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Let's say you need open heart surgery. Doctor one has a 3.9 GPA from Harvard medical. Doctor two barely passed your state's medical school Which do you want
by kennend3 4y ago
Let's say you need open heart surgery.
Doctor one has a 3.9 GPA from Harvard medical.
Doctor two barely passed your state's medical school
Which do you want doing your operation?
The "meritocracy trap" often caves into "wealth and privilege" and this is not meritocracy.
- whimsicalism 4y agoThose signals are not as important to being a successful surgeon as you think.
- VLM 4y agoThe problem with redefining, such as redefining success, is it eliminates any possibility of a conversation.
- whimsicalism 4y agoYour comment is opaque. As far as I know, a successful surgical operation is generally pretty cut and dry. No redefining here.
- VLM 4y agoI mean with reference to a sophistry technique to shut down discussion. Were the individual example to be computer scientists instead of surgeons, then the definition of a successful computer scientist can be redefined to a suitable outcome as proof that racial discrimination does not harm consumers of surgeons or computer scientists. Its avoiding the core discussion via wordplay. Furthermore if no individual example were provided then the sophistry method would be to complain there is no specific example of an individual being harmed therefore there is no harm and racial discrimination is an inherently good process.
- whimsicalism 4y agoSure, I get the phenomenon you are describing. It is unclear how this relates to my comment. My comment is merely that the criterion you are mentioning is actually not a great one for selecting who to perform surgery on you.
- anotherman554 4y agoSince we're talking about surgery, wouldn't hand-eye coordination be more important than the GPA from Harvard medical?
- polski-g 4y agoIf Harvard graded appropriately, then GPA would be a proxy for hand-eye coordination.
- anotherman554 4y agoI don't know why you believe the purpose of medical school is to predict how good a doctor is at surgery. Most doctors aren't going to be surgeons. I've never been to med school but my understanding is you learn how to be a doctor in residency, where there are no grades. Medical school gives you theoretical knowledge but not the practical knowledge you need to actually do the work.
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- tsimionescu 4y agoWell, someone will get either doctor. Whichever I get is essentially down to luck, so why does this question matter?
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- orangepurple 4y agoLots of people don't care about what doctor they get. I have heard endless stories from doctors that see patients all day where so many patients don't care about their own health to the point of having limbs amputated and shrugging it off like its no big deal. Or having complications from diabetes and declining free-to-them care. Not taking medication. There are so many of these people. They seem to be mostly on Medicare from the stories. If you care about your health there are options out there unless you have to deal with the VA because of your coverage. Then you're genuinely screwed. For those that don't care about their care there are reasonable defaults available.
- tsimionescu 4y agoAre you claiming that only the 3.9 GPA Harvard doctor is able to function in their profession?
- orangepurple 4y agoNo
- nradov 4y agoStudies have shown that surgery outcomes are highly correlated with experience in that particular procedure. So if I needed a heart bypass operation, I would want the surgeon who does 5 of them every week and nothing else. Where they attended medical school is unimportant. You might have a stronger argument in other medical specialties where theory is more important. But heart surgeons are more like athletes in a way.
- kennend3 4y agoSO.. tell us what would allow a surgeon to start operating in the first place? You simply presented a chicken and egg problem... Does the mediocre surgeon get all the surgeries and therefor become excellent at it?
- snovv_crash 4y agoWe should do what pilots have to do: start with simulators, then move to copilot, then primary pilot with an experienced copilot, then finally primary with inexperienced copilot. The medical system gets the later parts right, but there are no simulation components at the beginning. IMO it would even be helpful for surgeons to do some time as carpenter, mechanic, fitter/turner etc for some time to really drill the hand/eye before they start on humans.
- kennend3 4y ago> We should do what pilots have to do: start with simulators, then move to copilot, then primary pilot with an experienced copilot, then finally primary with inexperienced copilot. T And this is EXACLY what they do, using cadavers, schooling, and internships. Their work on cadavers is graded, much like most of what they do. This goes back full circle, grades do have an input into the quality of a surgeon. It may not be the "best" or "only" indicator but it shouldnt be outright discounted. People with high GPA's work hard to get them and have a high level of understanding of the topics at hand. My ex is excellent in math and always scored very high on tests, but she is not very practical. If i a math problem i'd have full confidence her answer was correct. If i asked her some non-math questions my trust would be adjusted.
- gilbetron 4y agoThe Doctor that has performed the most open heart surgeries, which is probably one of the two that passed the state's medical school.
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- pevey 4y agoI would want the one with the best track record of outcomes for the specific surgery that I needed.
- emiliobumachar 4y agoMe too. Unfortunately new doctors have to start practicing every now and then, or we'll run out of experienced ones. Which new surgeon would you prefer.
- adolph 4y agooutcomes > preferences Contrary to the a priori hypothesis that care would be compromised by so many of the top cardiologists being gone, they find that adjusted mortality for high-risk heart failure and cardiac arrest is lower at teaching hospitals during the cardiology meetings than during the rest of the year. And although patients were less likely to get a percutaneous coronary intervention for a myocardial infarction during the convention times, there was no associated decrement on myocardial infarction–associated mortality. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2038976 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...
- CJefferson 4y agoTwo students are under consideration to get into University to become surgeons. One student went to the most expensive private school and had private tuition. They recieved AAABB. Anothers student went to a poor school and never had private tuition and recieved ABBBB. Which should be accepted for a single University place?
- dixie_land 4y agoThe one with more As. Standardized tests are actually one of the most fair ways to evaluate two candidates. y = mx + b regardless of your skin color or family wealth. Is it perfect? no; is it more fair than the alternatives? I think so
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- fzeroracer 4y agoThe best engineers I've worked with were ones that performed terribly at college, so I'm not sure about using GPA as a proxy for how well they perform in the workforce.
- jmull 4y agoUh... I (and everyone else) wants the one who is the best heart surgeon!!! Ask the wrong question and you will rarely get the right answer. Good lord, this really encapsulates the level of this debate, and how it is about anything but actual merit.
- epgui 4y agoThis is a funny example because I'm probably the only person in this thread who went to medical school (MD programme in Canada, but did not complete or obtain my degree), and I think this is a bad example. The meritocracy trap obviously does not imply that competence/merit does not matter: it implies only that we should be much more careful and critical about whether we measure competence/merit fairly and properly, especially a posteriori. I would say that your example illustrates a very shortsighted conception of competence/merit.
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