5 ms·

I'm curious as to why affirmative action in the US has always been race-based and not economic-status or household income based? Asking as someone with no skin

I'm curious as to why affirmative action in the US has always been race-based and not economic-status or household income based? Asking as someone with no skin in the game; I'm merely curious if anyone has any constructive opinions on why they think economic status based affirmative action may/may not work?

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> why affirmative action in the US has always been race-based and not economic-status or household income based? We have both. We reserve the term “affirmative action” for race-based tilting. But means-based aid is also significant.
- function_seven 4y ago
  > But means-based aid is also significant. Does this refer to scholarships and other forms of tuition assistance, or does it also include admissions criteria as well?
kennend3 4y ago
Socioeconomic status is a much better goal if you want to "even the playing field" but it has serious flaws. The most obvious is it is incredibly easy to game: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/incomeless-students-spent-57-million-on-vancouver-homes-in-past-two-years/article31892652/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/income... Any ideas on how students with no income managed to own $57 million in houses? Would these people qualify for a socio-economic advantage when applying for school?
- AnonCoward42 4y ago
  The term "socioeconomic" is really malleable, when in actuality you probably meant "low income" or "poor". This might be a better measure, but can be gamed also as you point out. This however doesn't necessarily mean the measure is bad.
  - kennend3 4y ago
    No, i meant socioeconomic factors... "What are socioeconomic examples? Social and economic factors, such as income, education, employment, community safety, and social supports can significantly affect how well and how long we live. These factors affect our ability to make healthy choices, afford medical care and housing, manage stress, and more." Notice it includes "Income"? it includes other factors as well such as poor safety nets, etc.
    - AnonCoward42 4y ago
      > "What are socioeconomic examples? Social and economic factors, such as income, education, employment, community safety, and social supports can significantly affect how well and how long we live. These factors affect our ability to make healthy choices, afford medical care and housing, manage stress, and more." This is a bit non-sensical. If you take education as an example for college admission, you need to support the ones that are the least suitable for exactly that. I know you certainly don't mean that, but you said it. Make it concrete and you notice the error. Socio-economic is a handwavy term.
- thatfrenchguy 4y ago
  This is pretty easy to bypass by looking at parents' tax returns from the past 20 years, plus their assets.
  - kennend3 4y ago
    Because no one has ever worked for cash and lied about it? Do you suspect that someone who launders dirty money for a living did their taxes and listed "money launderer" as occupation and reported their income? Assets like this are often hidden behind shell companies to prevent law enforcement from taking them under "proceeds of crime" charges.
    - kevinsundar 4y ago
      There are so few people this would apply to (wealthy individuals with large amounts of unreported cash income who are applying to college) that its not even worth considering as an edge case for college admissions. The point isn't to eliminate every possible way college admissions can be gamed but to get the best method that works for the majority of applicants.
      - kennend3 4y ago
        > There are so few people this would apply to (wealthy individuals with large amounts of unreported cash income who are applying to college) that its not even worth considering as an edge case for college admissions. You would be mistaken.. This is actually a rather serious problem. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/incomeless-students-spent-57-million-on-vancouver-homes-in-past-two-years/article31892652/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/income... https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/douglas-todd-vancouver-still-suffering-fallout-from-students-buying-mansions https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/douglas-todd-van... https://torontosun.com/2016/05/12/311-million-vancouver-mansion-owned-by-student https://torontosun.com/2016/05/12/311-million-vancouver-mans... https://www.vice.com/en/article/wd7wz4/student-owns-this-31-million-vancouver-mansion https://www.vice.com/en/article/wd7wz4/student-owns-this-31-...
- kevinsundar 4y ago
  Race is easy to game too, in fact far easier. I know people who were around 5% Hispanic who would then write Hispanic on college applications. They're technically not lying. There's also just plenty of people that just straight up lie about their race on college applications. It's not like its being verified at all. I went to high school with a lot of White - Asian mixed kids. None of them wrote Asian on their college applications. I also knew a lot of Indians (like me) who'd select Other in order to avoid being denied opportunities due to being Asian.
  - kennend3 4y ago
    > Race is easy to game too, in fact far easier. Strongly agree. Here (Canada) we have a pandemic of "pretendians" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretendian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretendian People who make fake claims to gain an advantage.
  - Overtonwindow 4y ago
    There was even a United States senator who claimed to be Native American, was awarded academic positions based on that, but a DNA test proved her native ancestry to be so minuscule as to not even be measurable.
    - hot_gril 4y ago
      Elizabeth Warren
    - nereye 4y ago
      The part about 'was awarded academic positions based on that' is debatable, e.g. this claim was investigated by a newspaper (article below is titled 'Ethnicity not a factor in Elizabeth Warren's rise in law'): https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2018/09/01/did-claiming-native-american-heritage-actually-help-elizabeth-warren-get-ahead-but-complicated/wUZZcrKKEOUv5Spnb7IO0K/story.html https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2018/09/01/did-claim...
      - whimsicalism 4y ago
smeyer 4y ago
I'm a Harvard alumnus but obviously don't speak on behalf of Harvard. The Harvard admissions office does consider folks from disadvantaged socioeconomic backgrounds, and does not only look at race. There is a dirty history to the origins of schools steering away from entrance exams towards more holistic admissions, but it really is the case that they consider what opportunities were available to students based on the high schools they attended, whether applicants had time for extracurricular activities or were busy working a job or caring for a family member, and plenty of other circumstances that are not just limited to pure meritocracy and race.
8note 4y ago
The US has traditionally built laws to hinder one race in particular. Affirmative action targeting race aims to compensate for some of those
- batmaniam 4y ago
  That's true, and those laws are supposed to right decades of misappropriation of education, finance, basic rights back to those that were wronged. The intent is sound, but the execution of it? I'm not sure it's been done fairly. Consider this: Asians have been discriminated in many cases in the past as well. Goes way back to the days of slavery: > After slavery was abolished in the United States, Chinese laborers were imported to the South as cheap labor to replace freed Blacks on the plantations [...] Starting as early as 1865, Southern newspapers began printing editorials and letters calling for Chinese labor to be the new labor supply.[2] This interest was sparked in part by accounts boasting that the Chinese contract labor attributed to the increase in Cuban agricultural imports. The Chinese effectively became the new labor supply but were positioned societally at the same level as African Americans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Labor_in_the_Southern_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Labor_in_the_Southern_... Then you have the railroads era, WWII internments camp era, the Chinese Exclusion Act, 2021 Atlanta Spa shooting, and more. Then factor in all the other racist policies against Asians: minority roles in film, in white collar job sector, bamboo ceilings, violence/assaults against asians vs police response, US government witchhunt on Asian researchers during Covid, dealing with "Model Minority" myth... Yet, Asians are constantly excluded when it comes to Affirmative action in these modern times, why is that? We can clearly see they've had an unpleasant history too, so why are institutions increasingly hostile against them? This isn't even restricted to Colleges, even though the lawsuit stemmed from it, we can see it affecting the workplace as well: > "Asian Americans Are the Least Likely Group in the U.S. to Be Promoted to Management" https://hbr.org/2018/05/asian-americans-are-the-least-likely-group-in-the-u-s-to-be-promoted-to-management https://hbr.org/2018/05/asian-americans-are-the-least-likely... > "Pfizer defends exclusion of Asian and white applicants in fellowship, says it’s ‘non-discriminatory’" https://www.yahoo.com/video/pfizer-defends-exclusion-asian-white-201725571.html https://www.yahoo.com/video/pfizer-defends-exclusion-asian-w... We should embrace Asians to be part of the diversity and Affirmative Action policies, not reject them, so I feel the current implementation of AA needs to be addressed, which I hope the ongoing college lawsuit will do.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

> why affirmative action in the US has always been race-based and not economic-status or household income based? We have both. We reserve the term “affirmative action” for race-based tilting. But means-based aid is also significant.

function_seven 4y ago
> But means-based aid is also significant. Does this refer to scholarships and other forms of tuition assistance, or does it also include admissions criteria as well?

kennend3 4y ago

Socioeconomic status is a much better goal if you want to "even the playing field" but it has serious flaws. The most obvious is it is incredibly easy to game: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/incomeless-students-spent-57-million-on-vancouver-homes-in-past-two-years/article31892652/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/income... Any ideas on how students with no income managed to own $57 million in houses? Would these people qualify for a socio-economic advantage when applying for school?

AnonCoward42 4y ago
The term "socioeconomic" is really malleable, when in actuality you probably meant "low income" or "poor". This might be a better measure, but can be gamed also as you point out. This however doesn't necessarily mean the measure is bad.
- kennend3 4y ago
  No, i meant socioeconomic factors... "What are socioeconomic examples? Social and economic factors, such as income, education, employment, community safety, and social supports can significantly affect how well and how long we live. These factors affect our ability to make healthy choices, afford medical care and housing, manage stress, and more." Notice it includes "Income"? it includes other factors as well such as poor safety nets, etc.
  - AnonCoward42 4y ago
    > "What are socioeconomic examples? Social and economic factors, such as income, education, employment, community safety, and social supports can significantly affect how well and how long we live. These factors affect our ability to make healthy choices, afford medical care and housing, manage stress, and more." This is a bit non-sensical. If you take education as an example for college admission, you need to support the ones that are the least suitable for exactly that. I know you certainly don't mean that, but you said it. Make it concrete and you notice the error. Socio-economic is a handwavy term.
thatfrenchguy 4y ago
This is pretty easy to bypass by looking at parents' tax returns from the past 20 years, plus their assets.
- kennend3 4y ago
  Because no one has ever worked for cash and lied about it? Do you suspect that someone who launders dirty money for a living did their taxes and listed "money launderer" as occupation and reported their income? Assets like this are often hidden behind shell companies to prevent law enforcement from taking them under "proceeds of crime" charges.
  - kevinsundar 4y ago
    There are so few people this would apply to (wealthy individuals with large amounts of unreported cash income who are applying to college) that its not even worth considering as an edge case for college admissions. The point isn't to eliminate every possible way college admissions can be gamed but to get the best method that works for the majority of applicants.
    - kennend3 4y ago
      > There are so few people this would apply to (wealthy individuals with large amounts of unreported cash income who are applying to college) that its not even worth considering as an edge case for college admissions. You would be mistaken.. This is actually a rather serious problem. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/incomeless-students-spent-57-million-on-vancouver-homes-in-past-two-years/article31892652/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/income... https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/douglas-todd-vancouver-still-suffering-fallout-from-students-buying-mansions https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/douglas-todd-van... https://torontosun.com/2016/05/12/311-million-vancouver-mansion-owned-by-student https://torontosun.com/2016/05/12/311-million-vancouver-mans... https://www.vice.com/en/article/wd7wz4/student-owns-this-31-million-vancouver-mansion https://www.vice.com/en/article/wd7wz4/student-owns-this-31-...
kevinsundar 4y ago
Race is easy to game too, in fact far easier. I know people who were around 5% Hispanic who would then write Hispanic on college applications. They're technically not lying. There's also just plenty of people that just straight up lie about their race on college applications. It's not like its being verified at all. I went to high school with a lot of White - Asian mixed kids. None of them wrote Asian on their college applications. I also knew a lot of Indians (like me) who'd select Other in order to avoid being denied opportunities due to being Asian.
- kennend3 4y ago
  > Race is easy to game too, in fact far easier. Strongly agree. Here (Canada) we have a pandemic of "pretendians" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretendian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretendian People who make fake claims to gain an advantage.
- Overtonwindow 4y ago
  There was even a United States senator who claimed to be Native American, was awarded academic positions based on that, but a DNA test proved her native ancestry to be so minuscule as to not even be measurable.
  - hot_gril 4y ago
    Elizabeth Warren
  - nereye 4y ago
    The part about 'was awarded academic positions based on that' is debatable, e.g. this claim was investigated by a newspaper (article below is titled 'Ethnicity not a factor in Elizabeth Warren's rise in law'): https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2018/09/01/did-claiming-native-american-heritage-actually-help-elizabeth-warren-get-ahead-but-complicated/wUZZcrKKEOUv5Spnb7IO0K/story.html https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2018/09/01/did-claim...
    - whimsicalism 4y ago

smeyer 4y ago

I'm a Harvard alumnus but obviously don't speak on behalf of Harvard. The Harvard admissions office does consider folks from disadvantaged socioeconomic backgrounds, and does not only look at race. There is a dirty history to the origins of schools steering away from entrance exams towards more holistic admissions, but it really is the case that they consider what opportunities were available to students based on the high schools they attended, whether applicants had time for extracurricular activities or were busy working a job or caring for a family member, and plenty of other circumstances that are not just limited to pure meritocracy and race.

8note 4y ago

The US has traditionally built laws to hinder one race in particular. Affirmative action targeting race aims to compensate for some of those

batmaniam 4y ago
That's true, and those laws are supposed to right decades of misappropriation of education, finance, basic rights back to those that were wronged. The intent is sound, but the execution of it? I'm not sure it's been done fairly. Consider this: Asians have been discriminated in many cases in the past as well. Goes way back to the days of slavery: > After slavery was abolished in the United States, Chinese laborers were imported to the South as cheap labor to replace freed Blacks on the plantations [...] Starting as early as 1865, Southern newspapers began printing editorials and letters calling for Chinese labor to be the new labor supply.[2] This interest was sparked in part by accounts boasting that the Chinese contract labor attributed to the increase in Cuban agricultural imports. The Chinese effectively became the new labor supply but were positioned societally at the same level as African Americans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Labor_in_the_Southern_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Labor_in_the_Southern_... Then you have the railroads era, WWII internments camp era, the Chinese Exclusion Act, 2021 Atlanta Spa shooting, and more. Then factor in all the other racist policies against Asians: minority roles in film, in white collar job sector, bamboo ceilings, violence/assaults against asians vs police response, US government witchhunt on Asian researchers during Covid, dealing with "Model Minority" myth... Yet, Asians are constantly excluded when it comes to Affirmative action in these modern times, why is that? We can clearly see they've had an unpleasant history too, so why are institutions increasingly hostile against them? This isn't even restricted to Colleges, even though the lawsuit stemmed from it, we can see it affecting the workplace as well: > "Asian Americans Are the Least Likely Group in the U.S. to Be Promoted to Management" https://hbr.org/2018/05/asian-americans-are-the-least-likely-group-in-the-u-s-to-be-promoted-to-management https://hbr.org/2018/05/asian-americans-are-the-least-likely... > "Pfizer defends exclusion of Asian and white applicants in fellowship, says it’s ‘non-discriminatory’" https://www.yahoo.com/video/pfizer-defends-exclusion-asian-white-201725571.html https://www.yahoo.com/video/pfizer-defends-exclusion-asian-w... We should embrace Asians to be part of the diversity and Affirmative Action policies, not reject them, so I feel the current implementation of AA needs to be addressed, which I hope the ongoing college lawsuit will do.