4 ms·

I stopped reading when he brought the Bible into things. I have no time to waste on that sort of thing.

by tensor 4y ago

thepasswordis 4y ago
You have no time to waste on western civilization's foundational text? edit: to the people who want to argue this: show me a body of work which has been more influential on western society. What people seem to identify as 'western' values are largely just judeo christian values. The influence of the bible is so ingrained into our society that you will live out the values within it even if you don't realize it. And that kindof makes sense, doesn't it? Some guys wrote down some stories which at the time were being passed orally, these stories became really popular, and the society which was telling these stories and using them to pass their moral philosophy became prosperous. The Catholic Church was a (not so)pseudo government in Europe for almost 2000 years, and was the leader and authority in philosophy and art. The idea that somehow none of this is foundational to western civilization is absurd and completely ahistoric.
- dekhn 4y ago
  You mean the Odyssey?
- Matl 4y ago
  Not everyone eats everything Jordan Peterson says. The values you say are 'Christian values' are expressed, (in many cases more eloquently), in classical Greek texts. Values like democracy itself are indeed much more prominent there than in the Bible, which is why I imagine you're seeing the sort of replies that you are.
  - thepasswordis 4y ago
    This is so frustrating to me. People hear "the bible is foundational" and I think they're hearing "the magical stories in the bible are literally true. God sat on a cloud and poofed western civilization into existence!" What I'm saying is that, the Dawkins sense, The Bible was an extremely successful meme. I don't think that's even up for debate. >Not everyone eats everything Jordan Peterson says. People need to find more internet people to hate. Christopher Hitchens was saying the same thing to impressionable teenagers in the early 2000s, and so was Richard Dawkins. Before that there was this little known German Philosopher saying something similar too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#Death_of_God_and_nihilism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#Death_of_G...
    - Kbelicius 4y ago
      Just because a book and an institution were present for the last 2000 years doesn't mean that they were the foundation of a society that exists today. Especially a society that most likely exists despite of them then because of them.
      - dekhn 4y ago
        I think the 30 Years War, which tore apart Europe for decades over a disagreement over details in the interpretation of Christianity (and the Protestant and Catholic bibles differ). I would say at the very least the bible is one of the most important pieces of literature in the world, has had a tremendous impact in all its forms, played a role in the formation of the modern world's moral codes, and at the same time, is not the unique, one, and only "foundational" document leading to the modern western world- there isn't one. (FWIW, I really do respect the King James bible as a world of literature, even though I am agnostic and consider the Silmarillion to be a more enjoyable origin story)
    - joenot443 4y ago
      Namedropping Peterson when he has 0 relevance to the conversation at hand is just juvenile flamebait and a pretty easy tell that the GP isn't really acting in good faith. I don't think @matl is interested in a serious conversation about the historical relevancy of the Bible, nor are they equipped to have one.
      - Matl 4y ago
        > Namedropping Peterson when he has 0 relevance to the conversation at hand He absolutely has relevance considering he's the most recent prominent public figure pushing the Bible as "the foundational stories" without which we cannot live. Yes, there are others and it may be that OP arrived at this independently, but I've heard this most from his followers. I acknowledge that I may've been slightly nudged by OP's unfounded "You have no time to waste on western civilization's foundational text?", which sounded extremely judgmental to me, but shouldn't have jumped on the bait.
- lern_too_spel 4y ago
  Euclid's Elements is the foundational text of western civilization, popularizing reasoning from first principles. The Bible is a foundational text of western mythology, not much different from the mythological texts of any other part of the world. You will find no mention of The Bible or any of its characters in The Federalist Papers. You will find much discussion of classical governments and several references to Montesquieu. John Locke specifically cited Euclid as his influence and structured his writing to match. Lincoln, perhaps the most stridently moral of America's presidents, was known as the village atheist when he was a young man, studied Gibbon's The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, which put much of the blame on Christianity, and Paine's The Age of Reason. He carried Euclid's Elements with him until he could derive any of the propositions in the first six books at will. It is only by the power of the ideas that Euclid's Elements (written in Alexandria) survives today. The Library of Alexandria was partially burned when Caesar set fire to the fleet in the harbor, which spread to the library and destroyed some part, to Caesar's embarrassment. Later, Christian zealots under Theophilus destroyed 10% of the collection. Finally, Muslim zealots under Caliph Omar destroyed the rest. Nobody looks to Theophilus's or Omar's governments as models of good government today.
- mchaver 4y ago
  > to the people who want to argue this: show me a body of work which has been more influential on western society. A potential competitor would be Ancient Greek Philosophy (Socrates, Plato, Aristotle). Though it is hard to measure. > What people seem to identify as 'western' values are largely just judeo christian values. Nope, 'Judeo-Christian values' is a horrible Christian-Americanism that seems to erase the vast differences in Jewish and Christian experiences. Judaism is a tribal religion with a huge focus on commandments given to said tribe and understanding the texts. Christianity is a religion concerned with the beliefs of all people, including non-Christians. The structure of their societies are quite different and historically Christian countries did not treat Jews well. So I would add 'Judeo-Christian values' to the list of absurd and completely ahistoric ideas.
  - joenot443 4y ago
    'Judeo-Christian values' is actually phrase coined by George Orwell, but it's clear that you're much better studied on the topic. Any Christian or Jew will obviously acknowledge the many differences between the faiths, but I'm confused that you seem to be saying there aren't HUGE similarities in their value systems. Do you have many Jewish or Christian friends? I feel as if your understanding of Jewish/Christian culture is much more based on internet comments than lived experience. If you want to understand, I encourage you to spend some time with devout Jews or devout Catholics and you'll begin to see the similarities.
    - mchaver 4y ago
      > 'Judeo-Christian values' is actually phrase coined by George Orwell I didn't know that, but this phrase seems to be common in the US. I have not encountered it much elsewhere. > I'm confused that you seem to be saying there aren't HUGE similarities in their value systems I don't deny there are many similarities, but my lived experience is that the core values and tenets of the two religions are quite different. Maybe you have a different experience. Judaism also has many similarities with Samaritanism and Islam. So why don't we speak speak of Abrahamic values? My point is I am suspicious of the term 'Judeo-Christian values'.
- tensor 4y ago
  Not for current day issues no I don't. I've certainly read parts of it and have watched numerous documentaries, museums, etc on it. From a historical point of view it's of course valuable. But it's not valuable to me for current day issues any more than flat earth theories are or outdated science textbooks.
thundergolfer 4y ago
You missed that he ends with a quote from Bronze Age Mindset. Wild. Check out the background on this book if you're not familiar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_Pervert https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_Pervert.
joenot443 4y ago
It must take a certain level of arrogance to believe that the most famous and widely referenced text in all of human history is a waste of time to a mind like yours. I'm agnostic as well, but I think it's an ignorant position to take to pretend that the Bible hasn't had an enormous influence in the continued story of humanity.
pneumic 4y ago
Regardless of what you believe, it's an important piece of literature that is interwoven with our history. People who let it cause thought-termination are missing out.

I stopped reading when he brought the Bible into things. I have no time to waste on that sort of thing.

by tensor 4y ago

I stopped reading when he brought the Bible into things. I have no time to waste on that sort of thing.

You have no time to waste on western civilization's foundational text? edit: to the people who want to argue this: show me a body of work which has been more influential on western society. What people seem to identify as 'western' values are largely just judeo christian values. The influence of the bible is so ingrained into our society that you will live out the values within it even if you don't realize it. And that kindof makes sense, doesn't it? Some guys wrote down some stories which at the time were being passed orally, these stories became really popular, and the society which was telling these stories and using them to pass their moral philosophy became prosperous. The Catholic Church was a (not so)pseudo government in Europe for almost 2000 years, and was the leader and authority in philosophy and art. The idea that somehow none of this is foundational to western civilization is absurd and completely ahistoric.

dekhn 4y ago
You mean the Odyssey?
Matl 4y ago
Not everyone eats everything Jordan Peterson says. The values you say are 'Christian values' are expressed, (in many cases more eloquently), in classical Greek texts. Values like democracy itself are indeed much more prominent there than in the Bible, which is why I imagine you're seeing the sort of replies that you are.
- thepasswordis 4y ago
  This is so frustrating to me. People hear "the bible is foundational" and I think they're hearing "the magical stories in the bible are literally true. God sat on a cloud and poofed western civilization into existence!" What I'm saying is that, the Dawkins sense, The Bible was an extremely successful meme. I don't think that's even up for debate. >Not everyone eats everything Jordan Peterson says. People need to find more internet people to hate. Christopher Hitchens was saying the same thing to impressionable teenagers in the early 2000s, and so was Richard Dawkins. Before that there was this little known German Philosopher saying something similar too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#Death_of_God_and_nihilism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#Death_of_G...
  - Kbelicius 4y ago
    Just because a book and an institution were present for the last 2000 years doesn't mean that they were the foundation of a society that exists today. Especially a society that most likely exists despite of them then because of them.
    - dekhn 4y ago
      I think the 30 Years War, which tore apart Europe for decades over a disagreement over details in the interpretation of Christianity (and the Protestant and Catholic bibles differ). I would say at the very least the bible is one of the most important pieces of literature in the world, has had a tremendous impact in all its forms, played a role in the formation of the modern world's moral codes, and at the same time, is not the unique, one, and only "foundational" document leading to the modern western world- there isn't one. (FWIW, I really do respect the King James bible as a world of literature, even though I am agnostic and consider the Silmarillion to be a more enjoyable origin story)
  - joenot443 4y ago
    Namedropping Peterson when he has 0 relevance to the conversation at hand is just juvenile flamebait and a pretty easy tell that the GP isn't really acting in good faith. I don't think @matl is interested in a serious conversation about the historical relevancy of the Bible, nor are they equipped to have one.
    - Matl 4y ago
      > Namedropping Peterson when he has 0 relevance to the conversation at hand He absolutely has relevance considering he's the most recent prominent public figure pushing the Bible as "the foundational stories" without which we cannot live. Yes, there are others and it may be that OP arrived at this independently, but I've heard this most from his followers. I acknowledge that I may've been slightly nudged by OP's unfounded "You have no time to waste on western civilization's foundational text?", which sounded extremely judgmental to me, but shouldn't have jumped on the bait.
lern_too_spel 4y ago
Euclid's Elements is the foundational text of western civilization, popularizing reasoning from first principles. The Bible is a foundational text of western mythology, not much different from the mythological texts of any other part of the world. You will find no mention of The Bible or any of its characters in The Federalist Papers. You will find much discussion of classical governments and several references to Montesquieu. John Locke specifically cited Euclid as his influence and structured his writing to match. Lincoln, perhaps the most stridently moral of America's presidents, was known as the village atheist when he was a young man, studied Gibbon's The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, which put much of the blame on Christianity, and Paine's The Age of Reason. He carried Euclid's Elements with him until he could derive any of the propositions in the first six books at will. It is only by the power of the ideas that Euclid's Elements (written in Alexandria) survives today. The Library of Alexandria was partially burned when Caesar set fire to the fleet in the harbor, which spread to the library and destroyed some part, to Caesar's embarrassment. Later, Christian zealots under Theophilus destroyed 10% of the collection. Finally, Muslim zealots under Caliph Omar destroyed the rest. Nobody looks to Theophilus's or Omar's governments as models of good government today.
mchaver 4y ago
> to the people who want to argue this: show me a body of work which has been more influential on western society. A potential competitor would be Ancient Greek Philosophy (Socrates, Plato, Aristotle). Though it is hard to measure. > What people seem to identify as 'western' values are largely just judeo christian values. Nope, 'Judeo-Christian values' is a horrible Christian-Americanism that seems to erase the vast differences in Jewish and Christian experiences. Judaism is a tribal religion with a huge focus on commandments given to said tribe and understanding the texts. Christianity is a religion concerned with the beliefs of all people, including non-Christians. The structure of their societies are quite different and historically Christian countries did not treat Jews well. So I would add 'Judeo-Christian values' to the list of absurd and completely ahistoric ideas.
- joenot443 4y ago
  'Judeo-Christian values' is actually phrase coined by George Orwell, but it's clear that you're much better studied on the topic. Any Christian or Jew will obviously acknowledge the many differences between the faiths, but I'm confused that you seem to be saying there aren't HUGE similarities in their value systems. Do you have many Jewish or Christian friends? I feel as if your understanding of Jewish/Christian culture is much more based on internet comments than lived experience. If you want to understand, I encourage you to spend some time with devout Jews or devout Catholics and you'll begin to see the similarities.
  - mchaver 4y ago
    > 'Judeo-Christian values' is actually phrase coined by George Orwell I didn't know that, but this phrase seems to be common in the US. I have not encountered it much elsewhere. > I'm confused that you seem to be saying there aren't HUGE similarities in their value systems I don't deny there are many similarities, but my lived experience is that the core values and tenets of the two religions are quite different. Maybe you have a different experience. Judaism also has many similarities with Samaritanism and Islam. So why don't we speak speak of Abrahamic values? My point is I am suspicious of the term 'Judeo-Christian values'.
tensor 4y ago
Not for current day issues no I don't. I've certainly read parts of it and have watched numerous documentaries, museums, etc on it. From a historical point of view it's of course valuable. But it's not valuable to me for current day issues any more than flat earth theories are or outdated science textbooks.

thundergolfer 4y ago

You missed that he ends with a quote from Bronze Age Mindset. Wild. Check out the background on this book if you're not familiar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_Pervert https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_Pervert.

joenot443 4y ago

It must take a certain level of arrogance to believe that the most famous and widely referenced text in all of human history is a waste of time to a mind like yours. I'm agnostic as well, but I think it's an ignorant position to take to pretend that the Bible hasn't had an enormous influence in the continued story of humanity.

pneumic 4y ago

Regardless of what you believe, it's an important piece of literature that is interwoven with our history. People who let it cause thought-termination are missing out.