26 ms·

I'm pretty sure I know why... The working environment changed. Bit by bit I moved from an environment with gentleman's agreements and so on towards something i

by throwaway22032 4y ago

I'm pretty sure I know why... The working environment changed. Bit by bit I moved from an environment with gentleman's agreements and so on towards something in which everything was codified, safetyism became rampant, etc. In the UK over the past few years I went from going into a nice office in a number of beautiful old buildings, getting my stuff done with cameraderie, having lunch together and playing board games, having a laugh in the board room, perhaps a pub visit after work - to sitting alone at home for 8 hours staring at a screen. So I quit. My productivity - gone. And I fear it's never coming back unless that environment comes back; because I can't effectively function at a "job" with zero human interaction for an entire day, I've had to replace traditional work with other activities. But is it just me? My friends in retail and other low skill jobs - half the workforce seems to have disappeared so they're all being asked to do far more than is realistically possible. My friends who are in education - the entire job changed, no more giggling and laughing children, you were playing a video game with half the class absent. Perhaps they're back now - but they're dysfunctional because their development was neglected for years. My friends who are in law - the entire job changed, no more travel, no dressing up, sit at home with a screen. My friends who are in medicine - christ, let's not even go there, eh? I can't speak for those people. But I know that I need a reset, because this "new world" is one I'm just not built for.

coldpie 4y ago
> But is it just me? No. I go into the office every day because I feel the same. I need to get out of the house and see people. (It is OK if you, reader, do not feel this way! People are different!) There's a handful of other folks who come in every day. I'm starting up a project this week to revive our office culture a bit, to try to spring back from the COVID devastation.
- throwaway22032 4y ago
  Hello fellow space traveler. I appreciate your message. Good luck.
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  I think a lot of us work-from-home preferrers also like (good) offices better than WFH, just not to the tune of hundreds of dollars and tens of hours lost per month.
  - coldpie 4y ago
    Bus pass here costs $90/mo and I get to spend ~80 minutes per day reading books. My office is across the street from the library, it's pretty great :) It's no accident my house is next to a bus line, that was a major factor when we were buying.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- roflyear 4y ago
  I wouldn't want to force you to stay home, just don't force people to go into the office :)
  - coldpie 4y ago
    Where did I say anything like that?
jimlongton 4y ago
> towards something in which everything was codified, safetyism became rampant Those "gentleman's agreements" were not that great if you happened to be a woman, gay or any other minority. The upsides to HR, employment regulation and so on has been making the office a far better place to work for a lot of people. While I agree that there are rampant problems in a lot of sectors, from low skilled to medical, there have been some wins. My team went fully remote for 2 years and now most people still work 3 days a week from home. We were able to build up a large and talented team during the lockdowns with most of my co-workers and those I manage 3 timezones away. We adopted more flexible working hours and we've never been happier. My manager can take time in the morning to get his kids to creche and I can take a longer lunch to check in on elderly relatives. I no longer spend 2 hours a day stuck in traffic. Our productivity has skyrocketed. We may be privileged tech workers, but the change in work styles has definitely boosted our company as a whole.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- jbm 4y ago
  - thot_experiment 4y ago
    I feel like this is a very real concern? In general I'm in favor of playing fast and loose with rules, and don't put a lot of stock into codifying anything because I feel like it's overall a huge negative when you're trying to get things done. That all being said this particular arena is one that's so fraught with tiny little edges that all stack up to benefit certain classes of people unequally it unfortunately feels necessary to be explicit and precise. Ultimately this power is a zero sum game, and for and a more equal world means we must take power from some people and give it to others. That's almost never a thing that happens voluntarily, even if the will is there. It's very easy to argue for a status quo that benefits you, especially if the advantages you gain are easy to lie to yourself about. “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” ― Upton Sinclair
xab33 4y ago
I totally agree. Where I work, in-person work became optional. Strangely, everyone 35 or younger decided to work from home (most of them don't have kids, which would be the one decent excuse), but the older people mostly come in. At 34, I'm sort of in-between, but enjoyed bantering with people my age or younger. So I get the worst of both worlds: my boss can still come in my office at any random time and bug me about whatever, but not the social life or the ability to bounce ideas off each other when designing a new system. All-online communication simply does not work for creative or complex tasks. The youngsters get practically nothing done -- I worked with them for several years before the pandemic, so I know for a fact that their productivity specifically went down 90% -- and guess who gets to pick up the slack? It turns out that even relatively motivated PhD students actually need in-person accountability and direction, or they just spin their wheels at best, or goof off at worst. No matter what excuses they make, it's not good for them in the long run, since it will be reflected in their CV. I'm not against fun, even during work hours, but you have to get the job done. It's a medical research institution with a small clinic, so there are, as you suggest, additional issues there. I think science, in particular, requires in-depth, in-person conversations and that is where most of the really good ideas come from.
- sinecure 4y ago
  This has been my experience as well at 32. The commercial real estate firm I work at has a 4 days in the office policy, so we have a fairly robust social atmosphere. You can't design a building on a webinar, you need to sit together in a conference room, roll the blueprints out on the table and point to things, sketch changes, review pro formas.. it can't be replaced digitally. The young people we're getting are like they're from another planet. They think it's' fine to come in late and leave early every day, they only do the bare minimum of work assigned and show zero engagement to help the firm beyond the scope of their assigned tasks. They're all coming from colleges that were remote or jobs that were work from home. How can you learn as a young professional in a work from home setting? You need to sit in on meetings, phone calls and discussions, you need to absorb the whole office around you, not just sitting alone at your computer.
  - 0xRusty 4y ago
spookthesunset 4y ago
Exact same boat dude. I miss the before-fore times a lot and still cannot believe how we got to this position. Still trying to figure out whats next for me. This WFH shit is gonna stick around in our industry for a while... and it just isn't compatible with how I function. I have no clue what to do next.
- throwaway22032 4y ago
  I'm sorry to hear that. It really is difficult. Just wanted you to know that you're not alone.
duderific 4y ago
I don't consider myself particularly outgoing, but I'm glad to be back in the office 4 days a week. I really enjoy collaborating in person over a laptop or whiteboard, and shooting the breeze with my colleagues. That said, I don't have an overly long commute, so I totally get it for those that are able to be more productive due to not spending hours in the car every day. I notice that when I'm working from home, I'm much more likely to goof off and be less focused. Plus my wife being there is always distracting me with one thing or another. I'm pretty sure I'm quite a bit less productive working from home.
- robocat 4y ago
  > Plus my wife being there is always distracting me with one thing or another. More generically: young kids require attention, then we grow up and most adults desire attention but only get a little. Even very high status individuals often seek attention (Elon & sinks?). I wonder how much of our status economy is about getting attention? Giving great attention can be quite the aphrodisiac.
swalsh 4y ago
I've been working from home since about 2017. I kind of echo this. In the beginning it was nice, I had a HUGE productivity boost. After a while I became disconnected from everything. The other day I realized the only adult I talk to reguarly in person is my wife. Somtimes on weekends I talk to a store clerk. Zoom meetings don't fill that missing spot, it's just work, and I have very little personal connection with any of my coworkers... Days and weeks and months seem to merge. I'm an introverted person, I like solitude. But I guess all things in balance, it would be nice to talk to another adult once in a while about something that's not work. I got really into Crypto, because Crypto seems to have a heavy focus on community. It was fun to fly to NY and talk to others in the community. But then I flew home, and the spot was missing again.
mch82 4y ago
I love that this comment defines productivity as lunches, jokes, playing board games, and going to the pub. Though, I agree all those things are more fun than sitting at a computer.
type-r 4y ago
You have a very diverse group of friends!
roflyear 4y ago
Productivity went up during COVID. It is going down when we're making people return to the office

coldpie 4y ago

> But is it just me? No. I go into the office every day because I feel the same. I need to get out of the house and see people. (It is OK if you, reader, do not feel this way! People are different!) There's a handful of other folks who come in every day. I'm starting up a project this week to revive our office culture a bit, to try to spring back from the COVID devastation.

throwaway22032 4y ago
Hello fellow space traveler. I appreciate your message. Good luck.
yamtaddle 4y ago
I think a lot of us work-from-home preferrers also like (good) offices better than WFH, just not to the tune of hundreds of dollars and tens of hours lost per month.
- coldpie 4y ago
  Bus pass here costs $90/mo and I get to spend ~80 minutes per day reading books. My office is across the street from the library, it's pretty great :) It's no accident my house is next to a bus line, that was a major factor when we were buying.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
roflyear 4y ago
I wouldn't want to force you to stay home, just don't force people to go into the office :)
- coldpie 4y ago
  Where did I say anything like that?

jimlongton 4y ago

> towards something in which everything was codified, safetyism became rampant Those "gentleman's agreements" were not that great if you happened to be a woman, gay or any other minority. The upsides to HR, employment regulation and so on has been making the office a far better place to work for a lot of people. While I agree that there are rampant problems in a lot of sectors, from low skilled to medical, there have been some wins. My team went fully remote for 2 years and now most people still work 3 days a week from home. We were able to build up a large and talented team during the lockdowns with most of my co-workers and those I manage 3 timezones away. We adopted more flexible working hours and we've never been happier. My manager can take time in the morning to get his kids to creche and I can take a longer lunch to check in on elderly relatives. I no longer spend 2 hours a day stuck in traffic. Our productivity has skyrocketed. We may be privileged tech workers, but the change in work styles has definitely boosted our company as a whole.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
jbm 4y ago
- thot_experiment 4y ago
  I feel like this is a very real concern? In general I'm in favor of playing fast and loose with rules, and don't put a lot of stock into codifying anything because I feel like it's overall a huge negative when you're trying to get things done. That all being said this particular arena is one that's so fraught with tiny little edges that all stack up to benefit certain classes of people unequally it unfortunately feels necessary to be explicit and precise. Ultimately this power is a zero sum game, and for and a more equal world means we must take power from some people and give it to others. That's almost never a thing that happens voluntarily, even if the will is there. It's very easy to argue for a status quo that benefits you, especially if the advantages you gain are easy to lie to yourself about. “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” ― Upton Sinclair

xab33 4y ago

I totally agree. Where I work, in-person work became optional. Strangely, everyone 35 or younger decided to work from home (most of them don't have kids, which would be the one decent excuse), but the older people mostly come in. At 34, I'm sort of in-between, but enjoyed bantering with people my age or younger. So I get the worst of both worlds: my boss can still come in my office at any random time and bug me about whatever, but not the social life or the ability to bounce ideas off each other when designing a new system. All-online communication simply does not work for creative or complex tasks. The youngsters get practically nothing done -- I worked with them for several years before the pandemic, so I know for a fact that their productivity specifically went down 90% -- and guess who gets to pick up the slack? It turns out that even relatively motivated PhD students actually need in-person accountability and direction, or they just spin their wheels at best, or goof off at worst. No matter what excuses they make, it's not good for them in the long run, since it will be reflected in their CV. I'm not against fun, even during work hours, but you have to get the job done. It's a medical research institution with a small clinic, so there are, as you suggest, additional issues there. I think science, in particular, requires in-depth, in-person conversations and that is where most of the really good ideas come from.

sinecure 4y ago
This has been my experience as well at 32. The commercial real estate firm I work at has a 4 days in the office policy, so we have a fairly robust social atmosphere. You can't design a building on a webinar, you need to sit together in a conference room, roll the blueprints out on the table and point to things, sketch changes, review pro formas.. it can't be replaced digitally. The young people we're getting are like they're from another planet. They think it's' fine to come in late and leave early every day, they only do the bare minimum of work assigned and show zero engagement to help the firm beyond the scope of their assigned tasks. They're all coming from colleges that were remote or jobs that were work from home. How can you learn as a young professional in a work from home setting? You need to sit in on meetings, phone calls and discussions, you need to absorb the whole office around you, not just sitting alone at your computer.
- 0xRusty 4y ago

spookthesunset 4y ago

Exact same boat dude. I miss the before-fore times a lot and still cannot believe how we got to this position. Still trying to figure out whats next for me. This WFH shit is gonna stick around in our industry for a while... and it just isn't compatible with how I function. I have no clue what to do next.

throwaway22032 4y ago
I'm sorry to hear that. It really is difficult. Just wanted you to know that you're not alone.

duderific 4y ago

I don't consider myself particularly outgoing, but I'm glad to be back in the office 4 days a week. I really enjoy collaborating in person over a laptop or whiteboard, and shooting the breeze with my colleagues. That said, I don't have an overly long commute, so I totally get it for those that are able to be more productive due to not spending hours in the car every day. I notice that when I'm working from home, I'm much more likely to goof off and be less focused. Plus my wife being there is always distracting me with one thing or another. I'm pretty sure I'm quite a bit less productive working from home.

robocat 4y ago
> Plus my wife being there is always distracting me with one thing or another. More generically: young kids require attention, then we grow up and most adults desire attention but only get a little. Even very high status individuals often seek attention (Elon & sinks?). I wonder how much of our status economy is about getting attention? Giving great attention can be quite the aphrodisiac.

swalsh 4y ago

I've been working from home since about 2017. I kind of echo this. In the beginning it was nice, I had a HUGE productivity boost. After a while I became disconnected from everything. The other day I realized the only adult I talk to reguarly in person is my wife. Somtimes on weekends I talk to a store clerk. Zoom meetings don't fill that missing spot, it's just work, and I have very little personal connection with any of my coworkers... Days and weeks and months seem to merge. I'm an introverted person, I like solitude. But I guess all things in balance, it would be nice to talk to another adult once in a while about something that's not work. I got really into Crypto, because Crypto seems to have a heavy focus on community. It was fun to fly to NY and talk to others in the community. But then I flew home, and the spot was missing again.

mch82 4y ago

I love that this comment defines productivity as lunches, jokes, playing board games, and going to the pub. Though, I agree all those things are more fun than sitting at a computer.

type-r 4y ago

You have a very diverse group of friends!

roflyear 4y ago

Productivity went up during COVID. It is going down when we're making people return to the office