5 ms·

You're focusing on justice for the person who committed the crime. What about justice for the person or people who were victims of the crime? What about justic

You're focusing on justice for the person who committed the crime. What about justice for the person or people who were victims of the crime? What about justice for the society in which the crime took place? While the perpetrator may be a wholly different person now, what if not everyone agrees that a crime, or the consequences of that crime, can be expiated so easily?

seanmcdirmid 4y ago
Isn’t that just revenge seeking and why America’s criminal Justice system is so messed up compared to Europe? If we focused on rehabilitation rather than punishment, we would probably get better results for society, than focusing on punishment to appease the victim and their family’s needs for punishment? How do we balance rehabilitation and punishment properly? Right now, the USA seems to do it very poorly.
- somenameforme 4y ago
  In many places in Asia the penalties for crime, and conditions for inmates, make American prisons look like a resort. It's frequently little more than intentional sadism. For one commonly known example in Japan death row inmates are kept in absolute solitary confinement and never told when they're too be hanged until one day a guard walks in, and they're dangling from a rope a few moments later. Imagine hearing that gate swing open and the approaching footsteps, over and over and over. It could be your next meal, or the rope. There's also greater than 80% support for capital punishment, and implicitly this system, in Japan. Yet crime rates, especially violent crime, are practically zero. And what violent crime does exist is almost entirely inter-personal (argument turns violent, deal gone bad, etc) as opposed to random. The obvious explanation for all of this is simply that people are different. And consequently, mimicking the methods of a country with a meaningfully different population is highly unlikely to result in mimicking their results.
  - texaslonghorn5 4y ago
    what are you arguing? that the Japanese system is worse so united states should just suck it up?
    - somenameforme 4y ago
      Read the post I was responding to. The author hypothesized that "revenge seeking" is why US legal system has worse social outcomes than Europe. Yet "Asia" (and by this I include a large number of countries) is revenge seeking embodied and has significantly better social outcomes than Europe. So the hypothesis seems unlikely to be valid.
      - watwut 4y ago
        Germany has lower murder rates then Japan. Asia as a whole does not have nearly zero murder rates. It contains quite unsafe countries.
        bombcar 4y ago
        Also I've heard (no proof) that Japan is more likely to characterize deaths as "accidents" or "suicide" to keep the murder rates down. Excessive punishments result in "missed" crimes - if the punishment for speeding was immediate death, cops would be much less likely to pull over speeders I feel.
      - texaslonghorn5 4y ago
        > significantly better social outcomes I think we have different ideas about what this means. For me, it is that crime ceases to exist because criminals integrate into society because of successful rehabilitation. For you it is that crime ceases to exist because criminals are scared. I will editorialize that your system has the population effectively coerced into compliance by the state (so not coming to these conclusions about how to be a good community member on their own). I hypothesize my scheme results in a better/happier/stronger community/society but I don't have data in either direction. With that said my system is more humane/humanistic and results in a positive outcome for the "criminals" too.
- logicalmonster 4y ago
  In many discussions of uniquely bad aspects to America that Europe has until now had a different and arguably better viewpoint on, there's one key fact that's always missing from many well-intentioned peoples' point of view: Europe has had a historically homogenous population within their different regions and America has not. This difference is massive for how life within prison actually works and what effects a different system might have.
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    That isn’t true anymore. Many Western European countries have more immigrants per capita than the states. We aren’t as exceptional as we think we are, just inept.
    - logicalmonster 4y ago
      1) Agreed. I specifically used the word "historically" to indicate that it has been the case in the past, but is not necessarily the case going forward. 2) Unmentioned, but sort of obvious, is that the immigration groups that Europe is adding aren't necessarily the same ones that the United States has. There can be significant differences in how different cultural groups react to different situations so the comparison between America/Europe is still much more complex than just saying "both groups have diversity now so they should be alike in every way".
- anon84873628 4y ago
  Yes, the parent comment redefined "justice" to mean "revenge". It doesn't make any sense because "an eye for an eye ..."
adaml_623 4y ago
The "what about" game will ruin any debate. The delivery of justice vs human rights is not a simple matter and anyone trying to discuss it in this type of forum is doing themselves and the subject a disservice.
kiba 4y ago
What about preventing and reducing crime, and reducing how many people becoming perpetrators and victims? Ultimately, humans don't randomly make choices. It is up to us if we want to prioritize less suffering for everyone and fixing the problems in the first place, or prioritizing some sort of vengeance.
- whiddershins 4y ago
  Humans really do have agency. Not all criminal behavior can be chalked up to bad policy or bad environment.
  - kiba 4y ago
    Humans really do have agency. Not all criminal behavior can be chalked up to bad policy or bad environment. If cause and effect exists in human beings as they do for literally everything else, than claiming 'agency' as an excuse to do nothing is basically moral bankruptcy. Our science is not perfect, nor is our policies, and people will fall through the cracks, but we should keep striving and trying nonetheless.
    - bombcar 4y ago
      Some causal things society would likely be unwilling to give up; and so some portion of society being sacrificed to prisons is what we're willing to pay for it.
DFHippie 4y ago
> What about justice for the society in which the crime took place? This for me is one of the strongest arguments against the death penalty. If the state can kill its prisoners and the state's government falls into authoritarian hands, one political faction, the authoritarian faction, can simply kill off those who oppose it. Did the accused commit a crime, a "crime", or do nothing at all? Well, too late to find out. Of course, an authoritarian government can bring back the death penalty, but at least make it harder for them to hide what they are doing. And the longer your nation goes without the death penalty, the more egregious it is when the authoritarians reinstitute it, the more obvious it is what they're doing.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  And the worst thing is that those who have been found as state actors to be murdering innocents are not punished. They are not treated like this or simply executed. And neither is the people who voted for them after this crime or part took to them with political funding. Really makes one wonder what would be just and working society.
- somenameforme 4y ago
  Looking at history, I'm not sure this is a reasonable argument. Vast numbers of governments have gone down this path, and not only authoritarian ones. Yet there's no need for a 'bad' government to rely on the death penalty or whatever else. Disappearing people is the normal method operandi. It's faster and reduces the chances of somebody becoming a martyr. And incidentally, indefinite detention without trial or representation, of US citizens, was legalized in 2012 [1]. An initial legal case against it managed to obtain a permanent injunction against indefinitely detaining US citizens. That victory was tossed out by a higher court who ruled that the plaintiffs lacked the standing for a preemptive challenge to the law. So they need to be indefinitely detained, then when released (if ever) they might be allowed to challenge the constitutionality of the law. Great system. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_Authorization_Act_for_Fiscal_Year_2012#Controversy_over_indefinite_detention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_Authorization...
- bombcar 4y ago
  Authoritarian boogeyman governments aren't going to death penalty people out of nowhere, they'll have tools and abilities to remove inconvenient people much more quietly. After all it's much easier to "remove" someone who was "resisting arrest" than go through the bother of a trial.

seanmcdirmid 4y ago

Isn’t that just revenge seeking and why America’s criminal Justice system is so messed up compared to Europe? If we focused on rehabilitation rather than punishment, we would probably get better results for society, than focusing on punishment to appease the victim and their family’s needs for punishment? How do we balance rehabilitation and punishment properly? Right now, the USA seems to do it very poorly.

somenameforme 4y ago
In many places in Asia the penalties for crime, and conditions for inmates, make American prisons look like a resort. It's frequently little more than intentional sadism. For one commonly known example in Japan death row inmates are kept in absolute solitary confinement and never told when they're too be hanged until one day a guard walks in, and they're dangling from a rope a few moments later. Imagine hearing that gate swing open and the approaching footsteps, over and over and over. It could be your next meal, or the rope. There's also greater than 80% support for capital punishment, and implicitly this system, in Japan. Yet crime rates, especially violent crime, are practically zero. And what violent crime does exist is almost entirely inter-personal (argument turns violent, deal gone bad, etc) as opposed to random. The obvious explanation for all of this is simply that people are different. And consequently, mimicking the methods of a country with a meaningfully different population is highly unlikely to result in mimicking their results.
- texaslonghorn5 4y ago
  what are you arguing? that the Japanese system is worse so united states should just suck it up?
  - somenameforme 4y ago
    Read the post I was responding to. The author hypothesized that "revenge seeking" is why US legal system has worse social outcomes than Europe. Yet "Asia" (and by this I include a large number of countries) is revenge seeking embodied and has significantly better social outcomes than Europe. So the hypothesis seems unlikely to be valid.
    - watwut 4y ago
      Germany has lower murder rates then Japan. Asia as a whole does not have nearly zero murder rates. It contains quite unsafe countries.
      - bombcar 4y ago
        Also I've heard (no proof) that Japan is more likely to characterize deaths as "accidents" or "suicide" to keep the murder rates down. Excessive punishments result in "missed" crimes - if the punishment for speeding was immediate death, cops would be much less likely to pull over speeders I feel.
    - texaslonghorn5 4y ago
      > significantly better social outcomes I think we have different ideas about what this means. For me, it is that crime ceases to exist because criminals integrate into society because of successful rehabilitation. For you it is that crime ceases to exist because criminals are scared. I will editorialize that your system has the population effectively coerced into compliance by the state (so not coming to these conclusions about how to be a good community member on their own). I hypothesize my scheme results in a better/happier/stronger community/society but I don't have data in either direction. With that said my system is more humane/humanistic and results in a positive outcome for the "criminals" too.
logicalmonster 4y ago
In many discussions of uniquely bad aspects to America that Europe has until now had a different and arguably better viewpoint on, there's one key fact that's always missing from many well-intentioned peoples' point of view: Europe has had a historically homogenous population within their different regions and America has not. This difference is massive for how life within prison actually works and what effects a different system might have.
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  That isn’t true anymore. Many Western European countries have more immigrants per capita than the states. We aren’t as exceptional as we think we are, just inept.
  - logicalmonster 4y ago
    1) Agreed. I specifically used the word "historically" to indicate that it has been the case in the past, but is not necessarily the case going forward. 2) Unmentioned, but sort of obvious, is that the immigration groups that Europe is adding aren't necessarily the same ones that the United States has. There can be significant differences in how different cultural groups react to different situations so the comparison between America/Europe is still much more complex than just saying "both groups have diversity now so they should be alike in every way".
anon84873628 4y ago
Yes, the parent comment redefined "justice" to mean "revenge". It doesn't make any sense because "an eye for an eye ..."

adaml_623 4y ago

The "what about" game will ruin any debate. The delivery of justice vs human rights is not a simple matter and anyone trying to discuss it in this type of forum is doing themselves and the subject a disservice.

kiba 4y ago

What about preventing and reducing crime, and reducing how many people becoming perpetrators and victims? Ultimately, humans don't randomly make choices. It is up to us if we want to prioritize less suffering for everyone and fixing the problems in the first place, or prioritizing some sort of vengeance.

whiddershins 4y ago
Humans really do have agency. Not all criminal behavior can be chalked up to bad policy or bad environment.
- kiba 4y ago
  Humans really do have agency. Not all criminal behavior can be chalked up to bad policy or bad environment. If cause and effect exists in human beings as they do for literally everything else, than claiming 'agency' as an excuse to do nothing is basically moral bankruptcy. Our science is not perfect, nor is our policies, and people will fall through the cracks, but we should keep striving and trying nonetheless.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Some causal things society would likely be unwilling to give up; and so some portion of society being sacrificed to prisons is what we're willing to pay for it.

DFHippie 4y ago

> What about justice for the society in which the crime took place? This for me is one of the strongest arguments against the death penalty. If the state can kill its prisoners and the state's government falls into authoritarian hands, one political faction, the authoritarian faction, can simply kill off those who oppose it. Did the accused commit a crime, a "crime", or do nothing at all? Well, too late to find out. Of course, an authoritarian government can bring back the death penalty, but at least make it harder for them to hide what they are doing. And the longer your nation goes without the death penalty, the more egregious it is when the authoritarians reinstitute it, the more obvious it is what they're doing.

Ekaros 4y ago
And the worst thing is that those who have been found as state actors to be murdering innocents are not punished. They are not treated like this or simply executed. And neither is the people who voted for them after this crime or part took to them with political funding. Really makes one wonder what would be just and working society.
somenameforme 4y ago
Looking at history, I'm not sure this is a reasonable argument. Vast numbers of governments have gone down this path, and not only authoritarian ones. Yet there's no need for a 'bad' government to rely on the death penalty or whatever else. Disappearing people is the normal method operandi. It's faster and reduces the chances of somebody becoming a martyr. And incidentally, indefinite detention without trial or representation, of US citizens, was legalized in 2012 [1]. An initial legal case against it managed to obtain a permanent injunction against indefinitely detaining US citizens. That victory was tossed out by a higher court who ruled that the plaintiffs lacked the standing for a preemptive challenge to the law. So they need to be indefinitely detained, then when released (if ever) they might be allowed to challenge the constitutionality of the law. Great system. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_Authorization_Act_for_Fiscal_Year_2012#Controversy_over_indefinite_detention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_Authorization...
bombcar 4y ago
Authoritarian boogeyman governments aren't going to death penalty people out of nowhere, they'll have tools and abilities to remove inconvenient people much more quietly. After all it's much easier to "remove" someone who was "resisting arrest" than go through the bother of a trial.