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I am not. PHP is traditionally used solely for websites. Some of those have grown rather large, to the point that having engineers optimize the language is che

by crote 4y ago

I am not. PHP is traditionally used solely for websites. Some of those have grown rather large, to the point that having engineers optimize the language is cheaper than buying more servers. Python, on the other hand, is first and foremost a scripting language. When performance does matter, you often end up using a wrapper around a C library, like NumPy. This means there is relatively little money in optimizing the Python interpreter.

DeathArrow 4y ago
There are websites and large scale software. Google uses Python for a lot of its products. It would seem sensible that since Facebook poured a lot of resources in optimizing PHP, Google would have done the same for Python. Also, Python is the first or second most popular language.
- fuckstick 4y ago
  > It would seem sensible that since Facebook poured a lot of resources in optimizing PHP Well they sort of half assed tried years ago - they employed GvR at one point. Then they gave up and they continue to lean heavily on C++, Java and there is thing they developed in the interim: Go. > Also, Python is the first or second most popular language Hogwash. For all the open source and other development that occurs and is “indexed” on internet discussion forums there is countless boring ass shit behind the scenes in sweatshops around the world and corporate back rooms. PHP, Java, and C# are still probably more popular to start.
  - hnzix 4y ago
    Corporate has a faceless horde of Java devs.
    - DeathArrow 4y ago
      Lots of C#, too. And I specialized in C# since it seemed a little bit more enjoyable than Java at the time and the jobs were plenty. Of course, Java changed quite a bit since then so it might be more desirable than it was.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > For all the open source and other development that occurs and is “indexed” on internet discussion forums there is countless boring ass shit behind the scenes in sweatshops around the world and corporate back rooms. Much of which is also in Python.
    - ivan23178 4y ago
      JS is also very popular. Not for the same things as Python but in some aspects it's becoming modern PHP (which is still popular, if maybe aging somewhat kinda like Perl). But Python is definitely very popular for new back room stuff (source: long digital sweatshop career)
    - fuckstick 4y ago
      I mean, sure, but I’m just saying point me to a source that is ranking Python as #1 or #2 most popular. If it’s TIOBE or something similar it’s meaningless. I say this as someone that has made their career mostly on the “top 5” TIOBE languages - but that ranking is a bunch of crap for the overall commercial software world. C? Give me a fucking break. Never in 20 years have I known there to be more C than Java jobs. And now everyone and their dog including doctors and other non tech-savvy professionals are doing Intro to Python courses (and then never touching it again) so they too can feel like they know something about ML or stats. Lot of noise.
      - DeathArrow 4y ago
        >I mean, sure, but I’m just saying point me to a source that is ranking Python as #1 or #2 most popular. If it’s TIOBE or something similar it’s meaningless. According to 2022 Stack Overflow developer survey, if we exclude HTML, SQL and Bash, top five languages (as in being used by most developers) are: Javascript, Python, Typescript, Java and C#.
        rovr138 4y ago
        https://madnight.github.io/githut/#/pushes/ https://madnight.github.io/githut/#/pushes/ Checking here, if we go by pushes on GitHub, JS, Python, Ruby, Java, PHP are the top for 2021. This is of course biased to only stuff on GitHu band public (assuming, but doubt they're publishing private data on BigQuery). No idea how much of that is pet projects vs production of course.
- mgkimsal 4y ago
  > Python is the first or second most popular language. By what metrics? Redmond quarterly from June shows Python at #2, and PHP at #4. https://redmonk.com/sogrady/2022/10/20/language-rankings-6-22/ https://redmonk.com/sogrady/2022/10/20/language-rankings-6-2...
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > > Python is the first or second most popular language. > By what metrics? Hmm, why don’t you answer your own question? > Redmond quarterly from June shows Python at #2, That clearly is one that puts it “first or second”, yes.
    - mgkimsal 4y ago
      Yes, it was partially an answer, and it's not saying Python isn't high up. But still wanted to know by what metrics the GP was making their claim.
  - DeathArrow 4y ago
    Most metrics. Tiobe, Redmonk, Pypl, Stack Overflow survey. Top 10 and even top 5 is generally the same, the order might differ a bit. I've looked at various sources since the last 5 years and not much changed. I hoped some languages like Nim, Crystal or Zig would pick up a bit of steam, but no. Go and Rust moved up a bit and now seem safer bets to invest some time into.
- zitterbewegung 4y ago
  Instagram is a Django website (Django is a Python web framework).
skybrian 4y ago
It can't be explained by lack of effort. There have been several serious attempts to make Python run faster, including one by some Google engineers. Many of them fail, and the ones that succeeded to some extent aren't mainstream. It's hard. For Python, the C integration probably makes things harder.
habibur 4y ago
Interesting how a language written solely for websites, beats others in their own game which isn't about websites.

by crote 4y ago

DeathArrow 4y ago

There are websites and large scale software. Google uses Python for a lot of its products. It would seem sensible that since Facebook poured a lot of resources in optimizing PHP, Google would have done the same for Python. Also, Python is the first or second most popular language.

fuckstick 4y ago
> It would seem sensible that since Facebook poured a lot of resources in optimizing PHP Well they sort of half assed tried years ago - they employed GvR at one point. Then they gave up and they continue to lean heavily on C++, Java and there is thing they developed in the interim: Go. > Also, Python is the first or second most popular language Hogwash. For all the open source and other development that occurs and is “indexed” on internet discussion forums there is countless boring ass shit behind the scenes in sweatshops around the world and corporate back rooms. PHP, Java, and C# are still probably more popular to start.
- hnzix 4y ago
  Corporate has a faceless horde of Java devs.
  - DeathArrow 4y ago
    Lots of C#, too. And I specialized in C# since it seemed a little bit more enjoyable than Java at the time and the jobs were plenty. Of course, Java changed quite a bit since then so it might be more desirable than it was.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > For all the open source and other development that occurs and is “indexed” on internet discussion forums there is countless boring ass shit behind the scenes in sweatshops around the world and corporate back rooms. Much of which is also in Python.
  - ivan23178 4y ago
    JS is also very popular. Not for the same things as Python but in some aspects it's becoming modern PHP (which is still popular, if maybe aging somewhat kinda like Perl). But Python is definitely very popular for new back room stuff (source: long digital sweatshop career)
  - fuckstick 4y ago
    I mean, sure, but I’m just saying point me to a source that is ranking Python as #1 or #2 most popular. If it’s TIOBE or something similar it’s meaningless. I say this as someone that has made their career mostly on the “top 5” TIOBE languages - but that ranking is a bunch of crap for the overall commercial software world. C? Give me a fucking break. Never in 20 years have I known there to be more C than Java jobs. And now everyone and their dog including doctors and other non tech-savvy professionals are doing Intro to Python courses (and then never touching it again) so they too can feel like they know something about ML or stats. Lot of noise.
    - DeathArrow 4y ago
      >I mean, sure, but I’m just saying point me to a source that is ranking Python as #1 or #2 most popular. If it’s TIOBE or something similar it’s meaningless. According to 2022 Stack Overflow developer survey, if we exclude HTML, SQL and Bash, top five languages (as in being used by most developers) are: Javascript, Python, Typescript, Java and C#.
      - rovr138 4y ago
        https://madnight.github.io/githut/#/pushes/ https://madnight.github.io/githut/#/pushes/ Checking here, if we go by pushes on GitHub, JS, Python, Ruby, Java, PHP are the top for 2021. This is of course biased to only stuff on GitHu band public (assuming, but doubt they're publishing private data on BigQuery). No idea how much of that is pet projects vs production of course.
mgkimsal 4y ago
> Python is the first or second most popular language. By what metrics? Redmond quarterly from June shows Python at #2, and PHP at #4. https://redmonk.com/sogrady/2022/10/20/language-rankings-6-22/ https://redmonk.com/sogrady/2022/10/20/language-rankings-6-2...
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > > Python is the first or second most popular language. > By what metrics? Hmm, why don’t you answer your own question? > Redmond quarterly from June shows Python at #2, That clearly is one that puts it “first or second”, yes.
  - mgkimsal 4y ago
    Yes, it was partially an answer, and it's not saying Python isn't high up. But still wanted to know by what metrics the GP was making their claim.
- DeathArrow 4y ago
  Most metrics. Tiobe, Redmonk, Pypl, Stack Overflow survey. Top 10 and even top 5 is generally the same, the order might differ a bit. I've looked at various sources since the last 5 years and not much changed. I hoped some languages like Nim, Crystal or Zig would pick up a bit of steam, but no. Go and Rust moved up a bit and now seem safer bets to invest some time into.
zitterbewegung 4y ago
Instagram is a Django website (Django is a Python web framework).

skybrian 4y ago

It can't be explained by lack of effort. There have been several serious attempts to make Python run faster, including one by some Google engineers. Many of them fail, and the ones that succeeded to some extent aren't mainstream. It's hard. For Python, the C integration probably makes things harder.

habibur 4y ago

Interesting how a language written solely for websites, beats others in their own game which isn't about websites.