5 ms·

What are your others? I use signal alot personally and haven't had too many issues.

by award_ 4y ago

sschueller 4y ago
- Still need a phone number - They refuse to post the app on f-droid (directly) - No 3rd party clients allowed on their servers. - Crypto thing they attempted - I don't trust Moxie, he rubs me the wrong way.
- junon 4y ago
  Agreed on all counts, especially the last one.
- artificialLimbs 4y ago
  - Backups? lol...
- aeturnum 4y ago
  None of these suggest you shouldn't use signal - or that it's not meeting its goal of secure communication (except the last one I suppose). Signal is not without flaws as you say, but if you have a phone number and can access a binary, there's every reason to believe it will securely and privately transmit your messages. You are also, ofc, free to fork their client and run your own service (as others have done).
  - krageon 4y ago
    There is no reason to believe it is secure, as it doesn't have reproducible builds. What you download has binary blobs embedded.
    - aeturnum 4y ago
      Signal has repeatedly been audited[1] so there's more reason to believe the protocol has the capacity to be secure than other options. Obviously if you believe the company is actively subverting their goal, you should use your own fork. Edit: to be clearer - signal both publishes a protocol (that is thought to be secure) and provides a public service (that claims to use the signal protocol). Signal has claimed that the binary blobs they add to their public client (and the other restrictions) are required to run a public service (anti-abuse, etc). You are free to believe them or not - I do. At the protocol level, which you are free to use, none of the problems you or the ancestors have pointed to apply. All of the alternatives people are pointing to here are at the "protocol" level - accessible only if you or someone you trust has setup a node. There's nothing wrong with that - it's a good idea - but it's no reason to attack signal's service for not being a protocol (which they also provide). [1] https://community.signalusers.org/t/overview-of-third-party-security-audits/13243 https://community.signalusers.org/t/overview-of-third-party-...
- gort19 4y ago
  What do you recommend as an alternative?
  - chpatrick 4y ago
    matrix/element.
  - freedomben 4y ago
    keybase.io has been great, although it's not without its risks either since it was acquired by Zoom. It's still up and seemingly maintained but AFAIK there's no new feature work. I've heard WhatsApp recommended from people I trust, but I have never personally used it so can't speak from experience.
    - gort19 4y ago
      WhatsApp seems like a non-starter based on this list of complaints. It’s hard to imagine someone who doesn’t trust Moxie, but does trust Zuck.
    - seized 4y ago
      A lot of people moved to Signal because of WhatsApps changes so that advice can thought of as misleading at best. Your suggested alternatives are owned by Zoom and Facebook. I'll stick with Signal.
    - happymellon 4y ago
      As a Facebook owned app, I don't trust WhatsApp. All of them being tied to a phone number is bad form.
    - calgoo 4y ago
      The legal team at the company I work for are suggesting to remove keybase and treat it as compromised as there is no way of knowing of keys and other data has not been shared with the Chinese government. No proof at all of course, just the world we live in I guess :)
    - L3viathan 4y ago
- ixwt 4y ago
  Moxie stepped down from the CEO of Signal in January of this year [0]. Other than that, yeah. Valid criticisms that their reasons are flimsy at best. [0]:https://www.theverge.com/2022/1/10/22876891/signal-ceo-steps-down-moxie-marlinspike-encryption-cryptocurrency https://www.theverge.com/2022/1/10/22876891/signal-ceo-steps...
  - krageon 4y ago
    Stepped down maybe, but the fostered culture remains.
- nells 4y ago
  - windexh8er 4y ago
    I see you're new, you might want to review the guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- dheera 4y ago
  Yeah the phone number thing is a bad move since it's traceable to your identity one way or another, even if you use a virtual number like I do.
ChuckNorris89 4y ago
Not GP but I'm a Signal user and here are my gripes: - No easy way to do and restore backups on Android and impossible to do backups on their PC client - Does not support Android tablets at all (my mom loves hers) - Fails to ring on Android when you call someone or someone calls you, later serving you a missed call notification (disabled Doze/battery optimization feature on Android and tested on 3 different phones with no cigar) - No way to share your live location to friends - Using its built in photo snapping and sharing function takes horrible pictures on Android (I suspect they're using the wrong API). If I want to send someone I'm currently texting a good looking picture I need to switch to my phone's camera APP, then back to the chat and use the photo upload function, instead of the in-app photo snapping and sharing function Some of these bugs have been reported 3+ years ago, while these things work flawlessly on WhatsApp since nearly forever, meanwhile Signal is busy implementing crypto payment features. I don't know about iOS, but at least for Android and PC, it still feels like an app in alpha that's not yet released to the public compared to how polished and feature rich WhatsApp and Telegram are.
- gort19 4y ago
  The only one of these that is a ‘bug’ is the failure to ring on android. The rest are all feature requests. That said, it’s interesting to see what people think are basic requirement for a messaging app these days.
  - thrtythreeforty 4y ago
    If you want to be reductionist, everything is a feature. But if an app is missing something so basic as to impact usability, I might consider it a bug. It's a matter of opinion where the line is, of course. Uncontroversial example: a calculator app that doesn't have a divide key. Technically, yes, it's a separate feature from the multiply key, but it's so basic, so expected, that its absence is a bug. From the above list, I consider "No easy way to do and restore backups on Android and impossible to do backups on their PC client" a bug, or at least a frustrating omission by design.
  - happymellon 4y ago
    Taking poor pictures, if it is due to using the wrong API is also a bug.
defraxi 4y ago
Although I use Signal, I actually prefer Threema which you can also use without a phone number. https://threema.ch/en/home https://threema.ch/en/home

What are your others? I use signal alot personally and haven't had too many issues.

by award_ 4y ago

What are your others? I use signal alot personally and haven't had too many issues.

- Still need a phone number - They refuse to post the app on f-droid (directly) - No 3rd party clients allowed on their servers. - Crypto thing they attempted - I don't trust Moxie, he rubs me the wrong way.

junon 4y ago
Agreed on all counts, especially the last one.
artificialLimbs 4y ago
- Backups? lol...
aeturnum 4y ago
None of these suggest you shouldn't use signal - or that it's not meeting its goal of secure communication (except the last one I suppose). Signal is not without flaws as you say, but if you have a phone number and can access a binary, there's every reason to believe it will securely and privately transmit your messages. You are also, ofc, free to fork their client and run your own service (as others have done).
- krageon 4y ago
  There is no reason to believe it is secure, as it doesn't have reproducible builds. What you download has binary blobs embedded.
  - aeturnum 4y ago
    Signal has repeatedly been audited[1] so there's more reason to believe the protocol has the capacity to be secure than other options. Obviously if you believe the company is actively subverting their goal, you should use your own fork. Edit: to be clearer - signal both publishes a protocol (that is thought to be secure) and provides a public service (that claims to use the signal protocol). Signal has claimed that the binary blobs they add to their public client (and the other restrictions) are required to run a public service (anti-abuse, etc). You are free to believe them or not - I do. At the protocol level, which you are free to use, none of the problems you or the ancestors have pointed to apply. All of the alternatives people are pointing to here are at the "protocol" level - accessible only if you or someone you trust has setup a node. There's nothing wrong with that - it's a good idea - but it's no reason to attack signal's service for not being a protocol (which they also provide). [1] https://community.signalusers.org/t/overview-of-third-party-security-audits/13243 https://community.signalusers.org/t/overview-of-third-party-...
gort19 4y ago
What do you recommend as an alternative?
- chpatrick 4y ago
  matrix/element.
- freedomben 4y ago
  keybase.io has been great, although it's not without its risks either since it was acquired by Zoom. It's still up and seemingly maintained but AFAIK there's no new feature work. I've heard WhatsApp recommended from people I trust, but I have never personally used it so can't speak from experience.
  - gort19 4y ago
    WhatsApp seems like a non-starter based on this list of complaints. It’s hard to imagine someone who doesn’t trust Moxie, but does trust Zuck.
  - seized 4y ago
    A lot of people moved to Signal because of WhatsApps changes so that advice can thought of as misleading at best. Your suggested alternatives are owned by Zoom and Facebook. I'll stick with Signal.
  - happymellon 4y ago
    As a Facebook owned app, I don't trust WhatsApp. All of them being tied to a phone number is bad form.
  - calgoo 4y ago
    The legal team at the company I work for are suggesting to remove keybase and treat it as compromised as there is no way of knowing of keys and other data has not been shared with the Chinese government. No proof at all of course, just the world we live in I guess :)
  - L3viathan 4y ago
ixwt 4y ago
Moxie stepped down from the CEO of Signal in January of this year [0]. Other than that, yeah. Valid criticisms that their reasons are flimsy at best. [0]:https://www.theverge.com/2022/1/10/22876891/signal-ceo-steps-down-moxie-marlinspike-encryption-cryptocurrency https://www.theverge.com/2022/1/10/22876891/signal-ceo-steps...
- krageon 4y ago
  Stepped down maybe, but the fostered culture remains.
nells 4y ago
- windexh8er 4y ago
  I see you're new, you might want to review the guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
dheera 4y ago
Yeah the phone number thing is a bad move since it's traceable to your identity one way or another, even if you use a virtual number like I do.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago

Not GP but I'm a Signal user and here are my gripes: - No easy way to do and restore backups on Android and impossible to do backups on their PC client - Does not support Android tablets at all (my mom loves hers) - Fails to ring on Android when you call someone or someone calls you, later serving you a missed call notification (disabled Doze/battery optimization feature on Android and tested on 3 different phones with no cigar) - No way to share your live location to friends - Using its built in photo snapping and sharing function takes horrible pictures on Android (I suspect they're using the wrong API). If I want to send someone I'm currently texting a good looking picture I need to switch to my phone's camera APP, then back to the chat and use the photo upload function, instead of the in-app photo snapping and sharing function Some of these bugs have been reported 3+ years ago, while these things work flawlessly on WhatsApp since nearly forever, meanwhile Signal is busy implementing crypto payment features. I don't know about iOS, but at least for Android and PC, it still feels like an app in alpha that's not yet released to the public compared to how polished and feature rich WhatsApp and Telegram are.

gort19 4y ago
The only one of these that is a ‘bug’ is the failure to ring on android. The rest are all feature requests. That said, it’s interesting to see what people think are basic requirement for a messaging app these days.
- thrtythreeforty 4y ago
  If you want to be reductionist, everything is a feature. But if an app is missing something so basic as to impact usability, I might consider it a bug. It's a matter of opinion where the line is, of course. Uncontroversial example: a calculator app that doesn't have a divide key. Technically, yes, it's a separate feature from the multiply key, but it's so basic, so expected, that its absence is a bug. From the above list, I consider "No easy way to do and restore backups on Android and impossible to do backups on their PC client" a bug, or at least a frustrating omission by design.
- happymellon 4y ago
  Taking poor pictures, if it is due to using the wrong API is also a bug.

defraxi 4y ago

Although I use Signal, I actually prefer Threema which you can also use without a phone number. https://threema.ch/en/home https://threema.ch/en/home