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I think we’re in a transition period where it looks like drones will probably replace scout and attack helicopters. In the mean time a chopper like this probabl

by simonh 4y ago

I think we’re in a transition period where it looks like drones will probably replace scout and attack helicopters. In the mean time a chopper like this probably still has a role, but I think they’re on the wrong side of history with this. For now though, while western militaries can afford to hand out LAWS and MANPADS to their troops like sweets, India’s main rivals probably can’t. Yes an individual MANPAD is much cheaper than a chopper, but to defend your entire army from a few dozen choppers you’ll need to hand out a heck of a lot of MANPADS to get the coverage. The main saving grace of a system like this is that the munitions, unguided rockets and cannon rounds, are pretty cheap. In contrast while drones are much cheaper than the chopper, they’re very expensive as munitions.

pjc50 4y ago
The runtime cost of helicopters is pretty terrible, though. You can easily exceed the cost of several expendable "switchblade" type drones simply taking off and flying to the target.
- le-mark 4y ago
  Range and eyeballs are the elements a lot of people leave out. Helos carry the eyeballs with them long ranges. Drones require radios with enough bandwidth for real time video. Which at the range of 100s of km is very non trivial and non cheap. That’s to say switch blades don’t have comparable range obviously, and that’s not nothing.
  - KptMarchewa 4y ago
    You don't need 100km ranges when your drones are standard issue at company and platoon level.
- sandworm101 4y ago
  Apples and oranges. A switchblade is only ever useful against a target. It doesn't have the firepower to suppress enemy movement, to cover an allied advance, or decimate an area of ground when you cannot pinpoint a target's exact position. A helicopter with some FFARs and a machine gun can. If the helicopter can do something that no drone can, then it does compete regardless of the extra cost/complexity/manpower needed to deploy it.
  - simonh 4y ago
    Exactly this, it ludicrous to try and compare the cost of a handful of switchblade drones, which are single use with a warhead equivalent to a light mortar shell, to an entire attack helicopter deployment. No question helps are very expensive, but the vast majority of the costs are incurred whether you deploy it or not. They can range over hundreds of miles performing a wide variety of tasks and carry far more capable sensor, communications and weapon systems than drones. As I said I think drones are here and very capable, and they’re the future for these sorts of missions, but we’re not quite there yet.
ch4s3 4y ago
It seems like helicopters coupled with drones and ground forces could play a role in a rapid advance. They’re probably DOA for urban environments though, just based on what we’re seeing in Ukraine.
closewith 4y ago
> The main saving grace of a system like this is that the munitions, unguided rockets and cannon rounds, are pretty cheap. In contrast while drones are much cheaper than the chopper, they’re very expensive as munitions. Based on the current war in Ukraine, this isn't true at all. Even relatively expensive loitering munitions (compare to mortars dropped from DJI drones) like the Switchblade 600 cost in the range of $10,000-20,000 per deployment, significantly cheaper than the flight costs for a rotary light attack sortie and much cheaper than even the "low-cost" missile option for the Prachand (the Thales FZ275 LGR - the high-cost option is the MBDA Mistral, which costs $300,000 per deployment). There is no scenario in which a manned rotary craft competes with a drone on cost.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- dfc 4y ago
  > There is no scenario in which a manned rotary craft competes with a drone on cost. What drone competes with a manned MH-74 on cost? It seems like the traditional drone advantages disappear when the payload is humans.
  - sitkack 4y ago
    Goal posts have now crossed state lines. And to actually the thread, drones ARE being worked on that can go do search and rescue, bringing back the victim. Safer for crew, better coverage and can get into places a traditional rotor craft can't.
    - MichaelCollins 4y ago
      It's not a moved goalpost. Remember that Hind type helicopters are used in both transport and attack roles. There aren't yet any comparable drones, nor even any drones with a comparable transport lift capability. A drone which can lift a guy on a stretcher can only do a small fraction of what transport helicopters do.
    - dfc 4y ago
unity1001 4y ago
> western militaries can afford to hand out LAWS and MANPADS to their troops like sweets They can't. These are expensive in the West due to the privatized defense industry racking up prices. Russia and China can. And countries like India, who buy from them cheap, can.

by simonh 4y ago

pjc50 4y ago

The runtime cost of helicopters is pretty terrible, though. You can easily exceed the cost of several expendable "switchblade" type drones simply taking off and flying to the target.

le-mark 4y ago
Range and eyeballs are the elements a lot of people leave out. Helos carry the eyeballs with them long ranges. Drones require radios with enough bandwidth for real time video. Which at the range of 100s of km is very non trivial and non cheap. That’s to say switch blades don’t have comparable range obviously, and that’s not nothing.
- KptMarchewa 4y ago
  You don't need 100km ranges when your drones are standard issue at company and platoon level.
sandworm101 4y ago
Apples and oranges. A switchblade is only ever useful against a target. It doesn't have the firepower to suppress enemy movement, to cover an allied advance, or decimate an area of ground when you cannot pinpoint a target's exact position. A helicopter with some FFARs and a machine gun can. If the helicopter can do something that no drone can, then it does compete regardless of the extra cost/complexity/manpower needed to deploy it.
- simonh 4y ago
  Exactly this, it ludicrous to try and compare the cost of a handful of switchblade drones, which are single use with a warhead equivalent to a light mortar shell, to an entire attack helicopter deployment. No question helps are very expensive, but the vast majority of the costs are incurred whether you deploy it or not. They can range over hundreds of miles performing a wide variety of tasks and carry far more capable sensor, communications and weapon systems than drones. As I said I think drones are here and very capable, and they’re the future for these sorts of missions, but we’re not quite there yet.

ch4s3 4y ago

It seems like helicopters coupled with drones and ground forces could play a role in a rapid advance. They’re probably DOA for urban environments though, just based on what we’re seeing in Ukraine.

closewith 4y ago

> The main saving grace of a system like this is that the munitions, unguided rockets and cannon rounds, are pretty cheap. In contrast while drones are much cheaper than the chopper, they’re very expensive as munitions. Based on the current war in Ukraine, this isn't true at all. Even relatively expensive loitering munitions (compare to mortars dropped from DJI drones) like the Switchblade 600 cost in the range of $10,000-20,000 per deployment, significantly cheaper than the flight costs for a rotary light attack sortie and much cheaper than even the "low-cost" missile option for the Prachand (the Thales FZ275 LGR - the high-cost option is the MBDA Mistral, which costs $300,000 per deployment). There is no scenario in which a manned rotary craft competes with a drone on cost.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
dfc 4y ago
> There is no scenario in which a manned rotary craft competes with a drone on cost. What drone competes with a manned MH-74 on cost? It seems like the traditional drone advantages disappear when the payload is humans.
- sitkack 4y ago
  Goal posts have now crossed state lines. And to actually the thread, drones ARE being worked on that can go do search and rescue, bringing back the victim. Safer for crew, better coverage and can get into places a traditional rotor craft can't.
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago
    It's not a moved goalpost. Remember that Hind type helicopters are used in both transport and attack roles. There aren't yet any comparable drones, nor even any drones with a comparable transport lift capability. A drone which can lift a guy on a stretcher can only do a small fraction of what transport helicopters do.
  - dfc 4y ago

unity1001 4y ago

> western militaries can afford to hand out LAWS and MANPADS to their troops like sweets They can't. These are expensive in the West due to the privatized defense industry racking up prices. Russia and China can. And countries like India, who buy from them cheap, can.