6 ms·

If my local library already owns the book and it is not checked out, what is the difference between driving there to check it out and downloading it illegally o

by elil17 4y ago

If my local library already owns the book and it is not checked out, what is the difference between driving there to check it out and downloading it illegally online? The impact to the author is the same: absolutely nothing.

bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
Arguably, the environmental impact of downloading it is less than driving to the library to check it out.
- komali2 4y ago
  ok swap out driving there for using libby / overdrive to check out the ebook from the library
  - bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
    Arguably, the carbon footprint of those companies having to exist in the first place…
akerl_ 4y ago
Libraries use checkout frequency to determine which books to stock and which books to stock more of. The more an author's books are checked out of a library, the more likely that library is to buy more copies of that book, as well as more copies of other books by that author.
hodgesrm 4y ago
As the previous commenter has already said, the author has been paid already in the first case. That's a material difference.
- notch656a 4y ago
  It blows my mind that in a hypercapitalist society like the US, that copyrights still exist. Copyrights are a massive violation of property rights, criminalizing merely observing something and independently reproducing it with your own private materials for your own non-commercial use. IMO it shakes to the core free market, capitalist, and founding principles of our nation.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > It blows my mind that in a hypercapitalist society like the US, that copyrights still exist. Copyrights are a massive violation of property rights, Ah, you’ve mistaken capitalism (which had been developing for centuries earlier) with 18th century liberal economic theory, which is not its foundation but instead a rough ex-post-facto rationalization for large parts of the way it had developed. What capitalism is, though, is the systematic prioritization of the interests of the mercantile (which became, as legal property rights coalesced around their interest, capitalist) class as the organizing principle of society.
    - Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
      I think GP was using this definition: >an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market[0] >which had been developing for centuries earlier The use of capital has existed for thousands of years already. One could make the case that there is no such thing as capitalism but rather the desire for the realization of interests. The ruling class "before capitalism" was also capitalist: the lords' power was derived from their capital- the land. The only real difference between the mercantile class and the landed gentry was the respect they commanded when it comes down to it. [0]https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalism https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalism
      - NoGravitas 4y ago
        The ruling class before capitalism was not capitalist — the nature of property rights in land was very different under feudalism than it is under capitalism.
        Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
        See dragonwriter's point above mine. Specific property rights are not necessary for capital to exist. Can you explain then why the nature of property rights was so different that ownership of it could not be consideres capital? Keep in mind that nobles could in fact sell their land at many points and places during medievil history. Aditionaly, I made the case that one could say there is no capitalism. Could you explain, then, what capitalism is and why it would somehow only exist from the 18th century or later?
dfxm12 4y ago
In addition to the sale, a popular library is a library that buys more and more books and doesn't get shuttered.
googlryas 4y ago
If 100 people all see it is not checked out and then download it, there would be no contention If 100 people all try to check it out, there would be a huge waiting list and the library would try to order more copies.
ZoF 4y ago
It's nothing in isolation of your single act. Maybe. In aggregate it of course deprecates the library(they have e-checkouts already but you're talking untracked piracy). I like libraries; I think they're mostly performative in small towns and providing social services in cities rather than functioning as actual libraries. Kinda sad. I pirate all my books btw, just saying if everyone did it ofc there'd be(already is) impact. Easily smartphones+kindle is worse though.
- Ensorceled 4y ago
  > I like libraries; I think they're mostly performative in small towns and providing social services in cities rather than functioning as actual libraries. Kinda sad. The library in the small town I grew up in is still lending lots of books and ebooks in addition to lending movies and music and providing computer access, training and other services. The library down the street from where I live now is the same. Libraries are more vibrant and active now then when I was a kid. Where are you that libraries have become "performative"?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
1123581321 4y ago
No, the impact is different. The library doesn't pay for the ebook just once. When the library buys the ebook, they're allowed to lend it a certain number of times before they have to buy the book again. Or they pay for a number of lends per day and payments for the books checked out are distributed to the appropriate publishers. The relationship between physical book checkouts and author/publisher revenue is less direct, but the ebook contracts are an attempt to emulate decay and damage to physical books that require periodic repurchases. Arguably you are hastening the end of a physical book's life and its need to be repurchased, or need to stock more copies, by checking it out. Please don't misunderstand my explanation to be an endorsement of standard ebook lending contracts.
- Rimintil 4y ago
  > The relationship between physical book checkouts and author/publisher revenue is less direct Indeed. The publisher charges universities etc. a one time lump sum to purchase N copies of a book. The author gets next to nothing. Source: am an author of technical books. Royalties will buy me a few cardboard boxes.
  - 2Gkashmiri 4y ago
    why do we need "publishers" in today's market?is not like you have to have 4 intermediaries to sell on amazon or even digital copies? i'd be more forthcoming to pay $10 for a book that i know 50-70-90% proceeds go to the author than 2-4-5% which the rest take up? publishers, printers, yada yada must've been important to sell books 50 years ago but are they really necessary today?
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      > why do we need "publishers" in today's market? Distributing and marketing a book still takes expertise.
      - 2Gkashmiri 4y ago
        ah, so the one who is supposed to make money from his/her skill is given pittance while distribution and marketing people take the cake. fine. edit: if onlyfans can allow questionable skills be monetized and give millions to the um, performers, surely an author can find a way to sell their own books themselves

by elil17 4y ago

bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago

Arguably, the environmental impact of downloading it is less than driving to the library to check it out.

komali2 4y ago
ok swap out driving there for using libby / overdrive to check out the ebook from the library
- bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
  Arguably, the carbon footprint of those companies having to exist in the first place…

akerl_ 4y ago

Libraries use checkout frequency to determine which books to stock and which books to stock more of. The more an author's books are checked out of a library, the more likely that library is to buy more copies of that book, as well as more copies of other books by that author.

hodgesrm 4y ago

As the previous commenter has already said, the author has been paid already in the first case. That's a material difference.

notch656a 4y ago
It blows my mind that in a hypercapitalist society like the US, that copyrights still exist. Copyrights are a massive violation of property rights, criminalizing merely observing something and independently reproducing it with your own private materials for your own non-commercial use. IMO it shakes to the core free market, capitalist, and founding principles of our nation.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > It blows my mind that in a hypercapitalist society like the US, that copyrights still exist. Copyrights are a massive violation of property rights, Ah, you’ve mistaken capitalism (which had been developing for centuries earlier) with 18th century liberal economic theory, which is not its foundation but instead a rough ex-post-facto rationalization for large parts of the way it had developed. What capitalism is, though, is the systematic prioritization of the interests of the mercantile (which became, as legal property rights coalesced around their interest, capitalist) class as the organizing principle of society.
  - Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
    I think GP was using this definition: >an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market[0] >which had been developing for centuries earlier The use of capital has existed for thousands of years already. One could make the case that there is no such thing as capitalism but rather the desire for the realization of interests. The ruling class "before capitalism" was also capitalist: the lords' power was derived from their capital- the land. The only real difference between the mercantile class and the landed gentry was the respect they commanded when it comes down to it. [0]https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalism https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalism
    - NoGravitas 4y ago
      The ruling class before capitalism was not capitalist — the nature of property rights in land was very different under feudalism than it is under capitalism.
      - Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
        See dragonwriter's point above mine. Specific property rights are not necessary for capital to exist. Can you explain then why the nature of property rights was so different that ownership of it could not be consideres capital? Keep in mind that nobles could in fact sell their land at many points and places during medievil history. Aditionaly, I made the case that one could say there is no capitalism. Could you explain, then, what capitalism is and why it would somehow only exist from the 18th century or later?

dfxm12 4y ago

In addition to the sale, a popular library is a library that buys more and more books and doesn't get shuttered.

googlryas 4y ago

If 100 people all see it is not checked out and then download it, there would be no contention If 100 people all try to check it out, there would be a huge waiting list and the library would try to order more copies.

ZoF 4y ago

It's nothing in isolation of your single act. Maybe. In aggregate it of course deprecates the library(they have e-checkouts already but you're talking untracked piracy). I like libraries; I think they're mostly performative in small towns and providing social services in cities rather than functioning as actual libraries. Kinda sad. I pirate all my books btw, just saying if everyone did it ofc there'd be(already is) impact. Easily smartphones+kindle is worse though.

Ensorceled 4y ago
> I like libraries; I think they're mostly performative in small towns and providing social services in cities rather than functioning as actual libraries. Kinda sad. The library in the small town I grew up in is still lending lots of books and ebooks in addition to lending movies and music and providing computer access, training and other services. The library down the street from where I live now is the same. Libraries are more vibrant and active now then when I was a kid. Where are you that libraries have become "performative"?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

1123581321 4y ago

No, the impact is different. The library doesn't pay for the ebook just once. When the library buys the ebook, they're allowed to lend it a certain number of times before they have to buy the book again. Or they pay for a number of lends per day and payments for the books checked out are distributed to the appropriate publishers. The relationship between physical book checkouts and author/publisher revenue is less direct, but the ebook contracts are an attempt to emulate decay and damage to physical books that require periodic repurchases. Arguably you are hastening the end of a physical book's life and its need to be repurchased, or need to stock more copies, by checking it out. Please don't misunderstand my explanation to be an endorsement of standard ebook lending contracts.

Rimintil 4y ago
> The relationship between physical book checkouts and author/publisher revenue is less direct Indeed. The publisher charges universities etc. a one time lump sum to purchase N copies of a book. The author gets next to nothing. Source: am an author of technical books. Royalties will buy me a few cardboard boxes.
- 2Gkashmiri 4y ago
  why do we need "publishers" in today's market?is not like you have to have 4 intermediaries to sell on amazon or even digital copies? i'd be more forthcoming to pay $10 for a book that i know 50-70-90% proceeds go to the author than 2-4-5% which the rest take up? publishers, printers, yada yada must've been important to sell books 50 years ago but are they really necessary today?
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > why do we need "publishers" in today's market? Distributing and marketing a book still takes expertise.
    - 2Gkashmiri 4y ago
      ah, so the one who is supposed to make money from his/her skill is given pittance while distribution and marketing people take the cake. fine. edit: if onlyfans can allow questionable skills be monetized and give millions to the um, performers, surely an author can find a way to sell their own books themselves