4 ms·

Happy to see this getting updated, although it is bittersweet to realize it has a minuscule user base and that the UX will likely never change (the three-button

by rcarmo 4y ago

Happy to see this getting updated, although it is bittersweet to realize it has a minuscule user base and that the UX will likely never change (the three-button mouse UX simply isn’t a good fit for today’s laptops).

nix23 4y ago
>UX simply isn’t a good fit for today’s laptops Maybe you just have the wrong laptops ;)
- abudabi123 4y ago
  Members of the 9front dev-community have recommended the MNT Reform.
  - turminal 4y ago
    And various thinkpads.
- rcarmo 4y ago
  As said above, I have two Lenovos and a MacBook Pro here in front of me.
  - nix23 4y ago
    But is it a thinkpad with 3 buttons? ;)
    - rcarmo 4y ago
      X1 Carbon Gen 6, top of the line. The 3 button UX is still atrocious regardless of any way you try to defend it...
      - nix23 4y ago
        >The 3 button UX is still atrocious regardless Speak for yourself...
witheld 4y ago
I don’t know how people use trackpads for anything but causal use anyway, even on a Mac I find them to be a constant strain on my psyche compared to using my mouse- I always have one on me if I have my laptop
- causi 4y ago
  Clickpads are horrible, but touchpads aren't so bad when they have tactile buttons. That's why I always print some for mine.
  - exikyut 4y ago
    *Tries to imagine what the STL for a clickable button would look like*
    - causi 4y ago
      https://www.tinkercad.com/things/9igWZfgh07J https://www.tinkercad.com/things/9igWZfgh07J
      - exikyut 4y ago
        ooooh, I see. I was imagining some kind of complex clicky mechanism - of course that's not necessary here, the touchpad has one built-in, I didn't realize. Thanks for the clarification.
- meepmorp 4y ago
  By contrast, I don't know how people put up with mice. I discovered a cirque touchpad in the mid-90s and i've preferred them ever since. Of course, nothing's worse than the weirdos who like trackballs.
  - ad404b8a372f2b9 4y ago
    You wrist-movers just can't handle the way we shine wondrously with our bright reds and blues, how we glide smoothly and graciously across the screen with the tiniest motion of a single finger, using a trackball is the closest a man comes to godliness.
arexxbifs 4y ago
I'd say the UI/UX actually isn't that good, period. "Everything is actually really a file this time", plumbing, acme and rio are all very cool and powerful concepts, as is the idea that we shouldn't have to care about silly old TTY intricacies and that the mouse should be a first class citizen in our tools. However, the window management feels rather cumbersome and not offering decent keyboard navigation and shortcuts as a complement to chording is, to me, the single most annoying "feature", laptop or not.
- sitkack 4y ago
  Is it an inherent flaw in 9front or could it be fixed with an input router?
  - arexxbifs 4y ago
    I'm not sure what an input router is, but the concept of mouse chording is absolutely an inherent property of Plan 9/9front and Acme. To the best of my knowledge you cannot mark, cut, copy or paste text at all using the keyboard. Copying is especially cumbersome and involves a three-button chord in conjunction with some precision pointing (first to mark the text, then to where you want it pasted). I'm sure this could be implemented using keystrokes as well and the source code is of course available. However, I doubt such a change would be accepted upstream. You could say it's a central point in the "Plan 9 philosophy". https://plan9.io/sys/doc/acme/acme.html https://plan9.io/sys/doc/acme/acme.html
    - sitkack 4y ago
      What if you had a OCR overlay that had a DOM like structure along with coordinates? You could hit a key combo, and then the text dom could float over the page and you could select nodes of it using your keyboard modifiers of choice (vim, emacs, etc). You could also read the process memory directly by a supervisory program, like a debugger, to extract or insert text directly. It would be like idea implantation. Does that make sense?
      - 4y ago
samstave 4y ago
I use a five button mouse...(6 if include scroll wheel)
somat 4y ago
With regard to laptop, you need a thinkpad. it caught me off-guard when I picked up mine many years ago, because I was not looking for three buttons on a laptop. but it quickly became my favorite feature. As an X11 user, I think that select/single button paste is one of the better features of the platform. I miss it terribly when on windows.
- rcarmo 4y ago
  I have two Lenovos and a MacBook Pro here in front of me. Believe me, when I say Plan9/9front/rio has a crap UX on laptops, it isn't due to lack of trying. Even when I ran an Plan9 "terminal" on a Pi with a three-button mouse, the UX was bad.
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  > As an X11 user, I think that select/single button paste is one of the better features of the platform. I miss it terribly when on windows. As a compulsive text-highlighter, I've always found it useless. Between that and not being able to copy-and-replace with it, I'd say I've used it by accident at least as often as I've used it on purpose. And I've been using X-window systems since before 3-button (no scrollwheel) mice went all-but extinct, so I should have been able to get used to it if I was ever going to.
  - somat 4y ago
    I can see that would be annoying, however for me... Imagine if every time you hit ctrl+c or ctrl+v a dialog opened up asking if you are sure you want to copy or paste. a bit annoying, breaks your train of thought, and doubles your keypresses. That is what it feels like to go from x11 to windows.
MisterTea 4y ago
> UX will likely never change (the three-button mouse UX simply isn’t a good fit for today’s laptops). Patches welcome.
calvinmorrison 4y ago
The UI and UX have been evolving. Looks like riow is part of the mainline now, bar(1) was added. Not to mention zuke and some other great programs written in the last year or two by ftrvxmtrx, who's doing a lot of heavy lifting. There's a video player added, and lots of other new cool stuff. See shithub.us for more.

by rcarmo 4y ago

nix23 4y ago

>UX simply isn’t a good fit for today’s laptops Maybe you just have the wrong laptops ;)

abudabi123 4y ago
Members of the 9front dev-community have recommended the MNT Reform.
- turminal 4y ago
  And various thinkpads.
rcarmo 4y ago
As said above, I have two Lenovos and a MacBook Pro here in front of me.
- nix23 4y ago
  But is it a thinkpad with 3 buttons? ;)
  - rcarmo 4y ago
    X1 Carbon Gen 6, top of the line. The 3 button UX is still atrocious regardless of any way you try to defend it...
    - nix23 4y ago
      >The 3 button UX is still atrocious regardless Speak for yourself...

witheld 4y ago

I don’t know how people use trackpads for anything but causal use anyway, even on a Mac I find them to be a constant strain on my psyche compared to using my mouse- I always have one on me if I have my laptop

causi 4y ago
Clickpads are horrible, but touchpads aren't so bad when they have tactile buttons. That's why I always print some for mine.
- exikyut 4y ago
  *Tries to imagine what the STL for a clickable button would look like*
  - causi 4y ago
    https://www.tinkercad.com/things/9igWZfgh07J https://www.tinkercad.com/things/9igWZfgh07J
    - exikyut 4y ago
      ooooh, I see. I was imagining some kind of complex clicky mechanism - of course that's not necessary here, the touchpad has one built-in, I didn't realize. Thanks for the clarification.
meepmorp 4y ago
By contrast, I don't know how people put up with mice. I discovered a cirque touchpad in the mid-90s and i've preferred them ever since. Of course, nothing's worse than the weirdos who like trackballs.
- ad404b8a372f2b9 4y ago
  You wrist-movers just can't handle the way we shine wondrously with our bright reds and blues, how we glide smoothly and graciously across the screen with the tiniest motion of a single finger, using a trackball is the closest a man comes to godliness.

arexxbifs 4y ago

I'd say the UI/UX actually isn't that good, period. "Everything is actually really a file this time", plumbing, acme and rio are all very cool and powerful concepts, as is the idea that we shouldn't have to care about silly old TTY intricacies and that the mouse should be a first class citizen in our tools. However, the window management feels rather cumbersome and not offering decent keyboard navigation and shortcuts as a complement to chording is, to me, the single most annoying "feature", laptop or not.

sitkack 4y ago
Is it an inherent flaw in 9front or could it be fixed with an input router?
- arexxbifs 4y ago
  I'm not sure what an input router is, but the concept of mouse chording is absolutely an inherent property of Plan 9/9front and Acme. To the best of my knowledge you cannot mark, cut, copy or paste text at all using the keyboard. Copying is especially cumbersome and involves a three-button chord in conjunction with some precision pointing (first to mark the text, then to where you want it pasted). I'm sure this could be implemented using keystrokes as well and the source code is of course available. However, I doubt such a change would be accepted upstream. You could say it's a central point in the "Plan 9 philosophy". https://plan9.io/sys/doc/acme/acme.html https://plan9.io/sys/doc/acme/acme.html
  - sitkack 4y ago
    What if you had a OCR overlay that had a DOM like structure along with coordinates? You could hit a key combo, and then the text dom could float over the page and you could select nodes of it using your keyboard modifiers of choice (vim, emacs, etc). You could also read the process memory directly by a supervisory program, like a debugger, to extract or insert text directly. It would be like idea implantation. Does that make sense?
    - 4y ago

samstave 4y ago

I use a five button mouse...(6 if include scroll wheel)

somat 4y ago

With regard to laptop, you need a thinkpad. it caught me off-guard when I picked up mine many years ago, because I was not looking for three buttons on a laptop. but it quickly became my favorite feature. As an X11 user, I think that select/single button paste is one of the better features of the platform. I miss it terribly when on windows.

rcarmo 4y ago
I have two Lenovos and a MacBook Pro here in front of me. Believe me, when I say Plan9/9front/rio has a crap UX on laptops, it isn't due to lack of trying. Even when I ran an Plan9 "terminal" on a Pi with a three-button mouse, the UX was bad.
yamtaddle 4y ago
> As an X11 user, I think that select/single button paste is one of the better features of the platform. I miss it terribly when on windows. As a compulsive text-highlighter, I've always found it useless. Between that and not being able to copy-and-replace with it, I'd say I've used it by accident at least as often as I've used it on purpose. And I've been using X-window systems since before 3-button (no scrollwheel) mice went all-but extinct, so I should have been able to get used to it if I was ever going to.
- somat 4y ago
  I can see that would be annoying, however for me... Imagine if every time you hit ctrl+c or ctrl+v a dialog opened up asking if you are sure you want to copy or paste. a bit annoying, breaks your train of thought, and doubles your keypresses. That is what it feels like to go from x11 to windows.

MisterTea 4y ago

> UX will likely never change (the three-button mouse UX simply isn’t a good fit for today’s laptops). Patches welcome.

calvinmorrison 4y ago

The UI and UX have been evolving. Looks like riow is part of the mainline now, bar(1) was added. Not to mention zuke and some other great programs written in the last year or two by ftrvxmtrx, who's doing a lot of heavy lifting. There's a video player added, and lots of other new cool stuff. See shithub.us for more.