9 ms·

PayPal’s Objectionable Terms Are Back, $2500 Fines for Content They Don’t Like

208 points by that 4y ago

wtcactus 4y ago
Ongoing discussion at: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33348913 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33348913
- cactusplant7374 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
mgamache 4y ago
God I hate to say it, but Bitcoin fixes this (with the Lightning Network). https://lightning.network/ https://lightning.network/ I am not a Maxi, but Jesus what other options are there?
- throwaway12245 4y ago
  Cash, checks, Visa, Mastercard, Amex, Discover, barter.
  - rglover 4y ago
    > Cash Slowly being phased out. > checks Already spotty usage. > Visa, Mastercard, Amex, Discover Censorship possible. > barter Viable, but foolish considering it's cumbersome and we live in an age where perfectly viable technological solutions exist. It's like having an iron but pressing your shirts between books out in the sun.
    - delusional 4y ago
      > Crypto Viable, but foolish considering it's cumbersome.
      - rglover 4y ago
        My definition of "cumbersome" above is tradeability. Bitcoin can be transferred to anyone in the world in a few minutes (w/ on-chain confirms in ~10-60m or lightning confirms instantly). I've done business with people all of the world in places that have weak or non-existent banking thanks to Bitcoin. None of the above options made that possible.
    - Eumenes 4y ago
      Where can't you use cash?
      - anonym29 4y ago
        The internet, with extremely few exceptions.
        Eumenes 4y ago
        you can load a prepaid card at cvs/walgreens with cash, which can be used for most things
        anonym29 4y ago
        That 100% falls into the aforementioned category of Mastercard/Visa, where censorship is possible.
        Eumenes 4y ago
        I see where you're coming from, but do these require you to register? Do they need a billing address? Whats stopping someone from just getting a new one?
- unwoundmouse 4y ago
  zelle v̶e̶n̶m̶o̶ cashapp revolut ach wire ... and if you're concerned about centralization ethereum solana cosmos avalanche fantom monero aptos polygon ...
  - NDizzle 4y ago
    Paypal owns Venmo.
  - rootsudo 4y ago
    Zelle is more restrictive then paypal, and heavy limits, $500 daily - and more of a black hole then paypal.
    - Cyberdog 4y ago
      I used to pay rent with Zelle. It maxed out at $500 per transaction, but I could just do a second transaction to make up the difference. Same recipient, same day.
- rglover 4y ago
  None. Bitcoin is the only way to solve this problem, 100% outright. As long as trusting other humans is a part of the equation, problems of corruption, censorship, etc. will always be a problem.
  - qubex 4y ago
    You do realise that money was created to deal with a lack of trust, and that every time you ‘transact’ in money you’re actually expressing your lack of trust in your counterpart’s ability to “make good” on a barter?
    - judge2020 4y ago
      And yet when you send via Bitcoin, you're putting 100% trust in them following through on fulfilling their end of the deal. Only NFTs/smart contracts fix this, but for them to affect things in the real world you either need society or some oracle to use that smart contract as a source of truth.
      - qubex 4y ago
        Yeah precisely. I think you’ve made the mistake of thinking we’re on opposite sides of the argument.
      - rglover 4y ago
        Which means you have to actually have discernment and encourages the individual to build long-term relationships, not transactional ones. It's a bit abstract/esoteric, but using something like Bitcoin would re-humanize commerce vs the increasingly transactional nature of the world enabled by fiat/printing.
    - bpodgursky 4y ago
      That's not really accurate; favors aren't fungible. I can't give you potatoes, and then use that favor to take a cow from your neighbor. You have to keep track of the balance somehow.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- ZetaZero 4y ago
  How will Bitcoin fix it? If I buy a video card with bitcoin, but get sent a brick instead, how does "Blockchain as Arbiter" get my bitcoins back?
  - unwoundmouse 4y ago
    lets you decide who to trust to have the power to approve chargebacks instead of defacto trusting the fed
    - delusional 4y ago
      "The fed" doesn't approve chargebacks.
      - unwoundmouse 4y ago
        at a deeper level it does
  - rhino369 4y ago
    Paypal refused me a refund after someone didn't even send me a brick, but just sent me someone else's FedEx shipment confirmation. Didn't even say my address and was delivered before I ordered. I was instantly denied because their shitty AI dispute process just checks the FedEx zipcode. Paypal wouldn't even let me talk to a real person. Fuck that company. Use a credit card instead. Luckily, I payed paypal through a credit card. So I disputed it through the bank instead.
  - LightHugger 4y ago
    Bitcoin fixes it by reducing the number of scammers in the chain. if you deal with a seller and paypal, either the paypal or the seller can scam you. paypal is immune to bad press because their reputation is already rock bottom, so they don't even lose any reputation anymore by rampantly thieving and scamming. At least if, with a cryptocurrency, the seller scams you, you can voice it somewhere their reputation will be at risk. It doesn't delete the risk but the fixes the problem of "middle man is a scammer and thief and nobody is willing to do anything at all about it" that exists with paypal.
- coding123 4y ago
  Maybe CoDs or escrow needs to help.
- Dreako 4y ago
  lightning network will never scale as big as paypal sadly, this isnt it
sickusername 4y ago
I like how the headline rightly calls the terms "objectionable," which is exactly the word they use for content they don't like, where they alone get to decide how that term is defined and in what context.
bl_valance 4y ago
I don't understand why most journalist/users don't spend <5min on the wayback machine to see that this exact wording has been in the ToS since Sep 2021, and very similar wording since before that time. They didn't add anything after the backlash. People equate the 'Updated' message to mean that the wording is new, it is not. https://web.archive.org/web/20210922061858/https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full https://web.archive.org/web/20210922061858/https://www.paypa...
- croes 4y ago
  The passage even exists in the snapshot of 2013 https://web.archive.org/web/20131114024812/https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full https://web.archive.org/web/20131114024812/https://www.paypa...
devwastaken 4y ago
The U.S. dollar in a competitive, fair, and efficient market cannot be tied to the services of a few companies. Individuals must have the right to spend money independently. People have a right to participate in markets. Theres a few options - force all online sales to also accept bank transfers. Create a gov owned company that competes with these services (like USPS). Or regulate payment services on what can be considered things they don't have to service.
- Aerroon 4y ago
  I think governments should create a digital cash equivalent. One that cannot be tracked any more than regular cash can (at least legally). With all the benefits and downsides, because that's the only way it would be trusted enough to work. I think this would be a major boon to any economy that implements it well. People have no problem paying for small services in real life, because paying 30 cents is easy. Online though? It's not. It's hard for the people getting money and the people paying money.
  - prionassembly 4y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pix_(payment_system) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pix_(payment_system)
    - Aerroon 4y ago
      Neat!
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
    they'd much rather kill regular cash instead - and they will
elil17 4y ago
The article is saying that PayPal could "presumably" charge your linked bank account. If you read their actual user agreement it's clear that this is not the case - which makes sense, because that would open them up to a world of lawsuits. Speaking from experience, the reality is that when you owe PayPal money and they will try to withdraw it from your PayPal balance and then go to collections like any other business would.

208 points by that 4y ago

wtcactus 4y ago

Ongoing discussion at: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33348913 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33348913

cactusplant7374 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

mgamache 4y ago

God I hate to say it, but Bitcoin fixes this (with the Lightning Network). https://lightning.network/ https://lightning.network/ I am not a Maxi, but Jesus what other options are there?

throwaway12245 4y ago
Cash, checks, Visa, Mastercard, Amex, Discover, barter.
- rglover 4y ago
  > Cash Slowly being phased out. > checks Already spotty usage. > Visa, Mastercard, Amex, Discover Censorship possible. > barter Viable, but foolish considering it's cumbersome and we live in an age where perfectly viable technological solutions exist. It's like having an iron but pressing your shirts between books out in the sun.
  - delusional 4y ago
    > Crypto Viable, but foolish considering it's cumbersome.
    - rglover 4y ago
      My definition of "cumbersome" above is tradeability. Bitcoin can be transferred to anyone in the world in a few minutes (w/ on-chain confirms in ~10-60m or lightning confirms instantly). I've done business with people all of the world in places that have weak or non-existent banking thanks to Bitcoin. None of the above options made that possible.
  - Eumenes 4y ago
    Where can't you use cash?
    - anonym29 4y ago
      The internet, with extremely few exceptions.
      - Eumenes 4y ago
        you can load a prepaid card at cvs/walgreens with cash, which can be used for most things
        anonym29 4y ago
        That 100% falls into the aforementioned category of Mastercard/Visa, where censorship is possible.
        Eumenes 4y ago
        I see where you're coming from, but do these require you to register? Do they need a billing address? Whats stopping someone from just getting a new one?
unwoundmouse 4y ago
zelle v̶e̶n̶m̶o̶ cashapp revolut ach wire ... and if you're concerned about centralization ethereum solana cosmos avalanche fantom monero aptos polygon ...
- NDizzle 4y ago
  Paypal owns Venmo.
- rootsudo 4y ago
  Zelle is more restrictive then paypal, and heavy limits, $500 daily - and more of a black hole then paypal.
  - Cyberdog 4y ago
    I used to pay rent with Zelle. It maxed out at $500 per transaction, but I could just do a second transaction to make up the difference. Same recipient, same day.
rglover 4y ago
None. Bitcoin is the only way to solve this problem, 100% outright. As long as trusting other humans is a part of the equation, problems of corruption, censorship, etc. will always be a problem.
- qubex 4y ago
  You do realise that money was created to deal with a lack of trust, and that every time you ‘transact’ in money you’re actually expressing your lack of trust in your counterpart’s ability to “make good” on a barter?
  - judge2020 4y ago
    And yet when you send via Bitcoin, you're putting 100% trust in them following through on fulfilling their end of the deal. Only NFTs/smart contracts fix this, but for them to affect things in the real world you either need society or some oracle to use that smart contract as a source of truth.
    - qubex 4y ago
      Yeah precisely. I think you’ve made the mistake of thinking we’re on opposite sides of the argument.
    - rglover 4y ago
      Which means you have to actually have discernment and encourages the individual to build long-term relationships, not transactional ones. It's a bit abstract/esoteric, but using something like Bitcoin would re-humanize commerce vs the increasingly transactional nature of the world enabled by fiat/printing.
  - bpodgursky 4y ago
    That's not really accurate; favors aren't fungible. I can't give you potatoes, and then use that favor to take a cow from your neighbor. You have to keep track of the balance somehow.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ZetaZero 4y ago
How will Bitcoin fix it? If I buy a video card with bitcoin, but get sent a brick instead, how does "Blockchain as Arbiter" get my bitcoins back?
- unwoundmouse 4y ago
  lets you decide who to trust to have the power to approve chargebacks instead of defacto trusting the fed
  - delusional 4y ago
    "The fed" doesn't approve chargebacks.
    - unwoundmouse 4y ago
      at a deeper level it does
- rhino369 4y ago
  Paypal refused me a refund after someone didn't even send me a brick, but just sent me someone else's FedEx shipment confirmation. Didn't even say my address and was delivered before I ordered. I was instantly denied because their shitty AI dispute process just checks the FedEx zipcode. Paypal wouldn't even let me talk to a real person. Fuck that company. Use a credit card instead. Luckily, I payed paypal through a credit card. So I disputed it through the bank instead.
- LightHugger 4y ago
  Bitcoin fixes it by reducing the number of scammers in the chain. if you deal with a seller and paypal, either the paypal or the seller can scam you. paypal is immune to bad press because their reputation is already rock bottom, so they don't even lose any reputation anymore by rampantly thieving and scamming. At least if, with a cryptocurrency, the seller scams you, you can voice it somewhere their reputation will be at risk. It doesn't delete the risk but the fixes the problem of "middle man is a scammer and thief and nobody is willing to do anything at all about it" that exists with paypal.
coding123 4y ago
Maybe CoDs or escrow needs to help.
Dreako 4y ago
lightning network will never scale as big as paypal sadly, this isnt it

sickusername 4y ago

I like how the headline rightly calls the terms "objectionable," which is exactly the word they use for content they don't like, where they alone get to decide how that term is defined and in what context.

bl_valance 4y ago

I don't understand why most journalist/users don't spend <5min on the wayback machine to see that this exact wording has been in the ToS since Sep 2021, and very similar wording since before that time. They didn't add anything after the backlash. People equate the 'Updated' message to mean that the wording is new, it is not. https://web.archive.org/web/20210922061858/https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full https://web.archive.org/web/20210922061858/https://www.paypa...

croes 4y ago
The passage even exists in the snapshot of 2013 https://web.archive.org/web/20131114024812/https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full https://web.archive.org/web/20131114024812/https://www.paypa...

devwastaken 4y ago

The U.S. dollar in a competitive, fair, and efficient market cannot be tied to the services of a few companies. Individuals must have the right to spend money independently. People have a right to participate in markets. Theres a few options - force all online sales to also accept bank transfers. Create a gov owned company that competes with these services (like USPS). Or regulate payment services on what can be considered things they don't have to service.

Aerroon 4y ago
I think governments should create a digital cash equivalent. One that cannot be tracked any more than regular cash can (at least legally). With all the benefits and downsides, because that's the only way it would be trusted enough to work. I think this would be a major boon to any economy that implements it well. People have no problem paying for small services in real life, because paying 30 cents is easy. Online though? It's not. It's hard for the people getting money and the people paying money.
- prionassembly 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pix_(payment_system) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pix_(payment_system)
  - Aerroon 4y ago
    Neat!
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
  they'd much rather kill regular cash instead - and they will

elil17 4y ago

The article is saying that PayPal could "presumably" charge your linked bank account. If you read their actual user agreement it's clear that this is not the case - which makes sense, because that would open them up to a world of lawsuits. Speaking from experience, the reality is that when you owe PayPal money and they will try to withdraw it from your PayPal balance and then go to collections like any other business would.