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Volkswagen develops hydrogen car that can travel 2k kilometers on one tank

• ksec 4y ago
  I was testing something and forgot NextDNS was off. There are so many Ads in a single article I am thinking if I should flag this.
• insane_dreamer 4y ago
  Hydrogen is very appealing, but the lack of a distribution system makes it highly unlikely. It's hard to see Toyota and Honda continuing to make hydrogen cars much longer. Maybe for trucks?
  • chroma 4y ago
    I think it'll fizzle out. Hydrogen has too many disadvantages. Storage is difficult. Hydrogen will diffuse through most materials. Hydrogen can't be sensed by people, so you need special sensors throughout the vehicle and any filling stations. It burns with an almost invisible flame, and it burns in a very wide range of air/fuel mixtures. It's far more flammable than gasoline. You have to build out completely new infrastructure (unlike EVs that only require improving the capacity of our existing electrical grid). Oh, and hydrogen is expensive, and that's if you make it from natural gas (which creates CO2). If you want to use electrolysis of water, the price goes way up. At that point you're using hydrogen as an extremely inefficient battery that can't be charged with the existing power grid.
  • rndgermandude 4y ago
    Distribution can be figured out, same as it was for fossil fuels and as it was/will be for electric energy. It would be a chicken and egg problem, for sure, however hydrogen has some big pros over electric, in that you can fuel up quite rapidly and get longer ranges, and doesn't have the harmful emissions of fossil fuel (how to produce the hydrogen in the first place is another issue, but the same is true for EV "fuel"). So I can see there could be a market for it as well as political will, if they can figure out the production side at a competitive price point. However, that's a big if. I can see it entering special markets first, like long haul trucking, and become more widespread from that. Time will tell if that actually will happen.
    • insane_dreamer 4y ago
      It would seem to especially make sense for long-haul trucking where range is important (without having to lug around a huge set of batteries) and they can't afford long refuel times (other than overnight).
  • jillesvangurp 4y ago
    Only if you ignore the cost and poor end to end efficiency. The reason there is no distribution system is that the vast majority of hydrogen is consumed where it is produced. It's just very hard and expensive to move hydrogen around. Most hydrogen is used to produce ammonia for the purpose of creating fertilizers. If you consider the whole chain of energy conversions, hydrogen has a very poor efficiency: - electrolysis to split water; or super heated steam to split methane. 30%-40%: at best. - compressing it for transport at typically 300bar: not sure; but it isn't free (theromdynamics). And also, some of the hydrogen is likely to slip away. Let's be generous and call it 80% - transporting it by truck or via pipes takes more energy. Also hydrogen trucks have a pretty pathetic energy density compared to e.g. a truck load of diesel. You need a lot of trucks. Which need fuel (and let's assume that is hydrogen) At about 18:1 ratio. And some more of it slips away. So, let's be generous again and call that 95% efficient. - fueling the car/truck uses compressors, pumps and cooling (expanding gases produce heat). This too is not free. - finally you have the choice of using it in a fuel cell at 70-80% efficiency or burning it in a combustion engine; which is more like 40% efficiency. If you multiply all of that you end up with the reason why using hydrogen for transport is an absolute last resort because of all the energy losses that you still have to pay for. 25% efficient would be pretty good. It's probably much worse than that. Some of it might be fixable but the laws of thermodynamics just aren't very flexible. There is no magical solution to many of these inefficiencies. So 4x the fuel cost, or drive an electrical truck. Easy choice for a lot of companies. Especially if they can generate their own cheap power.
    • _hypx 4y ago
      Electrolysis can be 95% efficient: https://newatlas.com/energy/hysata-efficient-hydrogen-electrolysis/ https://newatlas.com/energy/hysata-efficient-hydrogen-electr...
• jeffrallen 4y ago
  For a nice background on the physics of hydrogen as a transport fuel, see a recent episode of the Fully Charged podcast. Tldr: it's very much not a good fuel, in several dimensions.
  • 867-5309 4y ago
    ah that's what all the whitespace was
  • Tronno 4y ago
    OP probably means this episode: https://pca.st/episode/7bd3ca34-cbde-4ebf-94aa-23083172efde https://pca.st/episode/7bd3ca34-cbde-4ebf-94aa-23083172efde
• valine 4y ago
  The problem with hydrogen is the lack of infrastructure. EVs have suffered from the same problem too but are arguably over the hump. Starting from zero again with range anxiety and no fueling stations sounds exhausting.
  • kolinko 4y ago
    On top of that it’s way more difficult to install a hydrogen charging station than an ev-charging station. On the other hand, in Poland at least, natural gas charging stations managed to get enough traction - every gas station ofers LPG here.
    • bpye 4y ago
      To add, LPG stations are pretty much everywhere in both Canada and the UK as well.
      • jandrese 4y ago
        I found it interesting how Canada uses LPG even though the winters get cold enough that LPG isn't usable. I lived in Alberta for a year and they had a warning that when it got below -40 the buses would not run. School was not cancelled when this happened, you had to find an alternate way to get there. They did helpfully remind you that exposed skin would freeze in about 5 minutes.
        • bombcar 4y ago
          Diesel vehicles begin to fail at about -10ºC so -40º is an improvement there. There are extreme temperature vehicles that can handle below -40º with tank heaters and other things, but my gasoline cars started just fine at -40º and they weren't even garaged.
        • kolinko 4y ago
          I had an LPG car in Poland, and winters were non-issue. Just had ti start it on regular fuel and switch to lpg after a minute or two - once the engine warmed up.
• vardump 4y ago
  A thinly veiled advertisement for Kraftwerk Tubes, whose founder Sascha Kühn has at least once before completely failed to deliver. https://www.businessinsider.de/gruenderszene/allgemein/kraftwerk-ezelleron-crowd/ https://www.businessinsider.de/gruenderszene/allgemein/kraft... Google Translate link: https://www-businessinsider-de.translate.goog/gruenderszene/allgemein/kraftwerk-ezelleron-crowd/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://www-businessinsider-de.translate.goog/gruenderszene/...
  • scythe 4y ago
    >It turns out that they have even quietly filed a patent for a hydrogen car that can drive 2,000 kilometers on a single tank. It does not appear that this is an empirical demonstration, just a claim, so I'd say that your concerns are pretty reasonable.
  • deleted 4y ago
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  • almog 4y ago
    Probably not anywhere near the same scale of "failing to deliver" but thought it might be a good place to recommend WSJ's Bad Bets podcast; Its current season tells the story of how whistleblowers and short sellers took down Nikola's founder, Trevor Milton: https://www.wsj.com/podcasts/bad-bets/the-unraveling-of-trevor-milton-ep-1-hey-buddy/9a05409a-6bb5-4b24-bc46-795180d4a71d https://www.wsj.com/podcasts/bad-bets/the-unraveling-of-trev...
  • alexvoda 4y ago
    > A thinly veiled advertisement for Kraftwerk Tubes Did they test it on the Autobahn? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-G28iyPtz0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-G28iyPtz0
• Rhedox 4y ago
  Hydrogen cars are incredibly inefficient.
• silentsea90 4y ago
  I've read Company X develops Hydrogen car for decades now. Not an expert on feasibility, but I doubt any of these cos. have the guts to start a new category like this, and will wait for somebody else to prove value first. This is how Tesla prospered in the first place.
  • rad_gruchalski 4y ago
    BMW apparently prepares to release a hydrogen x1 series.
• TruthWillHurt 4y ago
  What the hell is this weird "news" site? Next article is about MotoGP bikes switching from 2-strokes to 4. That was 20 years ago! And a poor translation at that.. https://www.ruetir.com/2022/10/30/motomondiale-2002-yamaha-yzr500-the-ultimate-chore/ https://www.ruetir.com/2022/10/30/motomondiale-2002-yamaha-y...
  • hdjsksjd 4y ago
  • hicks2evan 4y ago
    Seriously. I should probably enable an adblock or reader mode, but couldn't even be bothered to read the article it was so trashed with ads.
• geijoenr 4y ago
  Some time ago I saw a presentation from the chaos computer club where an expert on the matter explained there is a lot of misunderstandings about hydrogen technology as an energy source and how is gonna useful for society and why it is necessary. In a nutshell some industries that currently rely on natural gas cannot switch effectively to electricity, hydrogen seems to be the only solution at the moment. Regarding transportation, it seems to be widely accepted that hydrogen is not an efficient solution for small vehicles. There may be some cases where it makes sense (heavy trucks, train locomotives), but overall it doesn't seem like anybody expects hydrogen cars to be mass produced.
  • vletal 4y ago
    What is there problem with small vehicles?
    • bryanlarsen 4y ago
      EV's are about 3X as efficient turning electricity into motion as hydrogen cars are. Here's a good graphic from Volkswagen laying it out very clearly. https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1127660_battery-electric-or-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vw-lays-out-why-one-is-the-winner https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1127660_battery-electri...
  • jonwest 4y ago
    What about using hydrogen as a generator for an EV like in the Hyundai 74 concept? I’m far from an expert but something like that, at least intuitively, feels like a nice compromise with having portability of fuel, but still allowing for alternative power sources via electricity (like if grid power was sourced via solar, hydro, wind, etc).
    • thefounder 4y ago
      Looks like the worst of both worlds at the first glance. However depends by the costs of batteries. In a world with an abundance/excess of green energy but expensive batteries to store it hydrogen makes sense. The conversion of electricity->hydrogen->electricity is quite inneficient so batteries better be cheap enough otherwise we will go the hydrogen way for cars as well.
• january_fanatic 4y ago
  How far can it travel when it's not taking an emissions test?
• tzury 4y ago
  That's 1242.7 miles. In other words, Las Vegas to D.C. with a single refuel stop! https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Las+Vegas,+NV/D.C.,+DC/@37.9222987,-105.0919489,5z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x80beb782a4f57dd1:0x3accd5e6d5b379a3!2m2!1d-115.1391009!2d36.171563!1m5!1m1!1s0x89b7c6de5af6e45b:0xc2524522d4885d2a!2m2!1d-77.0368707!2d38.9071923!3e0 https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Las+Vegas,+NV/D.C.,+DC/@37.9...
• Beldin 4y ago
  Hmms. 2k km isn't bad, but i don't consider this amazing either: my 12-year old big and heavy car can do 1300 km on a full tank. Sure, that's in ideal conditions, but so is this. And there is plenty of simple improvements that would make my car more efficient (weight & aerodynamics mainly). 2k isn't bad, but it's something that ought to be almost achievable with a modern and optimized ICE car as well nowadays.
  • pengaru 4y ago
    Hydrogen combustion doesn't produce co2, optimize a petrol-fueled ICE all you want and it's still a problem WRT emissions. I think the assumption is that hydrogen fuel would be produced via "green" electricity sources like wind/solar/nuclear.
    • gibsonf1 4y ago
      There is that subtle issue of how do you get hydrogen.... Takes energy to make it.
      • bombcar 4y ago
        You can just break apart water with very small tiny little hammers. Finding the miniature dwarfs to do this is the tricky part.
        • hijinks 4y ago
          gotta feed them though so still energy needed
      • pengaru 4y ago
        Takes energy to mine+process the contents for and charge batteries too.
        • FullyFunctional 4y ago
          Batteries have 1000+ cycle life time (LFP batteries even more) and charging is very efficient. Not at all comparable.
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• Animats 4y ago
  This is "filed a patent on", not "developed". They may just have a benchtop fuel cell model. Range here is mostly about installed tank size. A Greyhound bus can travel about 2k kilometers on one fill-up.
  • vitus 4y ago
    Exactly this. A modern sedan might get 40 miles to the gallon, but only has a tank of maybe 13 gallons (for a range of 500 miles / 800km). Meanwhile the bus gets "only" 6 mpg but has a 200-gallon tank to compensate.
    • plorg 4y ago
      Hydrogen, also, has a much lower volumetric energy density that gasoline, diesel, or even LNG, and requires a bunch more equipment to maintain the cryogenic temperatutes required to keep it in a liquid state.
      • szundi 4y ago
        Funny to imagine how it burns in the fuel cell to maintain the cryogenic environment - thus it just depletes itself sitting in the same place.
        • fomine3 4y ago
          Evaporating on running vehicle isn't problem since the vehicle needs vaporized hydrogen. Long term storing could be a problem but it's bus.
    • bombcar 4y ago
      Once tank size gets to a certain point (the "range" of the driver/passengers for example) the only reason to get bigger is to reduce refueling time or because of fuel availability limitations. This is part of the reason super long flights aren't as common as might be expected, because it's often significantly cheaper to have a layover, even if the plane could actually do the flight in one go - having to carry the second half fuel for the first half is heavy (and the extreme version of this is the rocket equation).
• gernb 4y ago
  I've gotten used to the idea that it seems like if I get a solar roof and power system that I can charge my electric car during the zombie apocalypse, where as AFAIK, I can't easily create gasoline or enough hydrogen for a hydrogen powered car. Right?
  • plextoria 4y ago
    Hydrogen can be created using electricity and water. Who will create a new battery once yours dies out?
    • bryanlarsen 4y ago
      That battery will last longer than the catalysts in your hydrogen production system.
  • maxfan8 4y ago
    Hydrogen is simple to produce if you have access to water and electricity. Gasoline is much harder to do, though.
    • gernb 4y ago
      Yes but in quantities I can use the drive my car?
    • vinaypai 4y ago
      You also have to compress it to very high pressures to be able to store a useful amount of it.
    • vardump 4y ago
      If it's simple, why practically no one is doing it? Last I heard, 99% of all H2 was produced out of methane. Perhaps it's a bit better now?
    • bufferoverflow 4y ago
      No, it's not. Electrolysis is extremely inefficient. There are some modern developments with advanced catalysts, but it's not something an average person can do.
• alexose 4y ago
  I'm midway through a deep dive on PEM fuel cells. My first takeaway is, damn, so many researchers have tried to crack this nut over the years. We've been working on this technology since the 1960s. A cheaper and more durable membrane would be a huge improvement on paper. In practice, of course, there are a million variables that make fuel cells difficult to use as a general-purpose tool. From all the issues with fuel storage, cost, mechanical durability, degradation, to problems with pollutants and fouling, and so on... As a side note: The Toyota Mirai is absolutely fascinating to me. A 1kW hydrogen fuel cell on the open market goes for around $5k, and yet somehow Toyota has managed to put a 136kW stack on the road for under 50 grand! You can even find one on the used market for around 12 grand. It's almost worth buying them up to use as mobile hydrogen power plants.
• Waterluvian 4y ago
  Is there a safe, legal, reasonable way to install a gas tank in my trunk if I wanted to sacrifice storage for distance? My car could get 2000km.
  • tomxor 4y ago
    Yes, Jerrycans. Seriously. + you can easily swap back to arbitrary storage once you are finished with your rare 2000 km journey. For all it's issues, petroleum is extremely convenient in that it can be transferred and contained in such a low tech way with (relative) safety.
    • Waterluvian 4y ago
      Sigh. This is the kind of obvious, simple, sensible answer that I feel silly not immediately considering. The only downside (shared by my initial thought) is that they aren’t collapsible. So that volume is committed even 1/4 way through my trip
      • bombcar 4y ago
        Why can't they be? You want a fuel bladder: https://www.liquidcontainment.com.au/category/2/Fuel-Bladders https://www.liquidcontainment.com.au/category/2/Fuel-Bladder...
        • Waterluvian 4y ago
          When I think “Jerry can” I think the very specific rigid 20L vessel. I guess we can call other things a Jerry can too. I’m curious if these are legally allowed in Canada. If so they seem decent!
          • bombcar 4y ago
            "Legality" is going to vary wildly - if you are carrying fuel in the trunk, you're probably pretty restricted, but you may be able to get away with various other mounting options - and I'm sure you can buy them even if you can't run them. I'd also search out "off road" people and forums, though they may not specialize in your vehicle, they probably know the various rules and regulations. https://www.zuksoffroadcanada.ca/Gas-Tank-15-Gallon_p_997.html https://www.zuksoffroadcanada.ca/Gas-Tank-15-Gallon_p_997.ht... does exist, so I'm sure there's things out there. People modifying vehicles for Nunavut or the Australian Outback would be places I'd start. So do things like : https://masterhitch.com/catalog/truck-suv-accessories/auxiliary-fuel-tanks/ https://masterhitch.com/catalog/truck-suv-accessories/auxili... but I'd be a bit wary of bolting gas tanks to the rear bumper/trailer hitch myself. And many rules will stop applying once you are "off road" whatever that means in your area.
• zelienople 4y ago
  This is Volkswagen, so they actually got 20km and the rest was measured rolling downhill with the engine off.
• dpq 4y ago
  Somewhat off-topic: why "2k kilometers" instead of 2 megameters? I do realize that in daily life people rarely use distances of that order of magnitude, but the semantic connections between kilobits<>megabits, kilowatts<>megawatts appears to be entirely accessible to essentially all adults, so why use the awkward "thousands of kilometers" instead?
  • mertd 4y ago
    We would only need 4% of the range of mega to express any earthly distance. I guess that's why we don't bother.
  • AdrianB1 4y ago
    Just because people are so used to kilometers and for many people the conversion is too difficult. You overestimate the intelligence and education of average adults and I am dead serious about this, I did studied this a bit.
  • bastawhiz 4y ago
    I'm admittedly American, but I've literally never heard "megameters" used outside of a classroom. I know what 1000km is like without thinking, but I have no immediate intuition for a megameter is unless I think about it.
  • aradox66 4y ago
    Be the change.
• zxcvbn4038 4y ago
  This is nothing new, I remember an episode of “That’s Incredible!” from the early 80s that featured a bunch of college students that created a car that got 100 miles per gallon. The problem has always been that advancements in clean power get bought up by the oil companies and buried. That sucks for consumers in the hear and now, but it is a really smart move by big oil - if the petrol gravytrain ever runs dry big oil can fall back on their extensive patent portfolios and continue to be front and center in the energy game no matter where it is played. I wouldn’t be surprised if all those wind farms that have popped up in the mid-west were actually owned by some subsidiary of an oil company.
  • eyelidlessness 4y ago
    I won’t speak to the extent that oil/fossil fuel business has suppressed clean energy (not that I’m disputing it, I think it’s more complicated though and don’t care to comment on that in this context). But I will say I’ve seen huge wind farms built atop huge, now-idle oil operations eg across large parts of central Texas. Never looked into whether they’re owned by the same oil companies but it sure wouldn’t surprise me.
    • zxcvbn4038 4y ago
      There used to be nothing but farmland and horizon driving through Amarillo - at night it was like driving through a void except for the occasional (usually closed) gas station that left a light on. Today it’s a surreal alien landscape day and night with all the wind turbines and their aircraft warning lights.
• Abrownn 4y ago
  This is a site that steals content and rehosts it and is posing as Reuters.com. Note that there is no proper listed author, the "About" is generic and vague (if you search "Here we will provide you only interesting content, which you will like very much" from their about with quotes on google, you'll see it's used by dozens of blogspam sites, likely a wordpress template placeholder). Please flag it and support original sources and avoid blogspam.
  • fomine3 4y ago
    Recently I sometimes encounter random blogpost (but not seems to copied from news sites in English) like this, primary translated from Chinese. I admit that it's sometimes useful.