14 ms·

I know they've removed it since the time of the comments I will refer, but I still feel like I would not choose Lemmy to host a forum due to the conduct of the

by ufmace 4y ago

I know they've removed it since the time of the comments I will refer, but I still feel like I would not choose Lemmy to host a forum due to the conduct of the maintainers on the threads regarding the hard-coded slur_filter. See https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/622 https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/622. When the conversation with the project maintainers goes like: > Hey I don't think a hardcoded slur filter is a good idea due to good reasons a, b, and c that don't relate to actually being a troll or calling people slurs in a hostile way > Screw you racist, we're never going to remove it I feel like their priority is no longer to provide a flexible tool other people can use as a communication platform in the way that best suits their community, but instead to impose a narrow-minded agenda on everybody. After that, even if they change their mind later, who's to say they won't change it again at some point?

darthrupert 4y ago
>but instead to impose a narrow-minded agenda on everybody Having a slur filter is not "narrow-minded agenda", it's mainstream. And, well, it's open source, so anyone can maintain a fork that removes it with not much work.
- echelon 4y ago
  I'm LGBT and slurs are used socially within the in-group. Nevermind the fact that art such as film frequently relies on the use of slurs when dealing with this subject matter. We aren't protected in real life from being called words. I've certainly had my fair share hurled at me. By having to deal with it both at a young age and in adulthood, I've grown a thick skin and strong defense system. I worry that this attitude is more dangerous that what is trying to be accomplished.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    I'm a black American and I'm honestly sick of white people telling me when I can use the "n-word." I guess if they can't have it, no one can.
    - darthrupert 4y ago
      Good points from you and echelon. This (by which I mean hardcoded slur filtering in Lemmy/LemmyBB) is not a good thing. On the other hand, it's obviously within their rights to code such a thing into their own thing.
    - ChadNauseam 4y ago
      > I guess if they can't have it, no one can. I'm a white american and I think I agree with this. Making sure that only one race of people can say bad words on the internet doesn't seem practical to me. If we don't want some races saying a word, I don't see a way of preventing that which doesn't sacrifice either anonymity or black people being able to say that. There's only one implementation that I can imagine, and it's pretty impractical and ethically dubious. The idea is to have some kind of verification process to prove that you're a certain race, and somehow publicly store the public keys of people in each category. Then, when someone want to post a word that only some races can say, they submit a zero-knowledge proof that the message was written by someone who controls the private key of one of the public keys in the appropriate category. But I'm pretty sure that a registry of people organized by race is neither practical or desirable.
      - echelon 4y ago
        The only thing this does is make people invent new slurs.
        cy_hauser 4y ago
        Says the thromrod!
- llanowarelves 4y ago
  If you read the GitHub issue, the debate was not over its existence, just that instance operators should be able to configure it, which it sounds like they now can anyway (last comment on issue, he said it was added). There was no need, and is quite malicious, to imply and talk down to their own users/supporters of their software as anything"-ist" in their motivations, which in many cases is considered a more corrosive/ruinous label (court of public opinion) than "convicted criminal" (court of law) in the West.
- throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
- ufmace 4y ago
  Having a slur filter on a particular forum instance designed and chosen by the admins of that site is a perfectly good idea. They know the character of their forum, they can choose what is and is not appropriate to say. I think it does display a narrow-minded agenda for the authors of hosting software intended to potentially host a wide variety of forums to declare unilaterally that all sites hosted using their software must use a particular slur filter declared by them, or else create and maintain a fork.
drstewart 4y ago
Yeah, their responses to legitimate discourse make this project a non-starter for anyone serious about relying on open source software.
nortonham 4y ago
I just read the link. I don't think your characterization of the conversation is fair. Either way, it seems like the people behind the project have a CoC about what language is allowed. Further, the first response seems pretty reasonable to me from both a technical and ethical standpoint. I would add, lemmy doesn't seem to be about pure free speech, or free speech above all else. They've made it clear that slurs are not acceptable, and anyone who doesn't agree is free to go somewhere else.
- rjknight 4y ago
  Their principles are fine. It's just that hard-coding a list of English-language bad words, then matching on them in an extremely naive way, is not an excellent way of manifesting those principles in code. The Scunthorpe Problem[1] has been known for over 25 years. Plenty of people have names that incorporate a word that, on its own, would be a slur. Many English-language slurs are also words with entirely different meanings in other languages. Naively regex-matching all incoming text to see if it contains any of a hard-coded list of words means that you're going to get a lot of false positives, which the instance administrators can do nothing to prevent. Meanwhile, you are requiring only the level of creativity of an unremarkable eight-year-old on behalf of those who wish to evade the filter by creatively mis-spelling something. This is all very very obvious to anyone who has ever worked on content filtering, and not much less obvious to someone who hasn't and just sits thinking for five minutes or so. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scunthorpe_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scunthorpe_problem
  - nortonham 4y ago
    >Many English-language slurs are also words with entirely different meanings in other languages. Possibly. But looking at lemmy, it seems like most interaction is in English. As such, it seems reasonable to expect people to make a good faith effort to learn what isn't acceptable on a mostly english language website. >It's just that hard-coding a list of English-language bad words, then matching on them in an extremely naive way, is not an excellent way of manifesting those principles in code. I imagine there are better ways to do it, but this goes back to who owns the instance, and what type of community do they want to foster. More to the point, the github issue originally linked was resolved (to the extent it can be) by having user created filters. https://join-lemmy.org/docs/en/administration/configuration.html https://join-lemmy.org/docs/en/administration/configuration.... https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/1481 https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/1481
onetimeusename 4y ago
In case anyone was wondering, this was (is) the slur filter in question: https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/blob/b18ea3e0cc620c3f97f9804c09b92f193809b846/config/config.hjson#L8-L12 https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/blob/b18ea3e0cc620c3f97f98...
- gpm 4y ago
  > this was (is) the slur filter Was (not is) is correct: https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/blob/71aed94a000c951ddfdb464c82b36612495fe851/RELEASES.md#hardcoded-slur-filter-removed https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/blob/71aed94a000c951ddfdb4...
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    So it only took them two years to decide that it should be a configurable option and not hardcoded? Doesn't really solve the terrible implementation, but it's a step.
- cout 4y ago
  Wow, many of those words have legitimate non-slur uses. I can't imagine an automotive forum where users cannot discuss how to retard the timing on a distributor.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
  - drewzero1 4y ago
    > For example, there was someone who tried to talk about Stardew Valley and only managed to talk about Sremovedew Valley. Even beyond whole legitimate words, it filtered inside legitimate words-- you'd think people would consider the Sremovedhorpe problem by now.
LinuxBender 4y ago
I've seen a few recent projects hard coding things like this. I am not a fan. Not because I want to use the words but rather I want to be in control of the instance I am running. UnrealIRCD for example has an optional module for word filtering that is quite powerful and can be left entirely blank, or use regex to replace words, block words or kick someone off. I just prefer having flexibility and multiple options. One of the goals of open source was to give people freedom of choice. It's too bad as I really like the idea. I suspect and hope more things like this will pop up with recent events. Ultimately it is their project and their choice. I think I will stick with phpBB [1] as a forum, UnrealIRCD for the deep dark places [2], uMurmur for real time text and voice and the Mumla app to access uMurmur from my phone but that is just my personal preference. [1] - https://www.phpbb.com/ https://www.phpbb.com/ [2] - https://www.unrealircd.org/ https://www.unrealircd.org/ [3] - https://github.com/umurmur/umurmur https://github.com/umurmur/umurmur
- LinuxBender 4y ago
  I should add to this for completeness sake that if one finds UnrealIRCD to be too complicated, the simpler alternative is NGIRCD [1]. It takes all of maybe 4 or 5 minutes to get it set up and running with TLS from LetsEncrypt. It's dirt simple but sometimes quick and simple is useful in a pinch. [1] - https://ngircd.barton.de/ https://ngircd.barton.de/
iruoy 4y ago
It looks like this has been merged 6 days ago. https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/pull/2492 https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/pull/2492
friend_and_foe 4y ago
I agree with you, the dev team for Lemmy are hard line ideologues and it has hurt their original stated mission to take online communities out of the hands of corporations. As you noted, all that slur filter stuff was removed from the codebase some time ago, they've walked it back a bit, though they're still the same people of course. The software works. If you're interested in a different federating link aggregator there's also lotide https://sr.ht/~vpzom/lotide/ https://sr.ht/~vpzom/lotide/ which looks promising as well, and littr.me/littr.go/brutalinks https://sr.ht/~mariusor/brutalinks/ https://sr.ht/~mariusor/brutalinks/ which is single community oriented like HN.
micromacrofoot 4y ago
The slur filter is optional. You don't have to use it.
- huimang 4y ago
  It is now. But I see no point in using software that has such disdain for downstream users. I'd rather use software that treats me like an adult.
  - micromacrofoot 4y ago
    Adults are largely why software needs slur filters, so that's not really the high bar you'd expect it to be.
acdw 4y ago
Just hopping in to say : it's laughable to claim that open source projects have "hard-coded" anything. It's literally impossible to hard code things when anyone can download the source, edit it, compile it and run it on any machine they own
- cocoricamo 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_coding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_coding > Hard coding (also hard-coding or hardcoding) is the software development practice of embedding data directly into the source code of a program or other executable object, as opposed to obtaining the data from external sources or generating it at runtime.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Aeolun 4y ago
They’ve already said you are free to fork it. Why do you feel they are obligated to cater to your needs?
Gordonjcp 4y ago
The real Lemmy wouldn't allow a slur filter. He'd tell you to use all the slurs you want and accept the consequences, and if that's a punch on the nose then it ought to be a lesson to you. Be more Lemmy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemmy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemmy

by ufmace 4y ago

darthrupert 4y ago

>but instead to impose a narrow-minded agenda on everybody Having a slur filter is not "narrow-minded agenda", it's mainstream. And, well, it's open source, so anyone can maintain a fork that removes it with not much work.

echelon 4y ago
I'm LGBT and slurs are used socially within the in-group. Nevermind the fact that art such as film frequently relies on the use of slurs when dealing with this subject matter. We aren't protected in real life from being called words. I've certainly had my fair share hurled at me. By having to deal with it both at a young age and in adulthood, I've grown a thick skin and strong defense system. I worry that this attitude is more dangerous that what is trying to be accomplished.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  I'm a black American and I'm honestly sick of white people telling me when I can use the "n-word." I guess if they can't have it, no one can.
  - darthrupert 4y ago
    Good points from you and echelon. This (by which I mean hardcoded slur filtering in Lemmy/LemmyBB) is not a good thing. On the other hand, it's obviously within their rights to code such a thing into their own thing.
  - ChadNauseam 4y ago
    > I guess if they can't have it, no one can. I'm a white american and I think I agree with this. Making sure that only one race of people can say bad words on the internet doesn't seem practical to me. If we don't want some races saying a word, I don't see a way of preventing that which doesn't sacrifice either anonymity or black people being able to say that. There's only one implementation that I can imagine, and it's pretty impractical and ethically dubious. The idea is to have some kind of verification process to prove that you're a certain race, and somehow publicly store the public keys of people in each category. Then, when someone want to post a word that only some races can say, they submit a zero-knowledge proof that the message was written by someone who controls the private key of one of the public keys in the appropriate category. But I'm pretty sure that a registry of people organized by race is neither practical or desirable.
    - echelon 4y ago
      The only thing this does is make people invent new slurs.
      - cy_hauser 4y ago
        Says the thromrod!
llanowarelves 4y ago
If you read the GitHub issue, the debate was not over its existence, just that instance operators should be able to configure it, which it sounds like they now can anyway (last comment on issue, he said it was added). There was no need, and is quite malicious, to imply and talk down to their own users/supporters of their software as anything"-ist" in their motivations, which in many cases is considered a more corrosive/ruinous label (court of public opinion) than "convicted criminal" (court of law) in the West.
throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
ufmace 4y ago
Having a slur filter on a particular forum instance designed and chosen by the admins of that site is a perfectly good idea. They know the character of their forum, they can choose what is and is not appropriate to say. I think it does display a narrow-minded agenda for the authors of hosting software intended to potentially host a wide variety of forums to declare unilaterally that all sites hosted using their software must use a particular slur filter declared by them, or else create and maintain a fork.

drstewart 4y ago

Yeah, their responses to legitimate discourse make this project a non-starter for anyone serious about relying on open source software.

nortonham 4y ago

I just read the link. I don't think your characterization of the conversation is fair. Either way, it seems like the people behind the project have a CoC about what language is allowed. Further, the first response seems pretty reasonable to me from both a technical and ethical standpoint. I would add, lemmy doesn't seem to be about pure free speech, or free speech above all else. They've made it clear that slurs are not acceptable, and anyone who doesn't agree is free to go somewhere else.

rjknight 4y ago
Their principles are fine. It's just that hard-coding a list of English-language bad words, then matching on them in an extremely naive way, is not an excellent way of manifesting those principles in code. The Scunthorpe Problem[1] has been known for over 25 years. Plenty of people have names that incorporate a word that, on its own, would be a slur. Many English-language slurs are also words with entirely different meanings in other languages. Naively regex-matching all incoming text to see if it contains any of a hard-coded list of words means that you're going to get a lot of false positives, which the instance administrators can do nothing to prevent. Meanwhile, you are requiring only the level of creativity of an unremarkable eight-year-old on behalf of those who wish to evade the filter by creatively mis-spelling something. This is all very very obvious to anyone who has ever worked on content filtering, and not much less obvious to someone who hasn't and just sits thinking for five minutes or so. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scunthorpe_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scunthorpe_problem
- nortonham 4y ago
  >Many English-language slurs are also words with entirely different meanings in other languages. Possibly. But looking at lemmy, it seems like most interaction is in English. As such, it seems reasonable to expect people to make a good faith effort to learn what isn't acceptable on a mostly english language website. >It's just that hard-coding a list of English-language bad words, then matching on them in an extremely naive way, is not an excellent way of manifesting those principles in code. I imagine there are better ways to do it, but this goes back to who owns the instance, and what type of community do they want to foster. More to the point, the github issue originally linked was resolved (to the extent it can be) by having user created filters. https://join-lemmy.org/docs/en/administration/configuration.html https://join-lemmy.org/docs/en/administration/configuration.... https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/1481 https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/1481

onetimeusename 4y ago

In case anyone was wondering, this was (is) the slur filter in question: https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/blob/b18ea3e0cc620c3f97f9804c09b92f193809b846/config/config.hjson#L8-L12 https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/blob/b18ea3e0cc620c3f97f98...

gpm 4y ago
> this was (is) the slur filter Was (not is) is correct: https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/blob/71aed94a000c951ddfdb464c82b36612495fe851/RELEASES.md#hardcoded-slur-filter-removed https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/blob/71aed94a000c951ddfdb4...
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  So it only took them two years to decide that it should be a configurable option and not hardcoded? Doesn't really solve the terrible implementation, but it's a step.
cout 4y ago
Wow, many of those words have legitimate non-slur uses. I can't imagine an automotive forum where users cannot discuss how to retard the timing on a distributor.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
- drewzero1 4y ago
  > For example, there was someone who tried to talk about Stardew Valley and only managed to talk about Sremovedew Valley. Even beyond whole legitimate words, it filtered inside legitimate words-- you'd think people would consider the Sremovedhorpe problem by now.

LinuxBender 4y ago

I've seen a few recent projects hard coding things like this. I am not a fan. Not because I want to use the words but rather I want to be in control of the instance I am running. UnrealIRCD for example has an optional module for word filtering that is quite powerful and can be left entirely blank, or use regex to replace words, block words or kick someone off. I just prefer having flexibility and multiple options. One of the goals of open source was to give people freedom of choice. It's too bad as I really like the idea. I suspect and hope more things like this will pop up with recent events. Ultimately it is their project and their choice. I think I will stick with phpBB [1] as a forum, UnrealIRCD for the deep dark places [2], uMurmur for real time text and voice and the Mumla app to access uMurmur from my phone but that is just my personal preference. [1] - https://www.phpbb.com/ https://www.phpbb.com/ [2] - https://www.unrealircd.org/ https://www.unrealircd.org/ [3] - https://github.com/umurmur/umurmur https://github.com/umurmur/umurmur

LinuxBender 4y ago
I should add to this for completeness sake that if one finds UnrealIRCD to be too complicated, the simpler alternative is NGIRCD [1]. It takes all of maybe 4 or 5 minutes to get it set up and running with TLS from LetsEncrypt. It's dirt simple but sometimes quick and simple is useful in a pinch. [1] - https://ngircd.barton.de/ https://ngircd.barton.de/

iruoy 4y ago

It looks like this has been merged 6 days ago. https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/pull/2492 https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/pull/2492

friend_and_foe 4y ago

I agree with you, the dev team for Lemmy are hard line ideologues and it has hurt their original stated mission to take online communities out of the hands of corporations. As you noted, all that slur filter stuff was removed from the codebase some time ago, they've walked it back a bit, though they're still the same people of course. The software works. If you're interested in a different federating link aggregator there's also lotide https://sr.ht/~vpzom/lotide/ https://sr.ht/~vpzom/lotide/ which looks promising as well, and littr.me/littr.go/brutalinks https://sr.ht/~mariusor/brutalinks/ https://sr.ht/~mariusor/brutalinks/ which is single community oriented like HN.

micromacrofoot 4y ago

The slur filter is optional. You don't have to use it.

huimang 4y ago
It is now. But I see no point in using software that has such disdain for downstream users. I'd rather use software that treats me like an adult.
- micromacrofoot 4y ago
  Adults are largely why software needs slur filters, so that's not really the high bar you'd expect it to be.

acdw 4y ago

Just hopping in to say : it's laughable to claim that open source projects have "hard-coded" anything. It's literally impossible to hard code things when anyone can download the source, edit it, compile it and run it on any machine they own

cocoricamo 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_coding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_coding > Hard coding (also hard-coding or hardcoding) is the software development practice of embedding data directly into the source code of a program or other executable object, as opposed to obtaining the data from external sources or generating it at runtime.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Aeolun 4y ago

They’ve already said you are free to fork it. Why do you feel they are obligated to cater to your needs?

Gordonjcp 4y ago

The real Lemmy wouldn't allow a slur filter. He'd tell you to use all the slurs you want and accept the consequences, and if that's a punch on the nose then it ought to be a lesson to you. Be more Lemmy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemmy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemmy