4 ms·

Of course it's still bribery. The definition doesn't change just because you happen to agree with what they're getting bribed for.

Nanana909 4y ago
Okay, if you think having dinner while talking about cancer research is bribery, let me find you an even more bare bones example. Your representative has a town hall and afterwards you get a few minutes to speak with him. You argue that the number of stop signs in your neighborhood isn’t enough and causes danger. In other words, you lobby him to pursue increased stop signs in your area. He hears you out, you guys shake hands, and leave. As you have now engaged in lobbying, have you engaged in bribery? Clearly not. The two words are not synonyms.
- partyboob 4y ago
  I think the problem is that the behaviour that is called "lobbying" is better described as "bribery" when you look at the mechanics of what is actually happening. The words of course mean different things, but what is happening in the US is actually bribery.
  - hulitu 4y ago
    Not only in the US.
- johnchristopher 4y ago
  > Okay, if you think having dinner while talking about cancer research is bribery, let me find you an even more bare bones example. Who's footing the bill ?
- Test0129 4y ago
  I think you are trying to make a point where none needs to be made. Lobbying has, for a very long time, been another term for bribery. Even as recently as the COVID crisis. Why do you think Pfizer got all that juicy government money? Go look at open secrets and see who they paid. If you want a real shocker, look at their top donors and then look at their voting record. Look at all the politicians that end up at Pfizer, Exxon, Northrop, Google, etc. Look at all the executives for those companies that, as if by some miracle, end up running MAJOR parts of our government. You are correct in the literal sense lobbying was supposed to be about the everyman talking to their representative and convincing them to do right by them. However, now, the everyman has no voice. If you don't donate $X millions you won't even the time of day from most congressmen. It's corruption at it's core and an affront to democracy. It's disguised as "lobbying" because Citizens United allowed it to be. That's all.
  - candiddevmike 4y ago
    It's not even X millions, lots of Congress critters have been bought for much less. Still, most citizens can't donate 20k to 50 Congress critters on the same committee to get their agenda pushed through.
- klyrs 4y ago
  A representative talking to a constituent is an okay form of 'lobbying.' Notably, the representative isn't getting a tangible benefit. Lobbying is broad spectrum and on one end is politicians doing the right thing, and on the other end is corporations making huge donations to political campaigns which is effectively bribery. Lobbying, as it's practiced in US politics, is overwhelmed by the cash that corporations can splash around that individual constituents can never compete with. Your stalwart defense of the practice as a whole is missing the forest for a dead tree.
  - publicola1990 4y ago
    Even in this case representative is getting a tangible benefit that he is possible getting an opportunity to do something which they can in turn take credit for. A lobbyist getting an audience with someone in power therefore may lead to something that is mutually beneficial to the lobbyist and the person in power, without need for materialized bribes. Shutting nuance out of a discussion will mislead us.
    - Supermancho 4y ago
      > Shutting nuance out of a discussion will mislead us. Frequently, lobbying is used for corruption. The insinuation that nuanced perception can somehow alter this dynamic, is not compelling.
    - klyrs 4y ago
      Look, we've got a right to petition our government. Corporate personhood is an abomination that blows that into a barn-door of a loophole. There's a ton of gray area here, but material benefit is, or should be in my opinion, a pretty bright line between legitimacy and bribery. There's tons of nuance here; I'm responding to a person who appears to be insisting that there's absolutely nothing wrong with lobbying when in fact there are lots of problems with the actual practice as observed in the US.
- tluyben2 4y ago
  If the dinner bill is split it is ok, otherwise it can be considered bribery.
- klipt 4y ago
  > You argue that the number of stop signs in your neighborhood isn’t enough and causes danger. It's fine for normal people to lobby their representative. But if you're a billionaire telling your representative to close the roads near your house because you don't like normal people driving by, and anyway you travel by helicopter, and you donate millions every year to your representative's campaign so they'd better listen to you - then you're using money to increase your influence beyond "one man, one vote" and that's basically bribery.
- johnchristopher 4y ago
  > Okay, if you think having dinner while talking about cancer research is bribery, let me find you an even more bare bones example. wait Didn't you go from lobbying (getting a dinner specifically to discuss and convince): > Lets say a lobbyist for a nonprofit cancer research group has dinner with a representative and lobbies him to vote for increased cancer research at this dinner. Is this bribery? to having dinner and talking cancer research en passant: > having dinner while talking about cancer research With that being said, these matters are supposed to be debated on a parliament's floor and an elected parliament member should have his stance about cancer research in his program, that's what he sold/promised to people who voted for them.

Nanana909 4y ago

Okay, if you think having dinner while talking about cancer research is bribery, let me find you an even more bare bones example. Your representative has a town hall and afterwards you get a few minutes to speak with him. You argue that the number of stop signs in your neighborhood isn’t enough and causes danger. In other words, you lobby him to pursue increased stop signs in your area. He hears you out, you guys shake hands, and leave. As you have now engaged in lobbying, have you engaged in bribery? Clearly not. The two words are not synonyms.

partyboob 4y ago
I think the problem is that the behaviour that is called "lobbying" is better described as "bribery" when you look at the mechanics of what is actually happening. The words of course mean different things, but what is happening in the US is actually bribery.
- hulitu 4y ago
  Not only in the US.
johnchristopher 4y ago
> Okay, if you think having dinner while talking about cancer research is bribery, let me find you an even more bare bones example. Who's footing the bill ?
Test0129 4y ago
I think you are trying to make a point where none needs to be made. Lobbying has, for a very long time, been another term for bribery. Even as recently as the COVID crisis. Why do you think Pfizer got all that juicy government money? Go look at open secrets and see who they paid. If you want a real shocker, look at their top donors and then look at their voting record. Look at all the politicians that end up at Pfizer, Exxon, Northrop, Google, etc. Look at all the executives for those companies that, as if by some miracle, end up running MAJOR parts of our government. You are correct in the literal sense lobbying was supposed to be about the everyman talking to their representative and convincing them to do right by them. However, now, the everyman has no voice. If you don't donate $X millions you won't even the time of day from most congressmen. It's corruption at it's core and an affront to democracy. It's disguised as "lobbying" because Citizens United allowed it to be. That's all.
- candiddevmike 4y ago
  It's not even X millions, lots of Congress critters have been bought for much less. Still, most citizens can't donate 20k to 50 Congress critters on the same committee to get their agenda pushed through.
klyrs 4y ago
A representative talking to a constituent is an okay form of 'lobbying.' Notably, the representative isn't getting a tangible benefit. Lobbying is broad spectrum and on one end is politicians doing the right thing, and on the other end is corporations making huge donations to political campaigns which is effectively bribery. Lobbying, as it's practiced in US politics, is overwhelmed by the cash that corporations can splash around that individual constituents can never compete with. Your stalwart defense of the practice as a whole is missing the forest for a dead tree.
- publicola1990 4y ago
  Even in this case representative is getting a tangible benefit that he is possible getting an opportunity to do something which they can in turn take credit for. A lobbyist getting an audience with someone in power therefore may lead to something that is mutually beneficial to the lobbyist and the person in power, without need for materialized bribes. Shutting nuance out of a discussion will mislead us.
  - Supermancho 4y ago
    > Shutting nuance out of a discussion will mislead us. Frequently, lobbying is used for corruption. The insinuation that nuanced perception can somehow alter this dynamic, is not compelling.
  - klyrs 4y ago
    Look, we've got a right to petition our government. Corporate personhood is an abomination that blows that into a barn-door of a loophole. There's a ton of gray area here, but material benefit is, or should be in my opinion, a pretty bright line between legitimacy and bribery. There's tons of nuance here; I'm responding to a person who appears to be insisting that there's absolutely nothing wrong with lobbying when in fact there are lots of problems with the actual practice as observed in the US.
tluyben2 4y ago
If the dinner bill is split it is ok, otherwise it can be considered bribery.
klipt 4y ago
> You argue that the number of stop signs in your neighborhood isn’t enough and causes danger. It's fine for normal people to lobby their representative. But if you're a billionaire telling your representative to close the roads near your house because you don't like normal people driving by, and anyway you travel by helicopter, and you donate millions every year to your representative's campaign so they'd better listen to you - then you're using money to increase your influence beyond "one man, one vote" and that's basically bribery.
johnchristopher 4y ago
> Okay, if you think having dinner while talking about cancer research is bribery, let me find you an even more bare bones example. wait Didn't you go from lobbying (getting a dinner specifically to discuss and convince): > Lets say a lobbyist for a nonprofit cancer research group has dinner with a representative and lobbies him to vote for increased cancer research at this dinner. Is this bribery? to having dinner and talking cancer research en passant: > having dinner while talking about cancer research With that being said, these matters are supposed to be debated on a parliament's floor and an elected parliament member should have his stance about cancer research in his program, that's what he sold/promised to people who voted for them.