting. So that might be a good reason to stop releasing the information.

Spooky23 4y ago
I’d disagree. The old ground game empowered political machines. It sucks that successful “grassroots“ candidates tend to be… really awful today. But the parties, particularly the Democratic Party will eventually figure out how to actually appeal to people.
- Cupertino95014 4y ago
  I don't quite understand your point. "The old ground game empowered political machines." so that was a good thing?