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I find your comment a bit perplexing, perhaps you can help me understand. Why do you want to release code on GitHub with an oppressive license? What's the moti

I find your comment a bit perplexing, perhaps you can help me understand. Why do you want to release code on GitHub with an oppressive license? What's the motivation for you, and what's the benefit for anyone else in it being released? The size of code fragments being generated with these AI tools is, as far as I can tell, extremely small. Do you think you could even notice if your own implementation of sqrt, comments and all, wound up in Excel?

account42 4y ago
The point of copyleft licenses (which I assume are what you mean with "opressive") is to subvert copyright in order to incentivize others to share their code by providing them with something to build on if they return the favor. You cannot possibly call these licenses opressive since the default state with copyright is that you are not allowed to do much at all (at least when it comes to copying). In fact copyleft licenses allow you to do much much more than your average corp-lawyer approved proprietary license. The problem (or A problem) with copilot is that it tries to sidestep those licenses, purpotedly allowing you to build upon the work of others without giving anything back even if the work you are building on has been published on the explicit condition that what you create with it should also be shared in the same way. While the great AI tumbler makes the legal copyright infringement argument complicated by giving you lots of small bits from lots of different sources it really does not change the moral situation: you are explicitly going against the wishes of the people that are enabling you to do what you are doing. Beyond copyleft, this kind of disregard for other peoples wishes also applies to attribution even with more liberal licenses. Programming is already a field where proper attrubution is woefully lacking - we don't need to make it worse by introducing processes where it becomes much harder if not impossible to tell who contributed to the creation. Now I am all for maximum code sharing. I'm all for abolishing copyright entirely and letting everyone build what they want without being shackled by so-called intellectual property. But that is not something Microsoft is doing with Copilot. What they have created is a one way funnel from OSS to proprietary software. If Microsoft had initially trained Copilot on their own proprietary sources this would have been seen very differently. But they did not. Because the way Microsoft "loves open source" is not in the way of a mutally beneficial symbiotic relationship but that of an abuser that loves taking advantage of whatever they can with giving as little back as they can get away with.
- still_grokking 4y ago
  It's a pity I can up-vote only once. This nails it!
- codebje 4y ago
  How does one make the leap from "a source available but otherwise proprietary license" to a copyleft license? As I understand the terms, perhaps in too limited a way, a proprietary license is never one in which others are free to build on the code or incorporate any part of it into their own works, and a source available proprietary license is just publishing source that no-one can use. As for whether Copilot's morally wrong or not - I don't think copyright as a concept makes any sense at the level of the trivial, where Copilot _should_ be acting. If Copilot regularly reproduces sizeable portions of code from a single origin _without_ careful and deliberate guidance, I'd agree that there's a problem here. As I understand it though, that's not happening. By its very nature of being published, code from OSS is funnelled into proprietary codebases by humans performing a similar task to Copilot - reading available code and using that to evolve an understanding of how to produce software. I like to think we do it at a deeper level than Copilot, but the general effect is the same: the code I write, like the words I write, are heavily influenced by all the code I've read over the years. If I wind up using a few words from your comment, down the line, because some turn of phrase you used struck me as a good way to say something, do you think I've morally wronged you?

account42 4y ago

The point of copyleft licenses (which I assume are what you mean with "opressive") is to subvert copyright in order to incentivize others to share their code by providing them with something to build on if they return the favor. You cannot possibly call these licenses opressive since the default state with copyright is that you are not allowed to do much at all (at least when it comes to copying). In fact copyleft licenses allow you to do much much more than your average corp-lawyer approved proprietary license. The problem (or A problem) with copilot is that it tries to sidestep those licenses, purpotedly allowing you to build upon the work of others without giving anything back even if the work you are building on has been published on the explicit condition that what you create with it should also be shared in the same way. While the great AI tumbler makes the legal copyright infringement argument complicated by giving you lots of small bits from lots of different sources it really does not change the moral situation: you are explicitly going against the wishes of the people that are enabling you to do what you are doing. Beyond copyleft, this kind of disregard for other peoples wishes also applies to attribution even with more liberal licenses. Programming is already a field where proper attrubution is woefully lacking - we don't need to make it worse by introducing processes where it becomes much harder if not impossible to tell who contributed to the creation. Now I am all for maximum code sharing. I'm all for abolishing copyright entirely and letting everyone build what they want without being shackled by so-called intellectual property. But that is not something Microsoft is doing with Copilot. What they have created is a one way funnel from OSS to proprietary software. If Microsoft had initially trained Copilot on their own proprietary sources this would have been seen very differently. But they did not. Because the way Microsoft "loves open source" is not in the way of a mutally beneficial symbiotic relationship but that of an abuser that loves taking advantage of whatever they can with giving as little back as they can get away with.

still_grokking 4y ago
It's a pity I can up-vote only once. This nails it!
codebje 4y ago
How does one make the leap from "a source available but otherwise proprietary license" to a copyleft license? As I understand the terms, perhaps in too limited a way, a proprietary license is never one in which others are free to build on the code or incorporate any part of it into their own works, and a source available proprietary license is just publishing source that no-one can use. As for whether Copilot's morally wrong or not - I don't think copyright as a concept makes any sense at the level of the trivial, where Copilot _should_ be acting. If Copilot regularly reproduces sizeable portions of code from a single origin _without_ careful and deliberate guidance, I'd agree that there's a problem here. As I understand it though, that's not happening. By its very nature of being published, code from OSS is funnelled into proprietary codebases by humans performing a similar task to Copilot - reading available code and using that to evolve an understanding of how to produce software. I like to think we do it at a deeper level than Copilot, but the general effect is the same: the code I write, like the words I write, are heavily influenced by all the code I've read over the years. If I wind up using a few words from your comment, down the line, because some turn of phrase you used struck me as a good way to say something, do you think I've morally wronged you?