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I think taking down the buyers is a the best tool we have right now for this issue. And there are things we could do to make that easier, like putting a serial
by oblib 4y ago
I think taking down the buyers is a the best tool we have right now for this issue.
And there are things we could do to make that easier, like putting a serial number on the converter on new cars and replacement parts. Requiring the make, model, and serial number of the car it was removed from, and a web site with a DB that has the ID number of cars they've been stolen from so buyers could check it.
Make those who buy and sell and steal them pay for it. For new car buyers all they be paying for is the addition of the serial number. Can't add much cost to engrave those during production.
- reustle 4y agoPeople would grind off the serial numbers and sell them on the secondary market, or for the metals. With motorcycles, for example, motors and frames have vin numbers stamped to help prevent this, but you’ll sometimes see cheap parts for sale with the vin cleaned off.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- jakogut 4y agoIn case anyone thinks this is cost prohibitive or the tooling is rare, a $100 battery powered grinder you can buy from Home Depot will do this in five seconds. If you have a little less money and a little more time, a $5 flat file will do the same thing in a few minutes.
- oblib 4y agoYou know... we already have vehicle IDs on the body, the frame, and the engine on/in our cars. Those do lead to arrest every day here in the U.S.
- Scoundreller 4y agoDepends. The number stamping process does change the metal’s underlying metallurgy throughout the the metal where it was stamped. So unless you drill out the number through the entire metal (which is viable if you’re going to extract the minerals), there’s a possibility of reconstructing the serial number with some level of probability. Happens with guns. But that’s why you criminalize the trade of unmarked parts. Actually makes the prosecutor’s job easy that way rather than proving the part was actually stolen and not your retirement cat investment.
- tpxl 4y ago> The number stamping process does change the metal’s underlying metallurgy throughout the the metal where it was stamped. So unless you drill out the number through the entire metal (which is viable if you’re going to extract the minerals), there’s a possibility of reconstructing the serial number with some level of probability. Do you happen to have more information on that?
- Scoundreller 4y agoHere’s an example of it in practice: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/why-police-wanted-search-rodger-kotanko-1.6336188 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/why-police-wanted-se... Other info is a google away, just search for reconstructed serial numbers or similar queries. It’s not exactly a secret, but how successful it can be is.
- mieko 4y agoYeah: No one thinks it's mechanically difficult to remove identifiers. The point is to make such altered parts illegal to buy. Similar to VIN restrictions or handgun signifiers in many states.
- thepasswordis 4y agoThe thieves do not care about this and neither do the scrappers. They’ll both grind the serials off within a minute of taking possession if they’re still there.
- mrguyorama 4y agoThe point is that a cat with ground identifier is just as illegal to possess as one that is definitely stolen.
- q1w2 4y agoThe issue then becomes "plausible deniability". You cannot claim you didn't know they were stolen if the serial number is ground off. So whomever grind the numbers off, may as well cut it open and extract the metals. It puts a major obstacle in the supply chain.
- xcrunner529 4y agoWhy can’t it be a felony to buy said items?
- filoleg 4y agoBecause that's not what happens with stolen catalytic converters, so it wouldn't change anything. Stolen cathalytic converters are valuable due to precious metals that can be extracted from them.
- renewiltord 4y agoWe currently successfully regulate freon emissions. How do we do that? It surprises me that it's possible but it seems to work.
- lotsofpulp 4y agoProbably has to do with not being able to earn a few hundred dollars in a few minutes with the education of how to use a simple cutting tool from Home Depot.
- sokoloff 4y agoOn the ground, the situation with CFC refrigerants is probably a lot leakier (pun intended) than you think. There are a lot of AC systems repaired at stations that don't even own a recovery machine. (This is legal, so long as the system has already leaked out to nothing before starting the repair. I suspect that gets a wink and a nod a fair amount of the time.) Some refrigerants can only be legally sold to resellers or to users with an EPA certification. Sounds strict, huh? Well...the 609 certification test can be done online, is open book, and cost me $25 and 15 minutes to get.
- renewiltord 4y agoOkay, well, so much for that idea! :D
- from 4y ago
- hotpotamus 4y agoI wonder if the scheme outlined is more or less stringent than the US's legal ability to track guns. For now, they require serial numbers, but my understanding is that the ATF is disallowed from using computers to track firearms. It would be ironic if catalytic converters ended up with stricter controls than guns.
- kelnos 4y agoI don't think serial numbers would help in this case, as the converters are stolen, precious metals extracted, and then those metals are sold. The bit that would likely be stamped with a serial number is likely discarded.
- mieko 4y agoYeah: Literally make it illegal for shops to possess the platinum or palladium without documentation of provenance. Unless you're cool with the thefts that are going on, or think any government regulation is "overstepping."
- yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago> Unless you're cool with the thefts that are going on, or think any government regulation is "overstepping." Strawmanning anyone who disagrees with you makes your position look worse.
- bluGill 4y agoYou can process those metals in your backyard with a bag of charcoal. Sure industrial processes will extract more, but the backyard processes work.
- mrguyorama 4y agoWho is methhead steve selling his backyard, low yield, low grade platinum to? The value is because an industrial process can recover clean platinum.
- bluGill 4y agoOnce you have a small sheet you go to a scrap yard and say your dead grandpa was a hobby jeweler and nobody wants to continue the hobby. The important part is make it into a form where nobody can recognize it. The grade isn't as pure as industrial processes, but it isn't too bad. Likewise, while the yield isn't good, even if you collect 50% the value is high enough.
- bhawks 4y agoI thought the main selling point was scrapping the catalytic converter for the platinum and palladium inside. In that model a ID system for the catalytic converter itself isn't going to put to much friction on illicit activity.
- joelcollinsdc 4y agoIt’s not like you can just crack it open and the expensive metal falls out though. It’s an industrial process.
- thepasswordis 4y agoUmmm, no that’s almost exactly how it works actually. https://youtu.be/F8pd_p8gppE https://youtu.be/F8pd_p8gppE
- bluGill 4y agoIt isn't hard to melt those metals out. I used melt aluminum in my backyard, and the forums for that had discussions on other metals. While a backyard process is not going to recover all the metal, it is still going to get plenty.
- oblib 4y agoYou have to license the buyers and make them account for every lb they recycle by having the serial numbers to compare it. They would have to submit those number as soon as the buy one. If the converter doesn't have one they can't buy it, and setting up stings for that would be pretty easy.
- TheLoafOfBread 4y agoSo they will just start selling those converters abroad. Toothless
- oblib 4y agoWell, it starts locally. A meth head stealing a converter isn't going very far to sell it. Odds are most are sold to junkyards that sell them to a larger recycler that processes the PGMs. I think it's a bit of a stretch to assume that entire illegal market could move offshore without a trace.
- mieko 4y agoYour local cat thief does not have connections overseas. This market only exists because domestic purchasers aren't regulated.
- googlryas 4y agoNo, but there would probably be some middleman who has connections overseas, and would collect/ship converters for a fee.
- AlbertCory 4y agoThat's one of the things an auto shop can do for you. You don't need a new serial number or database; your VIN is good enough. But of course a thief can grind that off. The other one is welding on the converter. It doesn't make it unstealable; but it's just not a quickie extraction anymore. If your question is (as it should be), "What about legitimately fixing the converter? Can you still do that?" , I don't know.