8 ms·

Here in Texas, any student from the top 10% of their high school is guaranteed a place at the flagship University of Texas at Austin. This is widely understood

Here in Texas, any student from the top 10% of their high school is guaranteed a place at the flagship University of Texas at Austin. This is widely understood to be a form of affirmative action. Naturally, high schools in underprivileged areas - rural or urban - will produce students who are nowhere nearly as prepared as students from elite or wealthy schools. We ignore that difference as a policy matter. Top 10% is top 10%. Maybe the Ivies will move to a similar system in the wake of the current SCOTUS case.

geoduck14 4y ago
The top 10% of the good high schools don't go to University of Texas
- civilized 4y ago
  Who cares? It's a perfectly good school.
- askafriend 4y ago
  UT Austin has top 10 degree programs in many fields. It really just depends on what you're pursuing.
- maxfurman 4y ago
  The parent comment isn't about who goes to UT, it's about who gets accepted.
  - debacle 4y ago
    The point is that you can hold a door open for everyone, but only the people who need it will use it.
- whydat_whodat 4y ago
  UT Austin is considered one of the "public ivies" -- a public university offering an educational experience competitive with ivy league universities. Other examples are UC Berkeley, University of Washington at Seattle, and Penn State. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Ivy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Ivy
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- genedan 4y ago
  Yes they do.
- mcguire 4y ago
  Six of the Ivy's admitted 13,000 students this fall (https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2022/04/04/ivy-league-colleges-announce-acceptance-numbers-for-class-of-2026/?sh=48e6cffd625d https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2022/04/04/ivy-...). UTAustin admitted 19,000 last year, and roughly 50% enrolled. (https://admissions.utexas.edu/explore/freshman-profile https://admissions.utexas.edu/explore/freshman-profile) Texas graduates an estimated 350,000 high school seniors every year. (https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d16/tables/dt16_219.20.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d16/tables/dt16_219.20.a...)
Retric 4y ago
Ivy’s core issue is they want to use racially biased metrics for admissions like “did your parents go here?” which could be illegal. But they don’t want to admit that those metrics could possibly be illegal when defending their racial metrics to correct for that issue. Assuming they lose the case things will get interesting.
civilized 4y ago
On this particular issue of college accessibility to high-achieving underprivileged kids, Texas is the most progressive state in the US. Name a "progressive" state that comes even close.
- notch656a 4y ago
  Texas also has some of the more progressive housing policies, with basically no zoning in places like Houston and fairly high property taxes which disincentivize speculators from sitting on real estate. In regards to education, they allow a "academic fresh start" for university GPA, allowing those with a difficult start to erase 10+ year old GPA. It can help those with difficult beginnings get into medical school, for instance. The only state I know of with such a policy.
  - civilized 4y ago
    Real progressivism. Teddy Roosevelt would approve.
  - eru 4y ago
    Do keep in mind that things are not as great in Houston as they seem: They have no formal zoning, but they still have mandatory minimum parking requirements etc that outlaw density.
- s5300 4y ago
  Can’t have high-achieving underprivileged kids if they don’t even have lunch to eat during school…
  - acchow 4y ago
    For those missing context, I believe this is a reference to California high schools which provide free lunch to students (and I guess this doesn't happen in Texas...?)
    - tstrimple 4y ago
hosh 4y ago
I remembered hearing an NPR report about that. There was also something about success rates being higher because they were in the top 10% of the high school, rather than top 10% overall. Students were also given more mentoring, and some of them catch up.
golergka 4y ago
Sounds like an awful and completely unfair system that is working to undermine quality of higher education.
anyonecancode 4y ago
I've read speculation that this could find itself on shaky legal foundations depending on how SCOTUS rules on the latest affirmative action case? Not a lawyer so can't really tell if that's just FUD or a real concern. I think the TX approach is really interesting and would hate to see it ended.
- buerkle 4y ago
  The TX system creates weird incentives. I know kids have dropped electives because it drops their GPAs making it more difficult to get in the top 10%. And it's worsened because many of the high schools grade higher level course on a 6.0 scale.
nemothekid 4y ago
>Maybe the Ivies will move to a similar system in the wake of the current SCOTUS case. AFAICT, the ivies don't have a problem with filling their graduating class. I believe a place like Harvard even considering the top 10% of students would increase the applicant pool. I'm reciting these numbers from memory, but apparently the size of the incoming class at Harvard is roughly 2,000 students, but there are ~5,000 applicants that scored 95th percentile of the SAT. (Edit: This source [3] says there are 22,000 students who scored in the top 1% percentile; Harvard could likely admit every perfect scorer if it pleased). While I believe there is belief that Harvard is accepting C-students over asians A+ students I think the reality is much closer; they are rejecting students with perfect scores and accepting students who scored in the 98th percentile. The real problem is the size of the undergrad class for these select elite schools have remained the same (The harvard class size of 1992 was 2,200[1] compared to 1,954 today[2]), while the US population has grown almost 30% in the same time frame. You have more and more qualifying students fighting for the same number of spots and an organization that is more than happy to split imaginary hairs to keep the class size the same. [1] https://www.thecrimson.com/column/a-new-day-at-harvard/article/2021/2/12/berger-increase-undergrad-enrollment/ https://www.thecrimson.com/column/a-new-day-at-harvard/artic... [2]https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2022/4/1/admissions-class-of-2026/ https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2022/4/1/admissions-class... [3] https://go.collegewise.com/how-many-people-get-a-perfect-sat-score https://go.collegewise.com/how-many-people-get-a-perfect-sat...
- Frost1x 4y ago
  >While I believe there is belief that Harvard is accepting C-students over asians A+ students I think the reality is much closer; they are rejecting students with perfect scores and accepting students who scored in the 98th percentile. While I'm all for objective nd fair opportunity, I don't think the SAT is an example of this, so admitting people who didn't do as perfectly but still spectacularly on some test metric probably isn't a terrible idea. The question is what other weights they apply to the decision and how objectively fair or not those are.
- duvenaud 4y ago
  > While I believe there is belief that Harvard is accepting C-students over asians A+ students I think the reality is much closer; they are rejecting students with perfect scores and accepting students who scored in the 98th percentile. You don't need to speculate, the gap is more like 99th vs 93rd percentile: "Asian-Americans admitted to Harvard earned an average SAT score of 767 across all sections. ... African-American admits an average of 704." https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/10/22/asian-american-admit-sat-scores/ https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/10/22/asian-american...
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
tomohawk 4y ago
I went to a state school that was a top 25 school at the time. The state did pretty much the same thing. This was a disaster for the students who were top at their high school, but nevertheless not prepared to go to a top tier university because their high school was not a college prep school. They either flunked out or changed to majors they could scrape by in. They would have been much better off going to a community college for a year or two to level up first.
scarby2 4y ago
can you game this system by moving to a worse area? If you're rich and give your child all the support they need they're almost bound to be in the top 10%.
- scarmig 4y ago
  Though that'd be a likely outcome, it's also good in itself. If you have rich, well educated people moving to impoverished zip codes/shitty school districts to get their kids a leg up, that improves the tax base for those districts and, more importantly, makes a well-educated constituency active in maintaining accountability for that school district.
- gautamdivgi 4y ago
  I’ve known of folks who moved out of frisco and Plano suburbs to prospect when it was up and coming to spare their kids of the “Asian competition onslaught” in frisco and Plano schools. Not sure whether true or how it worked out. But yes, people do try to game it somewhat. I’m unsure how successful they are in the long run. Edit - these were Asian parents
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
nonethewiser 4y ago
> This is widely understood to be a form of affirmative action. That's a misunderstanding then because that's not affirmative action. Affirmative action is targeting specific groups of people to achieve some desired makeup. That's literally what affirmative action means. It doesn't ensure you get all the best students. That's true. But that doesn't make it affirmative action.
- thereisnospork 4y ago
  >Affirmative action is targeting specific groups of people to achieve some desired makeup. That's literally what affirmative action means. When the 10% of a high school class consists of a statistically outsized proportion of a desired group of people favoring them would be called affirmative action, yes. Just because a policy doesn't pick people out by the color of their skin doesn't make it not affirmative action. (And likewise, just because a policy doesn't call out skin color doesn't make it not racist.)
bushbaba 4y ago
Universities adopting such an approach would be a huge boon to lower tier schools. As a parent you’d question if it’s better to pull your “average” student at a top tier school to be a top student at an “average” school.
Thorrez 4y ago
That sounds like class-based affirmative action, not race-based affirmative action. Is class-based affirmative action even called affirmative action? The article sounds like it would be in favor of class-based affirmative action.
runako 4y ago
> Here in Texas, any student from the top 10% of their high school is guaranteed a place at the flagship University of Texas at Austin. > high schools in underprivileged areas - rural or urban - will produce students who are nowhere nearly as prepared as students from elite or wealthy schools. The most cynical read of the Texas policy is that it is an end-around of the SCOTUS ruling that relies on continued, widespread school segregation in Texas. If Texas schools were not segregated by race and wealth, this policy would not have the result of producing the diverse classes that the University of Texas system desires. The university system depends on the unfairness of the K-12 system to achieve its narrow set of policy goals.

geoduck14 4y ago

The top 10% of the good high schools don't go to University of Texas

civilized 4y ago
Who cares? It's a perfectly good school.
askafriend 4y ago
UT Austin has top 10 degree programs in many fields. It really just depends on what you're pursuing.
maxfurman 4y ago
The parent comment isn't about who goes to UT, it's about who gets accepted.
- debacle 4y ago
  The point is that you can hold a door open for everyone, but only the people who need it will use it.
whydat_whodat 4y ago
UT Austin is considered one of the "public ivies" -- a public university offering an educational experience competitive with ivy league universities. Other examples are UC Berkeley, University of Washington at Seattle, and Penn State. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Ivy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Ivy
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
genedan 4y ago
Yes they do.
mcguire 4y ago
Six of the Ivy's admitted 13,000 students this fall (https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2022/04/04/ivy-league-colleges-announce-acceptance-numbers-for-class-of-2026/?sh=48e6cffd625d https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2022/04/04/ivy-...). UTAustin admitted 19,000 last year, and roughly 50% enrolled. (https://admissions.utexas.edu/explore/freshman-profile https://admissions.utexas.edu/explore/freshman-profile) Texas graduates an estimated 350,000 high school seniors every year. (https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d16/tables/dt16_219.20.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d16/tables/dt16_219.20.a...)

Retric 4y ago

Ivy’s core issue is they want to use racially biased metrics for admissions like “did your parents go here?” which could be illegal. But they don’t want to admit that those metrics could possibly be illegal when defending their racial metrics to correct for that issue. Assuming they lose the case things will get interesting.

civilized 4y ago

On this particular issue of college accessibility to high-achieving underprivileged kids, Texas is the most progressive state in the US. Name a "progressive" state that comes even close.

notch656a 4y ago
Texas also has some of the more progressive housing policies, with basically no zoning in places like Houston and fairly high property taxes which disincentivize speculators from sitting on real estate. In regards to education, they allow a "academic fresh start" for university GPA, allowing those with a difficult start to erase 10+ year old GPA. It can help those with difficult beginnings get into medical school, for instance. The only state I know of with such a policy.
- civilized 4y ago
  Real progressivism. Teddy Roosevelt would approve.
- eru 4y ago
  Do keep in mind that things are not as great in Houston as they seem: They have no formal zoning, but they still have mandatory minimum parking requirements etc that outlaw density.
s5300 4y ago
Can’t have high-achieving underprivileged kids if they don’t even have lunch to eat during school…
- acchow 4y ago
  For those missing context, I believe this is a reference to California high schools which provide free lunch to students (and I guess this doesn't happen in Texas...?)
  - tstrimple 4y ago

hosh 4y ago

I remembered hearing an NPR report about that. There was also something about success rates being higher because they were in the top 10% of the high school, rather than top 10% overall. Students were also given more mentoring, and some of them catch up.

golergka 4y ago

Sounds like an awful and completely unfair system that is working to undermine quality of higher education.

anyonecancode 4y ago

I've read speculation that this could find itself on shaky legal foundations depending on how SCOTUS rules on the latest affirmative action case? Not a lawyer so can't really tell if that's just FUD or a real concern. I think the TX approach is really interesting and would hate to see it ended.

buerkle 4y ago
The TX system creates weird incentives. I know kids have dropped electives because it drops their GPAs making it more difficult to get in the top 10%. And it's worsened because many of the high schools grade higher level course on a 6.0 scale.

nemothekid 4y ago

>Maybe the Ivies will move to a similar system in the wake of the current SCOTUS case. AFAICT, the ivies don't have a problem with filling their graduating class. I believe a place like Harvard even considering the top 10% of students would increase the applicant pool. I'm reciting these numbers from memory, but apparently the size of the incoming class at Harvard is roughly 2,000 students, but there are ~5,000 applicants that scored 95th percentile of the SAT. (Edit: This source [3] says there are 22,000 students who scored in the top 1% percentile; Harvard could likely admit every perfect scorer if it pleased). While I believe there is belief that Harvard is accepting C-students over asians A+ students I think the reality is much closer; they are rejecting students with perfect scores and accepting students who scored in the 98th percentile. The real problem is the size of the undergrad class for these select elite schools have remained the same (The harvard class size of 1992 was 2,200[1] compared to 1,954 today[2]), while the US population has grown almost 30% in the same time frame. You have more and more qualifying students fighting for the same number of spots and an organization that is more than happy to split imaginary hairs to keep the class size the same. [1] https://www.thecrimson.com/column/a-new-day-at-harvard/article/2021/2/12/berger-increase-undergrad-enrollment/ https://www.thecrimson.com/column/a-new-day-at-harvard/artic... [2]https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2022/4/1/admissions-class-of-2026/ https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2022/4/1/admissions-class... [3] https://go.collegewise.com/how-many-people-get-a-perfect-sat-score https://go.collegewise.com/how-many-people-get-a-perfect-sat...

Frost1x 4y ago
>While I believe there is belief that Harvard is accepting C-students over asians A+ students I think the reality is much closer; they are rejecting students with perfect scores and accepting students who scored in the 98th percentile. While I'm all for objective nd fair opportunity, I don't think the SAT is an example of this, so admitting people who didn't do as perfectly but still spectacularly on some test metric probably isn't a terrible idea. The question is what other weights they apply to the decision and how objectively fair or not those are.
duvenaud 4y ago
> While I believe there is belief that Harvard is accepting C-students over asians A+ students I think the reality is much closer; they are rejecting students with perfect scores and accepting students who scored in the 98th percentile. You don't need to speculate, the gap is more like 99th vs 93rd percentile: "Asian-Americans admitted to Harvard earned an average SAT score of 767 across all sections. ... African-American admits an average of 704." https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/10/22/asian-american-admit-sat-scores/ https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/10/22/asian-american...

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

tomohawk 4y ago

I went to a state school that was a top 25 school at the time. The state did pretty much the same thing. This was a disaster for the students who were top at their high school, but nevertheless not prepared to go to a top tier university because their high school was not a college prep school. They either flunked out or changed to majors they could scrape by in. They would have been much better off going to a community college for a year or two to level up first.

scarby2 4y ago

can you game this system by moving to a worse area? If you're rich and give your child all the support they need they're almost bound to be in the top 10%.

scarmig 4y ago
Though that'd be a likely outcome, it's also good in itself. If you have rich, well educated people moving to impoverished zip codes/shitty school districts to get their kids a leg up, that improves the tax base for those districts and, more importantly, makes a well-educated constituency active in maintaining accountability for that school district.
gautamdivgi 4y ago
I’ve known of folks who moved out of frisco and Plano suburbs to prospect when it was up and coming to spare their kids of the “Asian competition onslaught” in frisco and Plano schools. Not sure whether true or how it worked out. But yes, people do try to game it somewhat. I’m unsure how successful they are in the long run. Edit - these were Asian parents
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

nonethewiser 4y ago

> This is widely understood to be a form of affirmative action. That's a misunderstanding then because that's not affirmative action. Affirmative action is targeting specific groups of people to achieve some desired makeup. That's literally what affirmative action means. It doesn't ensure you get all the best students. That's true. But that doesn't make it affirmative action.

thereisnospork 4y ago
>Affirmative action is targeting specific groups of people to achieve some desired makeup. That's literally what affirmative action means. When the 10% of a high school class consists of a statistically outsized proportion of a desired group of people favoring them would be called affirmative action, yes. Just because a policy doesn't pick people out by the color of their skin doesn't make it not affirmative action. (And likewise, just because a policy doesn't call out skin color doesn't make it not racist.)

bushbaba 4y ago

Universities adopting such an approach would be a huge boon to lower tier schools. As a parent you’d question if it’s better to pull your “average” student at a top tier school to be a top student at an “average” school.

Thorrez 4y ago

That sounds like class-based affirmative action, not race-based affirmative action. Is class-based affirmative action even called affirmative action? The article sounds like it would be in favor of class-based affirmative action.

runako 4y ago

> Here in Texas, any student from the top 10% of their high school is guaranteed a place at the flagship University of Texas at Austin. > high schools in underprivileged areas - rural or urban - will produce students who are nowhere nearly as prepared as students from elite or wealthy schools. The most cynical read of the Texas policy is that it is an end-around of the SCOTUS ruling that relies on continued, widespread school segregation in Texas. If Texas schools were not segregated by race and wealth, this policy would not have the result of producing the diverse classes that the University of Texas system desires. The university system depends on the unfairness of the K-12 system to achieve its narrow set of policy goals.