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Working multiple full time W2 jobs without employer consent is not moonlighting. Both employers believe you are working for them full time during business hours

by cacois 4y ago

Working multiple full time W2 jobs without employer consent is not moonlighting. Both employers believe you are working for them full time during business hours, which would be false. This practice is deceptive. Meeting productivity targets is an important aspect of your job, but so is being available during business hours, meetings/collaborations, etc. Moonlighting is working another job outside of business hours - which I agree, employers have less of a right to object to.

pc86 4y ago
If you're attending the meetings you're required to attend, are completing the work you're required to complete by the agreed-upon deadlines, and are not working for a competitor, it is no business of my employer's what I'm doing at any given hour of the day. This paternalistic bullshit will be the downfall of companies who care more about micromanaging and controlling their underpaid employees than they do about actually delivering something to the market. If someone isn't producing, fire them. If someone is only being given 10 hours a week of work, and they have enough free time to get another W2 job and earn another full-time salary, that's 100% a company/management problem.
- balderdash 4y ago
  Except in your example, did the employee turn in the the work that was assigned Monday morning on Tuesday morning, and say “I’m done what’s next”, or did they lie and turn it in Friday and say it took all week? If you want to get paid by the hour or unit rate, be a consultant.
  - pc86 4y ago
    If it was due by Friday who cares?
  - lucasyvas 4y ago
    This doesn't make any sense. Most people are salaried and their time isn't tracked that way anyway. To a certain point I agree with you, but how much an employee actually outputs is a constant negotiation between the business and the employee - this is where expectation comes into play. If you are performing beyond the baseline, you can negotiate to be compensated for exceeding it, or you can take a break. There is no expectation that an employee should perform more work "for free" just because they can. I believe in fairness between both sides - there is no free lunch in either direction.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      Ultimately it comes down to deception. If an employee can do everything requested without lying, then maybe there is a defense. This position collapses the first time someone's boss asks about workload and the employee has to lie or admit they have tons of free time. Im sure there are unicorn cases where employees are never asked how long a task will take, or about their bandwidth for new tasks. However, in reality, the vast majority of situations require constant deception. Most of the time the lying starts at the beginning with false employment history.
    - b112 4y ago
      This doesn't make any sense. Most people are salaried and their time isn't tracked that way anyway. Most employment contracts, even for salaried workers, list things such as "37.5hrs per week". If this is the understanding, and you aren't working diligently for those hours, you're a thief and fraudster, a scam artist, and should be fired. If you get done a task early, ask for more work! The attitude of people in this thread is laughable. People in this field are some of the most privileged, well paid members of our society. To hear such persons moan and bleet over their lot is laughable. Grow up people. Just disgusting.
      - lucasyvas 4y ago
        You have to dedicate those those 37.5 hours, of course. But personal capability determines how those 37.5 hours play out. If I can hypothetically output three times the amount of work in the same time as one other person, it's a raw deal to output max - you burn out for one. As well, that means you're good and you neogiate. I don't know if anyone was advocating for going as far as you're suggesting (break doesn't mean paid vacation) - merely pointing out that an employee is granted the right to negotiate their labor at any point. If they get declined, that's fine. But the idea that you are a literal slave for 37.5 hours regardless of your capability is very flawed and you'll never convince the person that actually creates value of that. The funny part for me is that I have grown up - I used to share your position but time and time again I was proved wrong, so I changed my mind.
        4y ago
  - ameister14 4y ago
    Are there incentives in place for the employee to turn in work early and ask "what's next?" Most people won't lie about it when they turn it in on Friday, they'll just turn it in when it is due and not explain. Why turn it in early if there is no reward for doing so other than more work? As I've said elsewhere, this is a management problem, not an employee problem. As a manager I made sure people knew that there was a path to promotion, to advance within the corporation. I checked and tracked their progress and their work, and worked myself to make an environment where contributions were noted and rewarded. If a company or manager doesn't do that, they won't have people outperforming the base expectations for long, and they don't deserve to.
- SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
  At most companies, part of what they're paying you for is to be engaged during business hours. You're not just a contracting service who accepts requirements and tosses results back over the wall; you're a human resource, meant to be available for your coworkers as needed. In a hypothetical case where someone only has 10 hours of stuff to do a week, I'm sympathetic, I'd be pretty bored by that too. But when I see a SWE describe a scenario like that, most of the time they end up meaning that they have 10 hours of coding tasks a week, because they don't consider anything else to be a real part of their job.

by cacois 4y ago

pc86 4y ago

If you're attending the meetings you're required to attend, are completing the work you're required to complete by the agreed-upon deadlines, and are not working for a competitor, it is no business of my employer's what I'm doing at any given hour of the day. This paternalistic bullshit will be the downfall of companies who care more about micromanaging and controlling their underpaid employees than they do about actually delivering something to the market. If someone isn't producing, fire them. If someone is only being given 10 hours a week of work, and they have enough free time to get another W2 job and earn another full-time salary, that's 100% a company/management problem.

balderdash 4y ago
Except in your example, did the employee turn in the the work that was assigned Monday morning on Tuesday morning, and say “I’m done what’s next”, or did they lie and turn it in Friday and say it took all week? If you want to get paid by the hour or unit rate, be a consultant.
- pc86 4y ago
  If it was due by Friday who cares?
- lucasyvas 4y ago
  This doesn't make any sense. Most people are salaried and their time isn't tracked that way anyway. To a certain point I agree with you, but how much an employee actually outputs is a constant negotiation between the business and the employee - this is where expectation comes into play. If you are performing beyond the baseline, you can negotiate to be compensated for exceeding it, or you can take a break. There is no expectation that an employee should perform more work "for free" just because they can. I believe in fairness between both sides - there is no free lunch in either direction.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    Ultimately it comes down to deception. If an employee can do everything requested without lying, then maybe there is a defense. This position collapses the first time someone's boss asks about workload and the employee has to lie or admit they have tons of free time. Im sure there are unicorn cases where employees are never asked how long a task will take, or about their bandwidth for new tasks. However, in reality, the vast majority of situations require constant deception. Most of the time the lying starts at the beginning with false employment history.
  - b112 4y ago
    This doesn't make any sense. Most people are salaried and their time isn't tracked that way anyway. Most employment contracts, even for salaried workers, list things such as "37.5hrs per week". If this is the understanding, and you aren't working diligently for those hours, you're a thief and fraudster, a scam artist, and should be fired. If you get done a task early, ask for more work! The attitude of people in this thread is laughable. People in this field are some of the most privileged, well paid members of our society. To hear such persons moan and bleet over their lot is laughable. Grow up people. Just disgusting.
    - lucasyvas 4y ago
      You have to dedicate those those 37.5 hours, of course. But personal capability determines how those 37.5 hours play out. If I can hypothetically output three times the amount of work in the same time as one other person, it's a raw deal to output max - you burn out for one. As well, that means you're good and you neogiate. I don't know if anyone was advocating for going as far as you're suggesting (break doesn't mean paid vacation) - merely pointing out that an employee is granted the right to negotiate their labor at any point. If they get declined, that's fine. But the idea that you are a literal slave for 37.5 hours regardless of your capability is very flawed and you'll never convince the person that actually creates value of that. The funny part for me is that I have grown up - I used to share your position but time and time again I was proved wrong, so I changed my mind.
      - 4y ago
- ameister14 4y ago
  Are there incentives in place for the employee to turn in work early and ask "what's next?" Most people won't lie about it when they turn it in on Friday, they'll just turn it in when it is due and not explain. Why turn it in early if there is no reward for doing so other than more work? As I've said elsewhere, this is a management problem, not an employee problem. As a manager I made sure people knew that there was a path to promotion, to advance within the corporation. I checked and tracked their progress and their work, and worked myself to make an environment where contributions were noted and rewarded. If a company or manager doesn't do that, they won't have people outperforming the base expectations for long, and they don't deserve to.
SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
At most companies, part of what they're paying you for is to be engaged during business hours. You're not just a contracting service who accepts requirements and tosses results back over the wall; you're a human resource, meant to be available for your coworkers as needed. In a hypothetical case where someone only has 10 hours of stuff to do a week, I'm sympathetic, I'd be pretty bored by that too. But when I see a SWE describe a scenario like that, most of the time they end up meaning that they have 10 hours of coding tasks a week, because they don't consider anything else to be a real part of their job.