7 ms·

A 1% slowdown is a ridiculous low number IMHO. I would argue that almost no program is within 1% of the optimal speed (however you define it). Therefore practic

A 1% slowdown is a ridiculous low number IMHO. I would argue that almost no program is within 1% of the optimal speed (however you define it). Therefore practically it does not matter. If you think it matters then the consequence would be that you write everything in Assembler.

WalterBright 4y ago
> Therefore practically it does not matter. You won't notice it on your desktop. But you will notice it in cases I mentioned. Top shelf games also are not going to give up that 1%, or so the game devs tell me.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  And yet even the likes of Sony and Nintendo are working in major titles with Unity. Unity is also the official developer SDK for Microsoft's HoloLens Virtual Reality Toolkit.
  - jcelerier 4y ago
    And 70 million people go eat Mickey D's every day, doesn't make it good in any way. Whenever I play unity games (rarely to be honest as I play maybe 5-20 hours a year nowadays, but this has been consistent) I brace myself for a laggy experience. Most people don't care about this it seems but it really makes me want to close the game when there's a laggy scene (and definitely put the tech used in my blacklist).
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      I have the same happening to me with C and C++ games, so it isn't a given that the language along is the cause, rather the ability of the programmers.
      - jcelerier 4y ago
        The very vast majority of native games I played don't have the kind of lag that unity games have (and seem to do much more things). Only very bad one I could remember was Neverwinter nights 2.. that one was really unplayable even on god-tier computers
        pjmlp 4y ago
        I would still blame the programmers. Doing the game in C++ certainly hasn't helped Cyberpunk 2077 performance and being bug free.
        jcelerier 4y ago
        what Cyberpunk 2077 does is incomparable with the games I'm mentioning having lag in unity, which are slow-paced 2D games
        kaba0 4y ago
        Or maybe you just don’t notice it with unity games that work decently? A classic case of confirmation bias.
        jcelerier 4y ago
        the only games I noticed it to the point it was actively bothering me and distracting me from the game were: - Unity games - NWN2 which I mentioned - CrossCode which is an HTML5 game (while being an absolutely great game, performance wise this one was by far the worst I ever experienced, it's laggy on a fucking GTX1070 / 8750H / 32GB RAM system for a 2D pixel-art rpg and made me quit the game in rage more than once)
    - kaba0 4y ago
      A minor, not well-thought out use of shared pointers in C++ can easily add much more to execution time (and yes, I know it is not often used in game dev)
  - simplotek 4y ago
    > And yet even the likes of Sony and Nintendo are working in major titles with Unity. I don't think this is a reasonable remark. The whole point is that the 1% penalty is added on top of whatever choices "the likes of Sony and Nintendo" make. If they have alternatives that ensure them a performance win just by chosing the right tool to work with Unity, they won't choose the wrong one.
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      It definitly is, because despite being mostly C#, outside the graphics engine itself, they have decided it is the right tool for some of their projects. D had a chance in the games industry with Remedy and lost it, instead a language that supposedly lesser one, is being adopted by major platform owners.
      - simplotek 4y ago
        > It definitly is, because despite being mostly C#, outside the graphics engine itself, they have decided it is the right tool for some of their projects. No, it was not a reasonable remark. Pointing someone else's choice changes nothing. The point that you keep missing is that performance is a key decision factor, one among many, and baseline performance penalties imposed by a particular choice of programing is a factor that adds up to all other choices. If you degrade the performance of your offering without any relevant tradeoff, you're making it harder to justify it's adoption. Feel free to insist in your personal assertion. Those who care about performance feel strongly about gratuitously pile performance penalties without any meaningful tradeoff to show.
        pjmlp 4y ago
        A key factor and yet they are using Unity, because even for Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft, that tradewort is worthwhile from business point of view. Minecraft wouldn't never have happened if Notch was busy discussing if it would be acceptable at all doing it in Java. Just like too many in HN dream of being the next FANG, too many worry about the ultimate performance when their games would hardly win a fraction of Minecraft when placed into the market.
tomcam 4y ago
> Therefore practically it does not matter. Uh you know who’s so patiently answering your questions, right? My guess is that he’s been world famous at this since you were a twinkle in your daddy’s eye. He’s had a minute to think about it...
- saagarjha 4y ago
  Blind appeals to authority are not appropriate here. It’s pretty clear that Walter has staked out an unreasonable position, regardless of how renowned (and rightly so!) he is for his work on D.
  - tomcam 4y ago
    > Blind appeals to authority are not appropriate here. True! Duly upvoted. Although I feel his arguments are closely reasoned and don’t agree with your point. And the person I responded to brought nothing you to the table. Where is it that Walter is obviously wrong, by the way? Not trying to be argumentative. I just did not see the holes in his argument that you do.
    - tomcam 4y ago
      “Nothing to the table” NOT “nothing you to the table”. Apologies!
    - saagarjha 4y ago
      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33406377 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33406377
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    If my position is unreasonable, why hasn't the C Standard endorsed garbage collection? Or the C++ Standard? Rust's entire reason for existing is to find a way to make non-gc memory safe.
    - pjmlp 4y ago

WalterBright 4y ago

> Therefore practically it does not matter. You won't notice it on your desktop. But you will notice it in cases I mentioned. Top shelf games also are not going to give up that 1%, or so the game devs tell me.

pjmlp 4y ago
And yet even the likes of Sony and Nintendo are working in major titles with Unity. Unity is also the official developer SDK for Microsoft's HoloLens Virtual Reality Toolkit.
- jcelerier 4y ago
  And 70 million people go eat Mickey D's every day, doesn't make it good in any way. Whenever I play unity games (rarely to be honest as I play maybe 5-20 hours a year nowadays, but this has been consistent) I brace myself for a laggy experience. Most people don't care about this it seems but it really makes me want to close the game when there's a laggy scene (and definitely put the tech used in my blacklist).
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    I have the same happening to me with C and C++ games, so it isn't a given that the language along is the cause, rather the ability of the programmers.
    - jcelerier 4y ago
      The very vast majority of native games I played don't have the kind of lag that unity games have (and seem to do much more things). Only very bad one I could remember was Neverwinter nights 2.. that one was really unplayable even on god-tier computers
      - pjmlp 4y ago
        I would still blame the programmers. Doing the game in C++ certainly hasn't helped Cyberpunk 2077 performance and being bug free.
        jcelerier 4y ago
        what Cyberpunk 2077 does is incomparable with the games I'm mentioning having lag in unity, which are slow-paced 2D games
      - kaba0 4y ago
        Or maybe you just don’t notice it with unity games that work decently? A classic case of confirmation bias.
        jcelerier 4y ago
        the only games I noticed it to the point it was actively bothering me and distracting me from the game were: - Unity games - NWN2 which I mentioned - CrossCode which is an HTML5 game (while being an absolutely great game, performance wise this one was by far the worst I ever experienced, it's laggy on a fucking GTX1070 / 8750H / 32GB RAM system for a 2D pixel-art rpg and made me quit the game in rage more than once)
  - kaba0 4y ago
    A minor, not well-thought out use of shared pointers in C++ can easily add much more to execution time (and yes, I know it is not often used in game dev)
- simplotek 4y ago
  > And yet even the likes of Sony and Nintendo are working in major titles with Unity. I don't think this is a reasonable remark. The whole point is that the 1% penalty is added on top of whatever choices "the likes of Sony and Nintendo" make. If they have alternatives that ensure them a performance win just by chosing the right tool to work with Unity, they won't choose the wrong one.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    It definitly is, because despite being mostly C#, outside the graphics engine itself, they have decided it is the right tool for some of their projects. D had a chance in the games industry with Remedy and lost it, instead a language that supposedly lesser one, is being adopted by major platform owners.
    - simplotek 4y ago
      > It definitly is, because despite being mostly C#, outside the graphics engine itself, they have decided it is the right tool for some of their projects. No, it was not a reasonable remark. Pointing someone else's choice changes nothing. The point that you keep missing is that performance is a key decision factor, one among many, and baseline performance penalties imposed by a particular choice of programing is a factor that adds up to all other choices. If you degrade the performance of your offering without any relevant tradeoff, you're making it harder to justify it's adoption. Feel free to insist in your personal assertion. Those who care about performance feel strongly about gratuitously pile performance penalties without any meaningful tradeoff to show.
      - pjmlp 4y ago
        A key factor and yet they are using Unity, because even for Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft, that tradewort is worthwhile from business point of view. Minecraft wouldn't never have happened if Notch was busy discussing if it would be acceptable at all doing it in Java. Just like too many in HN dream of being the next FANG, too many worry about the ultimate performance when their games would hardly win a fraction of Minecraft when placed into the market.

tomcam 4y ago

> Therefore practically it does not matter. Uh you know who’s so patiently answering your questions, right? My guess is that he’s been world famous at this since you were a twinkle in your daddy’s eye. He’s had a minute to think about it...

saagarjha 4y ago
Blind appeals to authority are not appropriate here. It’s pretty clear that Walter has staked out an unreasonable position, regardless of how renowned (and rightly so!) he is for his work on D.
- tomcam 4y ago
  > Blind appeals to authority are not appropriate here. True! Duly upvoted. Although I feel his arguments are closely reasoned and don’t agree with your point. And the person I responded to brought nothing you to the table. Where is it that Walter is obviously wrong, by the way? Not trying to be argumentative. I just did not see the holes in his argument that you do.
  - tomcam 4y ago
    “Nothing to the table” NOT “nothing you to the table”. Apologies!
  - saagarjha 4y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33406377 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33406377
- WalterBright 4y ago
  If my position is unreasonable, why hasn't the C Standard endorsed garbage collection? Or the C++ Standard? Rust's entire reason for existing is to find a way to make non-gc memory safe.
  - pjmlp 4y ago