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The web platform, HTML/js/css in a browser, is one of the greatest inventions of all time. Its versatility is immeasurable. The fact we have one toolkit that sc

The web platform, HTML/js/css in a browser, is one of the greatest inventions of all time. Its versatility is immeasurable. The fact we have one toolkit that scales from a simple text based publishing platform to full application development environment, is insane. It covers all paradigms of computing, from thin client to full offline enabled local computing. It is incredible that the community have built this general purpose platform, and that it's not only versatile but also incredibly performant. Modern JS engines are only 50% the speed of native C, no compiler or toolkit needed. How insane is that! CSS/HTML is growing from strength to strength, it's a gui toolkit with so much power universally supported on all computing platforms, from phones to desktops. It has so many features, and is so extendable, but anyone can use it anywhere. There's no limit to its capability, or who can use it to build their inventions. The same toolkit can be used by small children to explore the ideas around "programming" all the way up to the best developers in the world. Honestly the argument that we have somehow gone wrong with html/css/js is absurd. What this platform has contributed to humanity is immeasurable. The "original vision" of the web as a publishing platform for text may be dead. But it lives on as a publishing platform for human invention, ingenuity and creativity.

beebmam 4y ago
This is beautifully said and absolutely true. The HTML/js/css platform is truly incredible. Looking forward to seeing how people can use WASM in incredible ways!
- samwillis 4y ago
  Absolutely, and like all new things some of the original uses will not work out but what it brings to the table is awesome. (I'm unconvinced by trying to "speed up" normal web apps with it) The two places I'm most excited about it is using it in combination with WebGPU for games/engineering/ai/science, and with the "origin privet file system" enabling client side databases such as SQLite and DuckDB. I think it's the final peace of the jigsaw to make PWAs take off like a rocket. Honestly, PWAs are the true future of the web, the perfect extension of its vision.
- tracker1 4y ago
  I have somewhat mixed feelings on WASM... you can't "peak" into it nearly as much as JS... but even JS has gone past the point of being really decipherable by humans in production sites for a while. I know there's some boundary issues with performance and hope that it can be worked out in a meaningful/reasonable way. I think WASM gets much more interesting in server hosted platform environments. You get largely portable code that can run wherever (x86, arm, risc-v, etc) and is in a secure environment, read-only into itself.
  - qu4z-2 4y ago
    JavaScript has, for better or worse, become Flash.
    - tracker1 4y ago
      The exception being that JS's sandbox isn't the sieve that Flash was.
kaba0 4y ago
While I absolutely agree regarding the immeasurable contribution to humanity part, I feel it happened despite HTML/CSS, not because of it. I still think that it is a very inefficient and bad abstraction for general purpose layouts and only recently with flexbox/grid did it basically got feature-parity with things like.. WinForms. Js used to be pretty bad as well, but hats down, they did alleviate many of the shortcomings and made it into a decent language (though I do get grumpy when it is overused at places where it has no reason to be)
- samwillis 4y ago
  It's the miss-use of a tool that drives invention, that is how the web has evolved, and will continue to. WinForms may be a great GUI toolkit, but it isn't as versatile or accessible as the web platform. If you only ever use a tool the way it was intended how can you make it better?
  - kaba0 4y ago
    No sane person would use WinForms, my point was that layouting and GUIs already had prior art and none of the lessons were learned. > If you only ever use a tool the way it was intended how can you make it better? I don’t think that it’s how things work.. you don’t have to misuse something to think ahead and make something better/develop it into better directions.
    - still_grokking 4y ago
      I agree. Sounds like: "We're proud of the craziest kludge in history. Look mom, DHTML!" One could even write a full parody of one of the previous posts. (Sorry, SCNR): """ The JVM platform, Java in a browser, is one of the greatest inventions of all time. Its versatility is immeasurable. The fact we have one toolkit that scales from a simple text based platform to full application development environment, is insane. It covers all paradigms of computing, from thin client to full offline enabled local computing. It is incredible that the community have built this general purpose platform, and that it's not only versatile but also incredibly performant. Modern Java interpreters are only 50% the speed of native C, no compiler or toolkit needed. How insane is that! JavaFX/CSS is growing from strength to strength, it's a gui toolkit with so much power universally supported on all computing platforms, from phones to desktops. It has so many features, and is so extendable, but anyone can use it anywhere. There's no limit to its capability, or who can use it to build their inventions. The same toolkit can be used by small children to explore the ideas around "programming" all the way up to the best developers in the world. Honestly the argument that we have somehow gone wrong with Java is absurd. What this platform has contributed to humanity is immeasurable. The "original vision" of Java as a platform only for embedded devices may be dead. But it lives on as a platform for human invention, ingenuity and creativity. """
nr2x 4y ago
True, but you can’t “view source” and teach yourself the basics now. We lost something important along the way to world domination.
- parasubvert 4y ago
  You can? But you need to view the source of simpler sites. It’s been 30 years, it’s natural for popular sites to be complicated.
  - paledot 4y ago
    Not really. Even most simple sites these days start with `npx create-react-app`.
- EugeneOZ 4y ago
  You can. There are Source Maps and prettifiers for the minified code - all you need to do is just open it and read (for example, in Chrome DevTools).
BlueTemplar 4y ago
Not just text, multimedia documents. The lack of standalone support for which these days is pretty sad, everyone seems to be using pdfs even though those are mostly only good for archiving paper documents ! And while using the browser as an OS inside the OS has some benefits, it's even worse than Java in the sense that it's hard to build a good program when you're constantly fighting with the browser for the interface... (consider how rare it is to see a webapp with lots of keyboard shortcuts and support for multiple windows for instance)

beebmam 4y ago

This is beautifully said and absolutely true. The HTML/js/css platform is truly incredible. Looking forward to seeing how people can use WASM in incredible ways!

samwillis 4y ago
Absolutely, and like all new things some of the original uses will not work out but what it brings to the table is awesome. (I'm unconvinced by trying to "speed up" normal web apps with it) The two places I'm most excited about it is using it in combination with WebGPU for games/engineering/ai/science, and with the "origin privet file system" enabling client side databases such as SQLite and DuckDB. I think it's the final peace of the jigsaw to make PWAs take off like a rocket. Honestly, PWAs are the true future of the web, the perfect extension of its vision.
tracker1 4y ago
I have somewhat mixed feelings on WASM... you can't "peak" into it nearly as much as JS... but even JS has gone past the point of being really decipherable by humans in production sites for a while. I know there's some boundary issues with performance and hope that it can be worked out in a meaningful/reasonable way. I think WASM gets much more interesting in server hosted platform environments. You get largely portable code that can run wherever (x86, arm, risc-v, etc) and is in a secure environment, read-only into itself.
- qu4z-2 4y ago
  JavaScript has, for better or worse, become Flash.
  - tracker1 4y ago
    The exception being that JS's sandbox isn't the sieve that Flash was.

kaba0 4y ago

While I absolutely agree regarding the immeasurable contribution to humanity part, I feel it happened despite HTML/CSS, not because of it. I still think that it is a very inefficient and bad abstraction for general purpose layouts and only recently with flexbox/grid did it basically got feature-parity with things like.. WinForms. Js used to be pretty bad as well, but hats down, they did alleviate many of the shortcomings and made it into a decent language (though I do get grumpy when it is overused at places where it has no reason to be)

samwillis 4y ago
It's the miss-use of a tool that drives invention, that is how the web has evolved, and will continue to. WinForms may be a great GUI toolkit, but it isn't as versatile or accessible as the web platform. If you only ever use a tool the way it was intended how can you make it better?
- kaba0 4y ago
  No sane person would use WinForms, my point was that layouting and GUIs already had prior art and none of the lessons were learned. > If you only ever use a tool the way it was intended how can you make it better? I don’t think that it’s how things work.. you don’t have to misuse something to think ahead and make something better/develop it into better directions.
  - still_grokking 4y ago
    I agree. Sounds like: "We're proud of the craziest kludge in history. Look mom, DHTML!" One could even write a full parody of one of the previous posts. (Sorry, SCNR): """ The JVM platform, Java in a browser, is one of the greatest inventions of all time. Its versatility is immeasurable. The fact we have one toolkit that scales from a simple text based platform to full application development environment, is insane. It covers all paradigms of computing, from thin client to full offline enabled local computing. It is incredible that the community have built this general purpose platform, and that it's not only versatile but also incredibly performant. Modern Java interpreters are only 50% the speed of native C, no compiler or toolkit needed. How insane is that! JavaFX/CSS is growing from strength to strength, it's a gui toolkit with so much power universally supported on all computing platforms, from phones to desktops. It has so many features, and is so extendable, but anyone can use it anywhere. There's no limit to its capability, or who can use it to build their inventions. The same toolkit can be used by small children to explore the ideas around "programming" all the way up to the best developers in the world. Honestly the argument that we have somehow gone wrong with Java is absurd. What this platform has contributed to humanity is immeasurable. The "original vision" of Java as a platform only for embedded devices may be dead. But it lives on as a platform for human invention, ingenuity and creativity. """

nr2x 4y ago

True, but you can’t “view source” and teach yourself the basics now. We lost something important along the way to world domination.

parasubvert 4y ago
You can? But you need to view the source of simpler sites. It’s been 30 years, it’s natural for popular sites to be complicated.
- paledot 4y ago
  Not really. Even most simple sites these days start with `npx create-react-app`.
EugeneOZ 4y ago
You can. There are Source Maps and prettifiers for the minified code - all you need to do is just open it and read (for example, in Chrome DevTools).

BlueTemplar 4y ago

Not just text, multimedia documents. The lack of standalone support for which these days is pretty sad, everyone seems to be using pdfs even though those are mostly only good for archiving paper documents ! And while using the browser as an OS inside the OS has some benefits, it's even worse than Java in the sense that it's hard to build a good program when you're constantly fighting with the browser for the interface... (consider how rare it is to see a webapp with lots of keyboard shortcuts and support for multiple windows for instance)