8 ms·

Telegram CEO accuses Apple of crushing entrepreneurs

109 points by firstSpeaker 4y ago

cglong 4y ago
Link to original statement: https://t.me/durov/190 https://t.me/durov/190
MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
There will be no super-apps in North America because Apple will not allow it.
- KerrAvon 4y ago
  Android is available in North America and Apple has no control over it whatsoever.
  - candiodari 4y ago
    Apple delivers to Google some double digit percentage of search revenue ... Apple has a LOT of control over it. Not 100% perhaps, but a lot. I realise this comes from a different business line, but between the same 2 companies ... Apple can make Google lose A LOT of money if they wanted to.
    - bastawhiz 4y ago
      Apple also gets billions of dollars for that search traffic from Google (they're not doing it as a nice favor), and they're already working on their own search engine. The argument that Apple has any control over Google because of search traffic hardly holds water at this point.
- bdcravens 4y ago
  Apple charges a high rent, but would lowering that rent somehow make an app a "super-app"?
- wmf 4y ago
  This is true but super-apps are bad. In this case Apple's monopoly is blocking another monopoly from emerging.
- DanAtC 4y ago
  iOS is basically a super app these days.
NayamAmarshe 4y ago
Does Durov really call himself a 'CEO'?
- bdcravens 4y ago
  Is he not? Telegram is an LLC, and he is head.
  - autotune 4y ago
    You can establish a LLC for about $500 online and update your LinkedIn to reflect your new position as CEO fyi.
    - kybernetyk 4y ago
      yes, and?
      - autotune 4y ago
        The point is, it is not like it is some grand undertaking to go through. Literally anyone can found a company and become its CEO.
        vetinari 4y ago
        Yes, It means that the barriers for entry are low and innovative people knowing something can easily found a company. That's a good thing.
        autotune 4y ago
        100 percent agree on that.
        bdcravens 4y ago
        Seems to me that's more of a problem with those that convey an inflated meaning to CEO than those using the title.
KerrAvon 4y ago
tl;dr: whinging about Apple’s 30% commission
- philjohn 4y ago
  It’s a ridiculous cut, whichever way you look at it. Modern day rent seeking.
  - bdcravens 4y ago
    What would be fair?
    - Ferrotin 4y ago
      No restrictions on what software people can run on their devices.
      - bdcravens 4y ago
        In that case, Apple's 30% would be fair then? It seems like most proposals from companies actually making money on the platform (as opposed to folks like you and I in the cheap seats) are to keep the experience the same for the users, with the same amount of value, only charge less.
        candiodari 4y ago
        Okay. I wrote the driver for network equipment you very likely used to get this post to ycombinator. The same driver you used to order that Apple app store fitness/note taking/goal/... app. Where's my 30%? Because the value I provided was critical to that transaction, to that experience, to the value provided. Others could have provided that value, but didn't. I can make the same argument you make. But I'm not a trillion dollar company. That's the real difference.
        Ferrotin 4y ago
        No, that’s just a start. I don’t care about “fair” — there isn’t really such a concept at play here. The fact that Apple’s reaching through Telegram into the third parties using the communications platform is really lame. It’s not just a direct relationship between Apple and an app. It is recursively affecting how two people who aren’t Apple or Telegram are able to conduct themselves.
bdcravens 4y ago
What then would be a fair commission? Credit card processing starts around 2-3% (though I'm sure Apple has negotiated a rate well below that, but it's not free). Hosting has value, as does marketing/discoverability (though apps like Telegram are big enough that it's diminished)
- philjohn 4y ago
  Telegram are the ones hosting the posts in this case.
  - bdcravens 4y ago
    Most apps have an API they use. Apple hosts the binaries to be installed, and hosts the payment APIs if they are use IAP. Perhaps it could be argued that each service that Apple provides should be billed separately.
    - saghm 4y ago
      This ignores the point that companies are required to use the App store to host the app and do payments though; I think plenty of companies would prefer to distribute the app and process payments externally to avoid the fee, but it's not feasible to provide apps to users any other way, and any external payment options are both not allowed to be communicated to users within the apps and not allowed to cost less than they do from within the app (making it impossible to pass the 30% on to users). Taking a cut of payments facilitated by your platform is a business model; forcing people to use your platform and then insisting on payment for your work is a protection racket.
      - bdcravens 4y ago
        So open platform, and Apple can charge whatever they want?
        redeeman 4y ago
        yes, allow installs outside of appstores, and allow people to make their own appstores, and yes, apple can charge what they want?
endisneigh 4y ago
Does telegram even have a web app? If they wanted they could circumvent apple entirely. They could also just remove their stuff from the App Store and focus on android without Play.
- riedel 4y ago
  https://web.telegram.org https://web.telegram.org
- duskwuff 4y ago
  Web applications on iOS can't currently send push notifications, which are basically required for a messenger app.
  - endisneigh 4y ago
    They will soon, but even if they couldn’t you could notify via SMS or email, or you know, follow apple’s rules.
kepler1 4y ago
Funny how quickly a company that invents something that enabled people to do things never before possible, gets accused of crushing people's dreams like it's a human rights violation, all based on a percentage.
matesz 4y ago
I’m surprised nobody mentioned possible solution in this conflict from legislative perspective - forcing Apple and other payment processors to show cost breakdown to the user. It should be in Apple Pay payment view overlay. Laud and clear. Very simple, it’s really not that hard to show the numbers. I’m not saying going as far as to show to which budget money goest to from 30% tax, that will be the case in 50 years anyway, but as a consumer I’m really not interested in that information. I mean just a simple breakdown, like on receipts about tax amount payed to government on each purchase. Not just Apple of course - but all companies playing this game - stripe, PayPal, visa, Mastercard etc. That’s because they act as a direct intermediary in such a fundamental branch of our economy, therefore society in general - money transfers. Banks have to show the fees, why not payment processors? Again it’s obvious and simple to implement [1]. I assure you a lot of eyebrows will raise when seeing 30% on a receipt - it will force Apple to add an explanation. And a lot more people will start paying in cash again. Now we need signatures and start lobbing governments. Maybe Europe is a better start because it seems government is more happy with adding regulations. [1] https://nwlc.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Brandys-walmart-receipt-8.webp https://nwlc.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Brandys-walmart-...
- bzzzt 4y ago
  Apple Pay charges approximately 0,15%, not 30%.
  - matesz 4y ago
    No no no, people are bamboozled into believing they can't get basic transparency, because <fill in some absurd excuse>. Apple Pay charges 0.15%. App Store charges 30%. I want to see both on the receipt. This is not rocket science. I can see how much government charges right? The point is to show me all intermediaries which are getting a cut directly from the purchase. App Store clearly is an intermediary. Tim Sweeney mentioned it as well - app developers cannot show cost breakdown in their own apps, it's an App Store rule [1]. I don't mean here to give users second option to pay without tax of course. Just showing information, so users understand pricing rules. We could push it a step further - show me all intermediaries taking a cut from any purchase and oh boy, this will be fun :) [1] https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/1553419096489877505?s=20&t=TKu00lrg5e8-63p33WxdQQ https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/155341909648987750...
CozyCheems 4y ago
Good thing the digital markets act will fix this, at least in the EU.
cudgy 4y ago
Does Telegram charge their users a fee to post content on their platform or take a percentage of the fees their users charge on their channels?
- fluential 4y ago
  Some users were using third party payment bots to sell access to specific posts content (paywall) and Apple didn’t like not getting cut of it.
  - cudgy 4y ago
    Sorry, my statement could have been more clear. I was interested in whether Telegram itself gets a cut of these transactions on their platform outside of the Apple cut. If so, it would seem hypocritical to criticize Apple for doing the same thing.
potamic 4y ago
While such complaints can gradually put pressure on regulators, businesses should just take a stand and stop supporting ios. Pull a leaf out of Apple's book and do what they did to flash. We have a wonderful platform in the web. The web is truly universal, has stood the test of time and is in many ways, better than native applications. Given how desktop technologies are slowly converging on web, I predict it is a matter of time before mobile apps follow suit. You might as well be the one to inspire this change. So stop complaining and be the change you want to see. If you run a half decent service your users care about, they will follow you to the web. Sometimes it only takes one for everyone else to follow.

109 points by firstSpeaker 4y ago

cglong 4y ago

Link to original statement: https://t.me/durov/190 https://t.me/durov/190

MonkeyMalarky 4y ago

There will be no super-apps in North America because Apple will not allow it.

KerrAvon 4y ago
Android is available in North America and Apple has no control over it whatsoever.
- candiodari 4y ago
  Apple delivers to Google some double digit percentage of search revenue ... Apple has a LOT of control over it. Not 100% perhaps, but a lot. I realise this comes from a different business line, but between the same 2 companies ... Apple can make Google lose A LOT of money if they wanted to.
  - bastawhiz 4y ago
    Apple also gets billions of dollars for that search traffic from Google (they're not doing it as a nice favor), and they're already working on their own search engine. The argument that Apple has any control over Google because of search traffic hardly holds water at this point.
bdcravens 4y ago
Apple charges a high rent, but would lowering that rent somehow make an app a "super-app"?
wmf 4y ago
This is true but super-apps are bad. In this case Apple's monopoly is blocking another monopoly from emerging.
DanAtC 4y ago
iOS is basically a super app these days.

NayamAmarshe 4y ago

Does Durov really call himself a 'CEO'?

bdcravens 4y ago
Is he not? Telegram is an LLC, and he is head.
- autotune 4y ago
  You can establish a LLC for about $500 online and update your LinkedIn to reflect your new position as CEO fyi.
  - kybernetyk 4y ago
    yes, and?
    - autotune 4y ago
      The point is, it is not like it is some grand undertaking to go through. Literally anyone can found a company and become its CEO.
      - vetinari 4y ago
        Yes, It means that the barriers for entry are low and innovative people knowing something can easily found a company. That's a good thing.
        autotune 4y ago
        100 percent agree on that.
      - bdcravens 4y ago
        Seems to me that's more of a problem with those that convey an inflated meaning to CEO than those using the title.

KerrAvon 4y ago

tl;dr: whinging about Apple’s 30% commission

philjohn 4y ago
It’s a ridiculous cut, whichever way you look at it. Modern day rent seeking.
- bdcravens 4y ago
  What would be fair?
  - Ferrotin 4y ago
    No restrictions on what software people can run on their devices.
    - bdcravens 4y ago
      In that case, Apple's 30% would be fair then? It seems like most proposals from companies actually making money on the platform (as opposed to folks like you and I in the cheap seats) are to keep the experience the same for the users, with the same amount of value, only charge less.
      - candiodari 4y ago
        Okay. I wrote the driver for network equipment you very likely used to get this post to ycombinator. The same driver you used to order that Apple app store fitness/note taking/goal/... app. Where's my 30%? Because the value I provided was critical to that transaction, to that experience, to the value provided. Others could have provided that value, but didn't. I can make the same argument you make. But I'm not a trillion dollar company. That's the real difference.
      - Ferrotin 4y ago
        No, that’s just a start. I don’t care about “fair” — there isn’t really such a concept at play here. The fact that Apple’s reaching through Telegram into the third parties using the communications platform is really lame. It’s not just a direct relationship between Apple and an app. It is recursively affecting how two people who aren’t Apple or Telegram are able to conduct themselves.

bdcravens 4y ago

What then would be a fair commission? Credit card processing starts around 2-3% (though I'm sure Apple has negotiated a rate well below that, but it's not free). Hosting has value, as does marketing/discoverability (though apps like Telegram are big enough that it's diminished)

philjohn 4y ago
Telegram are the ones hosting the posts in this case.
- bdcravens 4y ago
  Most apps have an API they use. Apple hosts the binaries to be installed, and hosts the payment APIs if they are use IAP. Perhaps it could be argued that each service that Apple provides should be billed separately.
  - saghm 4y ago
    This ignores the point that companies are required to use the App store to host the app and do payments though; I think plenty of companies would prefer to distribute the app and process payments externally to avoid the fee, but it's not feasible to provide apps to users any other way, and any external payment options are both not allowed to be communicated to users within the apps and not allowed to cost less than they do from within the app (making it impossible to pass the 30% on to users). Taking a cut of payments facilitated by your platform is a business model; forcing people to use your platform and then insisting on payment for your work is a protection racket.
    - bdcravens 4y ago
      So open platform, and Apple can charge whatever they want?
      - redeeman 4y ago
        yes, allow installs outside of appstores, and allow people to make their own appstores, and yes, apple can charge what they want?

endisneigh 4y ago

Does telegram even have a web app? If they wanted they could circumvent apple entirely. They could also just remove their stuff from the App Store and focus on android without Play.

riedel 4y ago
https://web.telegram.org https://web.telegram.org
duskwuff 4y ago
Web applications on iOS can't currently send push notifications, which are basically required for a messenger app.
- endisneigh 4y ago
  They will soon, but even if they couldn’t you could notify via SMS or email, or you know, follow apple’s rules.

kepler1 4y ago

Funny how quickly a company that invents something that enabled people to do things never before possible, gets accused of crushing people's dreams like it's a human rights violation, all based on a percentage.

matesz 4y ago

I’m surprised nobody mentioned possible solution in this conflict from legislative perspective - forcing Apple and other payment processors to show cost breakdown to the user. It should be in Apple Pay payment view overlay. Laud and clear. Very simple, it’s really not that hard to show the numbers. I’m not saying going as far as to show to which budget money goest to from 30% tax, that will be the case in 50 years anyway, but as a consumer I’m really not interested in that information. I mean just a simple breakdown, like on receipts about tax amount payed to government on each purchase. Not just Apple of course - but all companies playing this game - stripe, PayPal, visa, Mastercard etc. That’s because they act as a direct intermediary in such a fundamental branch of our economy, therefore society in general - money transfers. Banks have to show the fees, why not payment processors? Again it’s obvious and simple to implement [1]. I assure you a lot of eyebrows will raise when seeing 30% on a receipt - it will force Apple to add an explanation. And a lot more people will start paying in cash again. Now we need signatures and start lobbing governments. Maybe Europe is a better start because it seems government is more happy with adding regulations. [1] https://nwlc.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Brandys-walmart-receipt-8.webp https://nwlc.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Brandys-walmart-...

bzzzt 4y ago
Apple Pay charges approximately 0,15%, not 30%.
- matesz 4y ago
  No no no, people are bamboozled into believing they can't get basic transparency, because <fill in some absurd excuse>. Apple Pay charges 0.15%. App Store charges 30%. I want to see both on the receipt. This is not rocket science. I can see how much government charges right? The point is to show me all intermediaries which are getting a cut directly from the purchase. App Store clearly is an intermediary. Tim Sweeney mentioned it as well - app developers cannot show cost breakdown in their own apps, it's an App Store rule [1]. I don't mean here to give users second option to pay without tax of course. Just showing information, so users understand pricing rules. We could push it a step further - show me all intermediaries taking a cut from any purchase and oh boy, this will be fun :) [1] https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/1553419096489877505?s=20&t=TKu00lrg5e8-63p33WxdQQ https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/155341909648987750...

CozyCheems 4y ago

Good thing the digital markets act will fix this, at least in the EU.

cudgy 4y ago

Does Telegram charge their users a fee to post content on their platform or take a percentage of the fees their users charge on their channels?

fluential 4y ago
Some users were using third party payment bots to sell access to specific posts content (paywall) and Apple didn’t like not getting cut of it.
- cudgy 4y ago
  Sorry, my statement could have been more clear. I was interested in whether Telegram itself gets a cut of these transactions on their platform outside of the Apple cut. If so, it would seem hypocritical to criticize Apple for doing the same thing.

potamic 4y ago

While such complaints can gradually put pressure on regulators, businesses should just take a stand and stop supporting ios. Pull a leaf out of Apple's book and do what they did to flash. We have a wonderful platform in the web. The web is truly universal, has stood the test of time and is in many ways, better than native applications. Given how desktop technologies are slowly converging on web, I predict it is a matter of time before mobile apps follow suit. You might as well be the one to inspire this change. So stop complaining and be the change you want to see. If you run a half decent service your users care about, they will follow you to the web. Sometimes it only takes one for everyone else to follow.