5 ms·

It's just too old for people to be outraged about still.

by pkulak 4y ago

anonym29 4y ago
By this logic, should we not be outraged by 19th and 20th century genocide?
- pkulak 4y ago
  I'm not telling you what emotions to have, just observing the world around me.
- Alupis 4y ago
  > By this logic, should we not be outraged by 19th and 20th century genocide? Well, no. I don't think you will actually find a real person living today that matches a real definition of "outrage" for genocides in the 19th and 20th centuries. Discarding performative theatrics, you will find people who all agree it was bad... but they won't be literally outraged. The passing of time, and generations, has that affect.
  - kragen 4y ago
    Pretty sure Holocaust survivors and their immediate families, not to mention the scarcer immediate family members of Holocaust non-survivors, are still outraged about the Holocaust. I don't think that's performative theatrics.
    - Spooky23 4y ago
      Performative theatrics is attempting in any way to contrast Intel vPro with the Holocaust.
      - kragen 4y ago
        Intel vPro and similar systems centralize power over communication and record-keeping in a way that has historically been both necessary and sufficient to cause atrocities like the Holocaust, the Great Leap Forward, GULAG, and so on. But, because of newly pervasive computer mediation of day-to-day interactions, these spyware systems potentially provide a degree of centralized social control that Stalin or Mao could never have dreamed of. Recent infringements on human rights in XUAR provide a preview of the resulting future. Essentialist explanations that attribute them to some unique depravity of the Chinese race are utterly implausible; they are due to the lack of effective checks and balances on state power. Consequently we can expect the atrocities resulting from systems like vPro to be far worse than the Holocaust or any other historical events.
        Alupis 4y ago
        I cannot tell if you are arguing in good faith or if this is some very clever wit. Comparing vPro to Stalin, Mao, the Holocaust and more is really not serving to forward your argument... particularly while you have an iPhone or Android device in your pocket, watch curated TV content on your Smart TV, and drive your modern car into the office where you use your Windows or OSX computer and ISP provided DNS. This would definitely count in the "performative theatrics" category of any normal book. Why is this age so sensationalized? Words are becoming meaningless due to overuse, abuse and re-definition to fit convenient arguments...
        kragen 4y ago
        I am not comparing vPro to Mao, and no reasonable person could construe my comment as comparing vPro to Mao. I am comparing vPro (and similar hardware backdoors) to the totalitarian central government control established by the PRC in the early 01950s, in compliance with widely accepted Communist doctrine, which resulted in inevitable atrocities several years later — in this case, the Great Leap Forward, which was the worst famine in human history. Mao was far from unique among heads of totalitarian states in carrying out mass atrocities. Like hardware backdoors today, totalitarianism was new enough at the time that reasonable people could disagree about its likely effects, but in retrospect the causality is obvious. I do not have an iPhone or Android device in my pocket (although I do carry one on special occasions), watch "curated" TV content on a "Smart TV", drive a modern car, or use [Microsoft] Windows or OSX. Furthermore, there is no basis for you to suspect that I do these things; you are attempting to drag HN down into the slime of Twitter-style "gotchas" instead of attempting to rise to the level of collaborative exploration of the truth. Moreover, even if I did suffer these afflictions, it wouldn't make my argument invalid — even if it were not so wide of the mark, your inept attempt at a rebuttal is at best an argumentum ad hominem of the same sort as those who dismiss Noam Chomsky's criticism of US foreign policy on the basis that he pays US income tax. I am disappointed in your total failure to engage in rational argument. You're arguing at the animal layer of vague emotional associations rather than reasoning about causes and effects. Please, try to do better. (I do use ISP-provided DNS, which is a problem but not in the same category.)
      - anonym29 4y ago
        I'm in no way conflating the impact of the two, I'm pointing out that the implication of the original comment "It's just too old for people to be outraged about still", is that people shouldn't be outraged at evil things solely because those evil things happened a long time ago. The implication itself is ridiculous. Time does not make evil things less evil. To suggest that I'm contrasting the impact of ME (not the same as vPro) with the holocaust is either blatantly missing the point or a deliberate, bad faith strawman.
        Alupis 4y ago
        The word "outrage" is problematic. It implies, by it's very definition, that the mere mention of these things brings people into a furry of uncontrollable anger. I would wager people are abusing the word and changing it's meaning to sensationally signal displeasure or disappointment with historical events. Those are not the same. Outrage has an emotional immediacy to it. It's really hard to be actually outraged by events that transpired 40 years ago, 100 year ago, centuries ago or more. I assert there is no human alive today that is actually, really outraged by the Holocaust or any of the other atrocities mankind has perpetuated over it's history. Who would they be outraged with? Hitler - who has been dead for 77 years? It would be quite emotionally immature to be literally outraged with any of this in a modern context...
        kragen 4y ago
        > I assert there is no human alive today that is actually, really outraged by the Holocaust You could hardly be more wrong. > It would be quite emotionally immature to be literally outraged with any of this Your implicit claim to possess superior emotional maturity to those Holocaust survivors who remain outraged is both false and repugnant.
        Alupis 4y ago
        > Your implicit claim to possess superior emotional maturity I do possess superior emotional maturity over those who wield the Holocaust as a tool in arguments about computer processors for internet points... yes. > Holocaust survivors who remain outraged I think your interpretation of "outrage" needs updating.
    - lmm 4y ago
      Not the impression I've got. People come to terms with it - I'm not saying they would be wrong to still be outraged, but the human mind isn't built to keep that up for decades.
- charcircuit 4y ago
  Yes, as someone born in the 21st century all of that is just stuff in some history book that I was forced to learn to pass some test.
- hsbauauvhabzb 4y ago
  Those two things have disproportionate direct impact and can’t really be compared on the same level. But apples for apples, school educates students about genocide and not about the privacy considerations of backdoor chips.
  - anonym29 4y ago
    I'm in no way conflating the impact of the two, I'm pointing out that the implication of the original comment "It's just too old for people to be outraged about still", is that people shouldn't be outraged at evil things solely because those evil things happened a long time ago. The implication itself is ridiculous. Time does not make evil things less evil. To suggest that I'm contrasting the impact of ME (not the same as vPro) with the holocaust is either blatantly missing my point (that the implication of the original comment is obviously completely false) or a deliberate, bad faith strawman.

It's just too old for people to be outraged about still.

by pkulak 4y ago

It's just too old for people to be outraged about still.

anonym29 4y ago

By this logic, should we not be outraged by 19th and 20th century genocide?

pkulak 4y ago
I'm not telling you what emotions to have, just observing the world around me.
Alupis 4y ago
> By this logic, should we not be outraged by 19th and 20th century genocide? Well, no. I don't think you will actually find a real person living today that matches a real definition of "outrage" for genocides in the 19th and 20th centuries. Discarding performative theatrics, you will find people who all agree it was bad... but they won't be literally outraged. The passing of time, and generations, has that affect.
- kragen 4y ago
  Pretty sure Holocaust survivors and their immediate families, not to mention the scarcer immediate family members of Holocaust non-survivors, are still outraged about the Holocaust. I don't think that's performative theatrics.
  - Spooky23 4y ago
    Performative theatrics is attempting in any way to contrast Intel vPro with the Holocaust.
    - kragen 4y ago
      Intel vPro and similar systems centralize power over communication and record-keeping in a way that has historically been both necessary and sufficient to cause atrocities like the Holocaust, the Great Leap Forward, GULAG, and so on. But, because of newly pervasive computer mediation of day-to-day interactions, these spyware systems potentially provide a degree of centralized social control that Stalin or Mao could never have dreamed of. Recent infringements on human rights in XUAR provide a preview of the resulting future. Essentialist explanations that attribute them to some unique depravity of the Chinese race are utterly implausible; they are due to the lack of effective checks and balances on state power. Consequently we can expect the atrocities resulting from systems like vPro to be far worse than the Holocaust or any other historical events.
      - Alupis 4y ago
        I cannot tell if you are arguing in good faith or if this is some very clever wit. Comparing vPro to Stalin, Mao, the Holocaust and more is really not serving to forward your argument... particularly while you have an iPhone or Android device in your pocket, watch curated TV content on your Smart TV, and drive your modern car into the office where you use your Windows or OSX computer and ISP provided DNS. This would definitely count in the "performative theatrics" category of any normal book. Why is this age so sensationalized? Words are becoming meaningless due to overuse, abuse and re-definition to fit convenient arguments...
        kragen 4y ago
        I am not comparing vPro to Mao, and no reasonable person could construe my comment as comparing vPro to Mao. I am comparing vPro (and similar hardware backdoors) to the totalitarian central government control established by the PRC in the early 01950s, in compliance with widely accepted Communist doctrine, which resulted in inevitable atrocities several years later — in this case, the Great Leap Forward, which was the worst famine in human history. Mao was far from unique among heads of totalitarian states in carrying out mass atrocities. Like hardware backdoors today, totalitarianism was new enough at the time that reasonable people could disagree about its likely effects, but in retrospect the causality is obvious. I do not have an iPhone or Android device in my pocket (although I do carry one on special occasions), watch "curated" TV content on a "Smart TV", drive a modern car, or use [Microsoft] Windows or OSX. Furthermore, there is no basis for you to suspect that I do these things; you are attempting to drag HN down into the slime of Twitter-style "gotchas" instead of attempting to rise to the level of collaborative exploration of the truth. Moreover, even if I did suffer these afflictions, it wouldn't make my argument invalid — even if it were not so wide of the mark, your inept attempt at a rebuttal is at best an argumentum ad hominem of the same sort as those who dismiss Noam Chomsky's criticism of US foreign policy on the basis that he pays US income tax. I am disappointed in your total failure to engage in rational argument. You're arguing at the animal layer of vague emotional associations rather than reasoning about causes and effects. Please, try to do better. (I do use ISP-provided DNS, which is a problem but not in the same category.)
    - anonym29 4y ago
      I'm in no way conflating the impact of the two, I'm pointing out that the implication of the original comment "It's just too old for people to be outraged about still", is that people shouldn't be outraged at evil things solely because those evil things happened a long time ago. The implication itself is ridiculous. Time does not make evil things less evil. To suggest that I'm contrasting the impact of ME (not the same as vPro) with the holocaust is either blatantly missing the point or a deliberate, bad faith strawman.
      - Alupis 4y ago
        The word "outrage" is problematic. It implies, by it's very definition, that the mere mention of these things brings people into a furry of uncontrollable anger. I would wager people are abusing the word and changing it's meaning to sensationally signal displeasure or disappointment with historical events. Those are not the same. Outrage has an emotional immediacy to it. It's really hard to be actually outraged by events that transpired 40 years ago, 100 year ago, centuries ago or more. I assert there is no human alive today that is actually, really outraged by the Holocaust or any of the other atrocities mankind has perpetuated over it's history. Who would they be outraged with? Hitler - who has been dead for 77 years? It would be quite emotionally immature to be literally outraged with any of this in a modern context...
        kragen 4y ago
        > I assert there is no human alive today that is actually, really outraged by the Holocaust You could hardly be more wrong. > It would be quite emotionally immature to be literally outraged with any of this Your implicit claim to possess superior emotional maturity to those Holocaust survivors who remain outraged is both false and repugnant.
        Alupis 4y ago
        > Your implicit claim to possess superior emotional maturity I do possess superior emotional maturity over those who wield the Holocaust as a tool in arguments about computer processors for internet points... yes. > Holocaust survivors who remain outraged I think your interpretation of "outrage" needs updating.
  - lmm 4y ago
    Not the impression I've got. People come to terms with it - I'm not saying they would be wrong to still be outraged, but the human mind isn't built to keep that up for decades.
charcircuit 4y ago
Yes, as someone born in the 21st century all of that is just stuff in some history book that I was forced to learn to pass some test.
hsbauauvhabzb 4y ago
Those two things have disproportionate direct impact and can’t really be compared on the same level. But apples for apples, school educates students about genocide and not about the privacy considerations of backdoor chips.
- anonym29 4y ago
  I'm in no way conflating the impact of the two, I'm pointing out that the implication of the original comment "It's just too old for people to be outraged about still", is that people shouldn't be outraged at evil things solely because those evil things happened a long time ago. The implication itself is ridiculous. Time does not make evil things less evil. To suggest that I'm contrasting the impact of ME (not the same as vPro) with the holocaust is either blatantly missing my point (that the implication of the original comment is obviously completely false) or a deliberate, bad faith strawman.