3 ms·

Daniel Kish on how he's able to use echolocation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a05kgcI9D2Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a05kgcI9D2Q https://www.youtube.

Daniel Kish on how he's able to use echolocation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a05kgcI9D2Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a05kgcI9D2Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uH0aihGWB8U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uH0aihGWB8U

spindle 4y ago
Right - I use echolocation (although rarely) and I can't work out why it's contentious to think that humans do.
- dragonsky 4y ago
  Isn't it just a matter of listening to the ambient noise in your environment. open space sounds different to a closed room. if there is any noise around you can normally tell if you are near a wall just because one ear is getting a close echo from the wall, and the other isn't. I think most people use sound all the time to orient themselves, especially in the dark. It's just that we are so fixated on what we see that using hearing to tell what is around you gets overloaded by the higher resolution information from our eyes. I think I would be very interesting to see good research done with blind people to see how they use their senses. Is anybody aware of such research?
  - mellavora 4y ago
    Well, you could look at i.e. Daniel Kish (as mentioned above). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Kish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Kish "Kish's work has inspired a number of scientific studies related to human echolocation. In a 2009 study at the University of Alcalá in Madrid, Spain, ten sighted subjects were taught basic navigation skills within a few days. The study aimed to analyze various sounds which can be used to echolocate and evaluate which were most effective.[5][6] In another study, MRI brain scans were taken of Kish and another echolocation expert to identify the parts of the brain involved in echolocation, with readings suggesting "that brain structures that process visual information in sighted people process echo information in blind echolocation experts." https://visioneers.org/daniel-kish/ https://visioneers.org/daniel-kish/
  - blueflow 4y ago
    I use echolocation myself, > Isn't it just a matter of listening to the ambient noise in your environment. open space sounds different to a closed room. Yes. Absent of light and suitable noise, you make the noise yourself. And this is something instinctive to me, so i would assume other people could do it, too.
- rgrieselhuber 4y ago
  There is a strong materialist bias to modern thinking that precludes having thoughts about any sort of sensory perception beyond the most basic facilities of our five sense organs.
  - mkl 4y ago
    There are many modern thinkers who don't just think about our other senses but make their careers on studying them through rigorous (even materialistic) experiment, e.g. balance, spatial orientation, proprioception, nociception etc. The notion that there are only five senses (let alone five sense organs) is well established to be false.
    - rgrieselhuber 4y ago
      Yes, but I didn't say there are no people who think about these things, just that there is a strong materialist bias in modern thinking against anything beyond the five senses. Progress is being made but we still have a long way to go.
- aaron695 4y ago
  > I can't work out why it's contentious Echolocation is contentious because people assume it's to do with timing. Humans can't time the echo in a room. Echolocation by humans is using the head as a dampener between the ears to get direction/distance by diffing the ears on noise not time. Is my understanding. You could see why people who think it's related to timing like the classic submarine would obviously think it doesn't work with humans. You learn about the speed of sound at a young age and people know the brain can't handle that. They might assume in a dark room people are using ambient noise and ambient echo's, not echolocation. With people using echolocation who are visually impaired in most articles they are not 100% blind so you are not sure what mix is going on. Most articles aren't explaining this well.
  - spindle 4y ago
    Ah! That makes sense, and was not what I was expecting at all. Thank you for explaining!
alexvoda 4y ago
Fascinating. I find it hard to imagine what learning such a skill entails.
- InDemoVeritas 4y ago
  If you can make a clicking noise with the side of your tongue, you can easily sense the volume of space you’re in, how close to a wall, etc.
  - c-baby 4y ago
  - idontwantthis 4y ago
    I’ve read about this, but I’ve never understood what that means. I can click my tongue but I can never hear any kind of echo. Is it a very particular click?
    - InDemoVeritas 4y ago
      Sharp and short, alternating left and right at about 4 Hz, on the side of the tongue back by the molars. Feels like pulling the side of the tongue away from the teeth. It’s a much clickier click than a front of the tongue ‘click’.
    - clouddrover 4y ago
      See the videos in my other comment. Daniel Kish explains how he does it.
    - exDM69 4y ago
      You will not distinguish an echo, just a change in the "tone" of the sound you make as it reverberates in your surroundings. The echo pulses are there but just milliseconds after the sound you made. It will all blur into a softer or harder reverb depending on your surroundings. To hear an actual separate echo pulse, it would need to be 20-100 milliseconds later than the original sound. That corresponds to a large hall tens of meters in size.
im3w1l 4y ago
I wonder what this says about the brain, and how it could be applied for AI. It seems to me like we have an innate knowledge that we exist in a 3d space, and that this model somehow can pull data from multiple sensor modalities - at least vision, hearing and touch, oh and the vestibular system (accelerometer). Maybe not smell? (it's both very disimilar from the others, it's also wired up differently, not passing through the thalamus - though that may be a red herring). Edit: Another neat factoid is that there were experiments done where subjects wore glasses that turned the world upside down or mirrored left and right. After about a week people could function normally while wearing those. The brain knows what the world is supposed to look like and is able to figure out the correct transform, and once applied previously learned motor skills are once again fully available. This shows that there is some kind of stable higher level representation that sight feeds into in a flexible way.

spindle 4y ago

Right - I use echolocation (although rarely) and I can't work out why it's contentious to think that humans do.

dragonsky 4y ago
Isn't it just a matter of listening to the ambient noise in your environment. open space sounds different to a closed room. if there is any noise around you can normally tell if you are near a wall just because one ear is getting a close echo from the wall, and the other isn't. I think most people use sound all the time to orient themselves, especially in the dark. It's just that we are so fixated on what we see that using hearing to tell what is around you gets overloaded by the higher resolution information from our eyes. I think I would be very interesting to see good research done with blind people to see how they use their senses. Is anybody aware of such research?
- mellavora 4y ago
  Well, you could look at i.e. Daniel Kish (as mentioned above). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Kish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Kish "Kish's work has inspired a number of scientific studies related to human echolocation. In a 2009 study at the University of Alcalá in Madrid, Spain, ten sighted subjects were taught basic navigation skills within a few days. The study aimed to analyze various sounds which can be used to echolocate and evaluate which were most effective.[5][6] In another study, MRI brain scans were taken of Kish and another echolocation expert to identify the parts of the brain involved in echolocation, with readings suggesting "that brain structures that process visual information in sighted people process echo information in blind echolocation experts." https://visioneers.org/daniel-kish/ https://visioneers.org/daniel-kish/
- blueflow 4y ago
  I use echolocation myself, > Isn't it just a matter of listening to the ambient noise in your environment. open space sounds different to a closed room. Yes. Absent of light and suitable noise, you make the noise yourself. And this is something instinctive to me, so i would assume other people could do it, too.
rgrieselhuber 4y ago
There is a strong materialist bias to modern thinking that precludes having thoughts about any sort of sensory perception beyond the most basic facilities of our five sense organs.
- mkl 4y ago
  There are many modern thinkers who don't just think about our other senses but make their careers on studying them through rigorous (even materialistic) experiment, e.g. balance, spatial orientation, proprioception, nociception etc. The notion that there are only five senses (let alone five sense organs) is well established to be false.
  - rgrieselhuber 4y ago
    Yes, but I didn't say there are no people who think about these things, just that there is a strong materialist bias in modern thinking against anything beyond the five senses. Progress is being made but we still have a long way to go.
aaron695 4y ago
> I can't work out why it's contentious Echolocation is contentious because people assume it's to do with timing. Humans can't time the echo in a room. Echolocation by humans is using the head as a dampener between the ears to get direction/distance by diffing the ears on noise not time. Is my understanding. You could see why people who think it's related to timing like the classic submarine would obviously think it doesn't work with humans. You learn about the speed of sound at a young age and people know the brain can't handle that. They might assume in a dark room people are using ambient noise and ambient echo's, not echolocation. With people using echolocation who are visually impaired in most articles they are not 100% blind so you are not sure what mix is going on. Most articles aren't explaining this well.
- spindle 4y ago
  Ah! That makes sense, and was not what I was expecting at all. Thank you for explaining!

alexvoda 4y ago

Fascinating. I find it hard to imagine what learning such a skill entails.

InDemoVeritas 4y ago
If you can make a clicking noise with the side of your tongue, you can easily sense the volume of space you’re in, how close to a wall, etc.
- c-baby 4y ago
- idontwantthis 4y ago
  I’ve read about this, but I’ve never understood what that means. I can click my tongue but I can never hear any kind of echo. Is it a very particular click?
  - InDemoVeritas 4y ago
    Sharp and short, alternating left and right at about 4 Hz, on the side of the tongue back by the molars. Feels like pulling the side of the tongue away from the teeth. It’s a much clickier click than a front of the tongue ‘click’.
  - clouddrover 4y ago
    See the videos in my other comment. Daniel Kish explains how he does it.
  - exDM69 4y ago
    You will not distinguish an echo, just a change in the "tone" of the sound you make as it reverberates in your surroundings. The echo pulses are there but just milliseconds after the sound you made. It will all blur into a softer or harder reverb depending on your surroundings. To hear an actual separate echo pulse, it would need to be 20-100 milliseconds later than the original sound. That corresponds to a large hall tens of meters in size.

im3w1l 4y ago

I wonder what this says about the brain, and how it could be applied for AI. It seems to me like we have an innate knowledge that we exist in a 3d space, and that this model somehow can pull data from multiple sensor modalities - at least vision, hearing and touch, oh and the vestibular system (accelerometer). Maybe not smell? (it's both very disimilar from the others, it's also wired up differently, not passing through the thalamus - though that may be a red herring). Edit: Another neat factoid is that there were experiments done where subjects wore glasses that turned the world upside down or mirrored left and right. After about a week people could function normally while wearing those. The brain knows what the world is supposed to look like and is able to figure out the correct transform, and once applied previously learned motor skills are once again fully available. This shows that there is some kind of stable higher level representation that sight feeds into in a flexible way.