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Agreed. We hired someone who simply lied about getting their degree. OP mentioned having to bring a diploma, and to me that does indeed seem ridiculous. In th

Agreed. We hired someone who simply lied about getting their degree. OP mentioned having to bring a diploma, and to me that does indeed seem ridiculous. In the USA, the National Student Clearinghouse [1] provides degree verification that is the standard. It is much more reliable than someone showing a piece of paper. How do I know this? The hire who lied about graduating also produced a falsified diploma, which blew me away. I confirmed it was false because when I checked with the university in question, they pointed out some things that confirmed although it was similar, they never would have issued one like this. (And the registrar confirmed this person did indeed never graduate) [1] https://nscverifications.org/ https://nscverifications.org/

charlieyu1 4y ago
Isn't it criminal offence to provide fake documents?
- lazide 4y ago
  In most jurisdictions, you bet. It’s also a criminal offense to lie about material job history or qualifications. It’s rarely prosecuted outside of high profile cases though. So employers beware and all.
  - betaby 4y ago
    "Ex-Yahoo CEO Scott Thompson claimed he had computer science and accounting degrees from Stonehill College in Easton, Massachusetts. In fact, he only had the accounting degree." https://www.marketwatch.com/story/5-big-shots-who-lied-on-their-resumes-2014-09-18 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/5-big-shots-who-lied-on-th...
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - vxNsr 4y ago
      The sad part was he was actually a very competent CEO and after he left they had a revolving door of CEOs until they admitted failure and sold the company.
- bluedino 4y ago
  This happens quite often. We had a mayor in the past who claimed to have a degree in civics or something from a university, when that was found out to not be true, they issued a press release trying to save face. He was re-elected, somehow.
  - merely-unlikely 4y ago
    I get the anecdotal impression that bad deeds in politics mostly serve as confirmation for those who already don't like the politician and are largely ignored or excused by those who do like him/her.
  - darkhorn 4y ago
    Same issue with Erdoğan. He was never able to prove that he had a university diploma. Plus, while he opens criminal cases for absurd tweets he never went to court for people who claimed that his diploma is fake.
- ZanyProgrammer 4y ago
  *citation needed. You’re gonna have to be a lot more specific
ghaff 4y ago
I would have no idea where my actual physical diplomas are.
- itronitron 4y ago
  Most, and possibly all, universities have a registrar's office through which you can order copies of transcripts/diplomas. I only know this because I had to submit transcripts as part of a job application, decades after graduating :)
  - coldpie 4y ago
    Attending university is one of the biggest regrets of my life. I'd rather find a different job than have to have any contact with that scam world again.
  - bane 4y ago
    In the U.S., almost all registrars offices now just use the National Clearinghouse service. Many schools will simply refer you or your browser to their site. They also track student enrollment, so if you are a company paying for somebody to go to school and want to verify it, you can, or if somebody claims they are close to finishing you can verify enrollment through the Clearinghouse.
caskstrength 4y ago
> Agreed. We hired someone who simply lied about getting their degree. Were there any problems with their performance? I mean, why do you care about their diploma if they were able to pass interview and then perform on the job afterwards?
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  If they lied to get the job, they've demonstrated a willingness to be dishonest for personal gain. What will they do on the job if an opportunity presents itself?
  - yamtaddle 4y ago
    ~Everybody lies to get jobs. The interview process demands it. "Why do you want to work here?" being a common one. In most situations you can't answer that honestly without being rejected, and there are other similar, very-common questions. You're supposed to be socially-aware enough to tell the right sort of lie. 10:1 you've repeatedly been lied to regarding "tell me about a time that..." questions, if you ask those, and had no idea it was a lie (though you may have caught, or suspected, some poorly-done ones). Why? The good story will beat the truth every time, unless you've lucked into your truth also being a good story. At a minimum most of the ones that give a good impression have had a lot of editing and embellishment. I do agree that outright fabricating credentials is a worse lie, but the job market and interview process is morally corrosive by nature.
    - throwaway1995v2 4y ago
      I totally agree with this, In particular with the typical "Why do you want to work for this company?" or "Why are you leaving your current job?" The honest and most common answer "I want more money" makes you look greedy and you had to come up with a more acceptable excuse, Like "Your product is very interesting", "I'm "Looking for new challenges". kind of like the initial steps of dating where you kind of know what the other is up to but you don't talk about it until you had evaluated each other and decided that "yeah I want to be your girlfriend" or "yeah I want to hire you" and then you finally can take your mask off and talk with honesty. Monkey brain fault, I guess
ksec 4y ago
Oh this is exactly what I am looking for. I wonder if UK and EU has something similar.
- derjames 4y ago
  I the UK, I used at some point an Apostille service to verify my UK issued degree. This additional document helps on the verification of authenticity of the degree.
- karmelapple 4y ago
  Glad it's helpful! That's why I shared it - I had never heard of it until someone with more HR background than me recommended it.
Balgair 4y ago
Well, I'm horrified by this. I don't want anyone to have such easy access to such personal information of mine without my consent. The opt-out process for the site is detailed here: https://www.studentclearinghouse.org/privacy-policy/ https://www.studentclearinghouse.org/privacy-policy/ Crtl+F for 'opt-out" and you can find the email address there and other information.
- karmelapple 4y ago
  As the FTC mentions on their website [1]: > Most college registrars will confirm dates of attendance and graduation, as well as degrees awarded and majors, upon request And for the National Student Clearinghouse, you do need a person's name, school, and date of birth. Although date of birth might not be wildly difficult to get, it is an extra piece of info that won't surface if finding someone's name randomly on the internet or in a phone book. The report is very plain - it confirms basically what the FTC quote mentions. Given that registrars give out that info, are you still concerned? If so, I'm interested in what you would propose as a solution if you are applying to a job and they want to confirm that what you have stated on your resume is true. Perhaps a system like credit scores use where you can lock your credit against being checked, and then unlock it for a short time window? I'm sure HN can think of all kinds of clever approaches to allowing this, and perhaps the clearinghouse website will indeed change significantly sometime. I consider the clearinghouse's approach as similar to the insecurity of checking account numbers. Basically, if someone has your name, checking account, and routing number, they can ask a bank for money from your account. As an account holder, I've asked my bank, "Can I tell you to not give money to certain parties from my account?" And their answer was a flat no. I am much more concerned with that, and nothing is changing on that front anytime soon. At least I can move my money somewhere without a checking account, but it's still fairly hard to live without a checking account somewhere. [1] https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/avoid-fake-degree-burns-researching-academic-credentials https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/avoid-fake-d...
  - d110af5ccf 4y ago
    > Given that registrars give out that info, are you still concerned? Yes, absolutely. It should not be legal for registrars to be doing that either IMO. I don't generally think that it should be legal to build businesses on the exchange of third party information without the direct consent of the third party in each specific instance. In times past, perhaps a reasonable approach would have been to fax a photocopy of the alleged degree to the registrar or clearinghouse for pass/fail verification. These days the individual ought to be able to initiate the registrar or clearinghouse to send a digitally signed document to the company.

charlieyu1 4y ago

Isn't it criminal offence to provide fake documents?

lazide 4y ago
In most jurisdictions, you bet. It’s also a criminal offense to lie about material job history or qualifications. It’s rarely prosecuted outside of high profile cases though. So employers beware and all.
- betaby 4y ago
  "Ex-Yahoo CEO Scott Thompson claimed he had computer science and accounting degrees from Stonehill College in Easton, Massachusetts. In fact, he only had the accounting degree." https://www.marketwatch.com/story/5-big-shots-who-lied-on-their-resumes-2014-09-18 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/5-big-shots-who-lied-on-th...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - vxNsr 4y ago
    The sad part was he was actually a very competent CEO and after he left they had a revolving door of CEOs until they admitted failure and sold the company.
bluedino 4y ago
This happens quite often. We had a mayor in the past who claimed to have a degree in civics or something from a university, when that was found out to not be true, they issued a press release trying to save face. He was re-elected, somehow.
- merely-unlikely 4y ago
  I get the anecdotal impression that bad deeds in politics mostly serve as confirmation for those who already don't like the politician and are largely ignored or excused by those who do like him/her.
- darkhorn 4y ago
  Same issue with Erdoğan. He was never able to prove that he had a university diploma. Plus, while he opens criminal cases for absurd tweets he never went to court for people who claimed that his diploma is fake.
ZanyProgrammer 4y ago
*citation needed. You’re gonna have to be a lot more specific

ghaff 4y ago

I would have no idea where my actual physical diplomas are.

itronitron 4y ago
Most, and possibly all, universities have a registrar's office through which you can order copies of transcripts/diplomas. I only know this because I had to submit transcripts as part of a job application, decades after graduating :)
- coldpie 4y ago
  Attending university is one of the biggest regrets of my life. I'd rather find a different job than have to have any contact with that scam world again.
- bane 4y ago
  In the U.S., almost all registrars offices now just use the National Clearinghouse service. Many schools will simply refer you or your browser to their site. They also track student enrollment, so if you are a company paying for somebody to go to school and want to verify it, you can, or if somebody claims they are close to finishing you can verify enrollment through the Clearinghouse.

caskstrength 4y ago

> Agreed. We hired someone who simply lied about getting their degree. Were there any problems with their performance? I mean, why do you care about their diploma if they were able to pass interview and then perform on the job afterwards?

SoftTalker 4y ago
If they lied to get the job, they've demonstrated a willingness to be dishonest for personal gain. What will they do on the job if an opportunity presents itself?
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  ~Everybody lies to get jobs. The interview process demands it. "Why do you want to work here?" being a common one. In most situations you can't answer that honestly without being rejected, and there are other similar, very-common questions. You're supposed to be socially-aware enough to tell the right sort of lie. 10:1 you've repeatedly been lied to regarding "tell me about a time that..." questions, if you ask those, and had no idea it was a lie (though you may have caught, or suspected, some poorly-done ones). Why? The good story will beat the truth every time, unless you've lucked into your truth also being a good story. At a minimum most of the ones that give a good impression have had a lot of editing and embellishment. I do agree that outright fabricating credentials is a worse lie, but the job market and interview process is morally corrosive by nature.
  - throwaway1995v2 4y ago
    I totally agree with this, In particular with the typical "Why do you want to work for this company?" or "Why are you leaving your current job?" The honest and most common answer "I want more money" makes you look greedy and you had to come up with a more acceptable excuse, Like "Your product is very interesting", "I'm "Looking for new challenges". kind of like the initial steps of dating where you kind of know what the other is up to but you don't talk about it until you had evaluated each other and decided that "yeah I want to be your girlfriend" or "yeah I want to hire you" and then you finally can take your mask off and talk with honesty. Monkey brain fault, I guess

ksec 4y ago

Oh this is exactly what I am looking for. I wonder if UK and EU has something similar.

derjames 4y ago
I the UK, I used at some point an Apostille service to verify my UK issued degree. This additional document helps on the verification of authenticity of the degree.
karmelapple 4y ago
Glad it's helpful! That's why I shared it - I had never heard of it until someone with more HR background than me recommended it.

Balgair 4y ago

Well, I'm horrified by this. I don't want anyone to have such easy access to such personal information of mine without my consent. The opt-out process for the site is detailed here: https://www.studentclearinghouse.org/privacy-policy/ https://www.studentclearinghouse.org/privacy-policy/ Crtl+F for 'opt-out" and you can find the email address there and other information.

karmelapple 4y ago
As the FTC mentions on their website [1]: > Most college registrars will confirm dates of attendance and graduation, as well as degrees awarded and majors, upon request And for the National Student Clearinghouse, you do need a person's name, school, and date of birth. Although date of birth might not be wildly difficult to get, it is an extra piece of info that won't surface if finding someone's name randomly on the internet or in a phone book. The report is very plain - it confirms basically what the FTC quote mentions. Given that registrars give out that info, are you still concerned? If so, I'm interested in what you would propose as a solution if you are applying to a job and they want to confirm that what you have stated on your resume is true. Perhaps a system like credit scores use where you can lock your credit against being checked, and then unlock it for a short time window? I'm sure HN can think of all kinds of clever approaches to allowing this, and perhaps the clearinghouse website will indeed change significantly sometime. I consider the clearinghouse's approach as similar to the insecurity of checking account numbers. Basically, if someone has your name, checking account, and routing number, they can ask a bank for money from your account. As an account holder, I've asked my bank, "Can I tell you to not give money to certain parties from my account?" And their answer was a flat no. I am much more concerned with that, and nothing is changing on that front anytime soon. At least I can move my money somewhere without a checking account, but it's still fairly hard to live without a checking account somewhere. [1] https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/avoid-fake-degree-burns-researching-academic-credentials https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/avoid-fake-d...
- d110af5ccf 4y ago
  > Given that registrars give out that info, are you still concerned? Yes, absolutely. It should not be legal for registrars to be doing that either IMO. I don't generally think that it should be legal to build businesses on the exchange of third party information without the direct consent of the third party in each specific instance. In times past, perhaps a reasonable approach would have been to fax a photocopy of the alleged degree to the registrar or clearinghouse for pass/fail verification. These days the individual ought to be able to initiate the registrar or clearinghouse to send a digitally signed document to the company.