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> Copilot can produce code verbatim, but it doesn't unless you specifically set up a situation to test it. It does not matter what a service can or cannot do.

> Copilot can produce code verbatim, but it doesn't unless you specifically set up a situation to test it. It does not matter what a service can or cannot do. We do not regulate based on ability, but on action. The service has an obligation to the license holders of the training data to not violate the license. The mechanism for which the license is violated is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is the code ended up somewhere it shouldn’t, and the service is the actor in the chain of responsibility that dropped the ball. The prompting of the service is irrelevant. If I ask you to reproduce a block of GPL code in my codebase and you do it, you violated the license. It does not matter that I primed you or lead you to that outcome. What matters is the legally protected code is somewhere it shouldn’t be.

lolinder 4y ago
> If I ask you to reproduce a block of GPL code in my codebase and you do it, you violated the license. It does not matter that I primed you or lead you to that outcome. What matters is the legally protected code is somewhere it shouldn’t be. This isn't accurate. If I reproduce GPL code in your codebase, that's perfectly acceptable as long as you obey the terms of the GPL when you go to distribute your code. In this hypothetical, my act of copying isn't restricted under the GPL license, it's your subsequent act of distribution that triggers the viral terms of the GPL. The big question that is still untested in court is whether Copilot itself constitutes a derivative work of its training data. If Copilot is derivative then Microsoft is infringing already. If Copilot is transformative then it is the responsibility of downstream consumers to ensure that they comply with the license of any code that may get reproduced verbatim. This question has not been ruled on, and it's not clear which direction a court will go.
- leereeves 4y ago
  > The big question that is still untested in court is whether Copilot itself constitutes a derivative work of its training data. Microsoft has a license to distribute the code used to train Copilot, and isn't distributing the Copilot model anyway, so it doesn't matter whether the model itself infringes copyright. Whereas that same question probably does matter for Stable Diffusion.
  - paulryanrogers 4y ago
    Microsoft is selling a service to put potentially copyrighted works into ones code, stripped of and disregarding its original license.
    - drran 4y ago
      Microsoft just calls others code as «public code». Public code is in public domain.
      - paulryanrogers 4y ago
        Pilot is regurgitating snippets of code still under copyright and not in the public domain. Some may consider publicly available code fair use, but the fact that they're selling access for commercial use may undercut that argument.
    - shagie 4y ago
      How is that different from a consultant who indiscriminately copies from Stack Overflow? Tangent to that is the "who gets sued and needs to fix it when a code audit is done?" Ultimately, the question is then "who is responsible for verifying that the code submitted to production isn't copying from sources that have incompatible licensing?"
      - chii 4y ago
        > How is that different from a consultant who indiscriminately copies from Stack Overflow? and how is that different from a student learning how to code off stackoverflow (or anywhere else for that matter), then reproducing some snippets/learnt code structure, in their employment?
        shagie 4y ago
        That's also an excellent example. Or a random employee copies some art work that is then published ( https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/07/post-office-owes-3-5m-for-using-wrong-statue-of-liberty-on-a-stamp/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/07/post-office-owes... ). You will note all the people that didn't get in trouble there - neither the photographer who created the image, nor Getty in making it available, nor the random employee who used it without checking its provenance. In all of these cases, it is (or would be) the organization that published the copyrighted work without doing the appropriate diligence on checking what it is, if it would be useable, and how it should be licensed. > The Post Office says it has new procedures in place to make sure that it doesn't make a mistake like this again. ... which is what companies who make use of AI models for generating content (be it art or code) should be doing to ensure that they're not accidentally infringing on existing copyrighted works.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
hnlmorg 4y ago
> It does not matter what a service can or cannot do. We do not regulate based on ability, but on action. Whether we agree with it or not, intellectual property laws have historically been regulated by ability as well as action. Hence why blank multimedia formats would often have additional taxes in some jurisdictions just in case someone chose to record copyrighted content onto them. And why graphics cards used to include an MPEG royalty in their consumer cost, regardless of whether that user planned to watch DVDs on their computer. Not saying I agree with this principle. Just that there is already a long history of precedence in this area. Like a lot of politics, ultimately it just comes down to who has the bigger lobbying budget.

lolinder 4y ago

> If I ask you to reproduce a block of GPL code in my codebase and you do it, you violated the license. It does not matter that I primed you or lead you to that outcome. What matters is the legally protected code is somewhere it shouldn’t be. This isn't accurate. If I reproduce GPL code in your codebase, that's perfectly acceptable as long as you obey the terms of the GPL when you go to distribute your code. In this hypothetical, my act of copying isn't restricted under the GPL license, it's your subsequent act of distribution that triggers the viral terms of the GPL. The big question that is still untested in court is whether Copilot itself constitutes a derivative work of its training data. If Copilot is derivative then Microsoft is infringing already. If Copilot is transformative then it is the responsibility of downstream consumers to ensure that they comply with the license of any code that may get reproduced verbatim. This question has not been ruled on, and it's not clear which direction a court will go.

leereeves 4y ago
> The big question that is still untested in court is whether Copilot itself constitutes a derivative work of its training data. Microsoft has a license to distribute the code used to train Copilot, and isn't distributing the Copilot model anyway, so it doesn't matter whether the model itself infringes copyright. Whereas that same question probably does matter for Stable Diffusion.
- paulryanrogers 4y ago
  Microsoft is selling a service to put potentially copyrighted works into ones code, stripped of and disregarding its original license.
  - drran 4y ago
    Microsoft just calls others code as «public code». Public code is in public domain.
    - paulryanrogers 4y ago
      Pilot is regurgitating snippets of code still under copyright and not in the public domain. Some may consider publicly available code fair use, but the fact that they're selling access for commercial use may undercut that argument.
  - shagie 4y ago
    How is that different from a consultant who indiscriminately copies from Stack Overflow? Tangent to that is the "who gets sued and needs to fix it when a code audit is done?" Ultimately, the question is then "who is responsible for verifying that the code submitted to production isn't copying from sources that have incompatible licensing?"
    - chii 4y ago
      > How is that different from a consultant who indiscriminately copies from Stack Overflow? and how is that different from a student learning how to code off stackoverflow (or anywhere else for that matter), then reproducing some snippets/learnt code structure, in their employment?
      - shagie 4y ago
        That's also an excellent example. Or a random employee copies some art work that is then published ( https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/07/post-office-owes-3-5m-for-using-wrong-statue-of-liberty-on-a-stamp/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/07/post-office-owes... ). You will note all the people that didn't get in trouble there - neither the photographer who created the image, nor Getty in making it available, nor the random employee who used it without checking its provenance. In all of these cases, it is (or would be) the organization that published the copyrighted work without doing the appropriate diligence on checking what it is, if it would be useable, and how it should be licensed. > The Post Office says it has new procedures in place to make sure that it doesn't make a mistake like this again. ... which is what companies who make use of AI models for generating content (be it art or code) should be doing to ensure that they're not accidentally infringing on existing copyrighted works.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

hnlmorg 4y ago

> It does not matter what a service can or cannot do. We do not regulate based on ability, but on action. Whether we agree with it or not, intellectual property laws have historically been regulated by ability as well as action. Hence why blank multimedia formats would often have additional taxes in some jurisdictions just in case someone chose to record copyrighted content onto them. And why graphics cards used to include an MPEG royalty in their consumer cost, regardless of whether that user planned to watch DVDs on their computer. Not saying I agree with this principle. Just that there is already a long history of precedence in this area. Like a lot of politics, ultimately it just comes down to who has the bigger lobbying budget.