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Student A that passes a Calculus exam may be be more likely to know Calculus than student B that fails but so what? Passing a Calculus test doesn't necessarily

Student A that passes a Calculus exam may be be more likely to know Calculus than student B that fails but so what? Passing a Calculus test doesn't necessarily predict if the student can apply their knowledge to production to generate new ideas and widgets which make our lives better, it just predicts that Student A can follow rules and learn something _when required by an authority_. I think this sentiment is similar to how people feel about Leet Code interview questions. So what if an engineer can invert a binary tree if they can't formulate new, useful ideas and convince others to work on them? Perhaps student A is more likely be create new, better widgets than student B but I think academicia/LC cannot test this directly, which is what people are getting at when they criticize tests.

AnimalMuppet 4y ago
Again, though, if creating new, better widgets requires calculus, student A may not have what it takes, but student B almost certainly can't do it. Some jobs require a creativity, a spark, a something that you can't test for. But they also require some solid skills, and those skills are testable.
- thethethethe 4y ago
  > Again, though, if creating new, better widgets requires calculus, student A may not have what it takes, but student B almost certainly can't do it. I'm not so sure about this. What if student A was just better suited to learn Calculus when they were tested while student B bored by the class and teacher and stopped going/caring but, if given the chance to apply themselves in a non-academic setting working on real problems that affect people's lives, student B would learn Calculus twice as fast as student A and deliver a better widget in less time? There are many more scenarios here that I could list but I think the primary point is that the context around the students, their lives, and the testing environment matters a lot and this is something that cannot easily be accounted for using numerical test scores > But they also require some solid skills, and those skills are testable Maybe badly. Leet Code is supposed to do this but is famously criticized. Probably better than nothing I suppose
  - hardware2win 4y ago
    Environment matters Nobody says that tests are perfect They are just the best thing we managed to find Go ahead and design something as fair as tests that takes env/context as input too.
impossiblefork 4y ago
>Passing a Calculus test doesn't necessarily predict if the student can apply their knowledge to production to generate new ideas and widgets which make our lives better It actually does though, because if he fails, then you can be completely certain that he can't.
- xyzzy_plugh 4y ago
  No, you can't. You can only possibly be completely certain that the student is not good at calculus tests.
  - impossiblefork 4y ago
    If you can't do calculus in a stressful situation, you can't do it, anymore than you can understand french if you can't understand it when people speak it at full speed.
    - xyzzy_plugh 4y ago
      Huh? How often is calculus ever done in stressful situations outside of tests? Seriously this seems like a bad example... I feel like you're making my point here. I can speak french and be spoken to, order off a menu, etc. but I can't understand when two native speakers are conversing. Are you saying I don't understand french?
      - impossiblefork 4y ago
        When the deadline for your papers are approaching, when your competitors are closing in and about to scoop you, when you're using calculus in order to make financial trading decisions, etcetera. Everything is time constrained.
        thethethethe 4y ago
        > Everything is time constrained Yeah but not to the same degree or in the same way. Having to sit in a room with no sources for an hour and shit out some test answers is not really same as having weeks to apply yourself with access to appropriate resources, references, and guidance from more senior coworkers.
hardware2win 4y ago
Go ahead and figure out this method for determining who is genius and who is not But that method will need to be able to predict future events that shape the person Tests dont say that you cannot be successful, it just says how prepared you are, now.
- thethethethe 4y ago
  Not sure why you are being flippant. I am trying to point out that the methods we use to "determine who is a genius and who is not" are deeply flawed and rudimentary, letting people fall through the cracks and preventing people with different learning styles for succeeding. Like I said in another comment, I am terrible at testing and failed my way through school but I am still able to have a successful career as a software engineer applying maths to engineering problems that other people are excited about and want to work on. The reasons for this are complex because I am complex, like all people, but not like numerical test scores. > But that method will need to be able to predict future events that shape the person I think individuals are capable of qualitatively assessing a person's ability and trajectory given enough information, time, and context. Humans may come to the wrong conclusions a lot of the time but so do academic tests...
  - hardware2win 4y ago
    Because while tests arent perfect, then they are the best available method that is transparent/fair at scale If you want the change, then propose an improvement. ________ >I think individuals are capable of qualitatively assessing a person's ability and trajectory given enough information, time, and context. Humans may come to the wrong conclusions a lot of the time but so do academic tests... Ive heard countless stories like teacher telling student that he will be not even close to being successful due to not giving a damn about school and yet they manage to do fine So no, i dont think people of school are capable of this at scale You would need smart and open minded and up to date people to at least try to do that reasonably
    - thethethethe 4y ago
      > If you want the change, then propose an improvement. I don't need to have a solution to have valid criticisms of an existing system. I am just sharing my experience with testing, how it has affected my life, and why it didn't work for me. That said, I do think we can improve our ability to assess (not test) people by: * Putting less emphasis/focus on tests and more focus on long form project work and interpersonal relationships with peers and instructors * provide more flexibility to students when testing them (like access to resources/notes, more time, allow them to ask questions etc). > You would need smart and open minded and up to date people to at least try to do that reasonably I would certainly hope that the people teaching the next generation were smart, open minded and up to date. Testing doesn't control this anyway, a bad teacher will be unfair and have bad curriculum regardless if they test their students formally or not.

AnimalMuppet 4y ago

Again, though, if creating new, better widgets requires calculus, student A may not have what it takes, but student B almost certainly can't do it. Some jobs require a creativity, a spark, a something that you can't test for. But they also require some solid skills, and those skills are testable.

thethethethe 4y ago
> Again, though, if creating new, better widgets requires calculus, student A may not have what it takes, but student B almost certainly can't do it. I'm not so sure about this. What if student A was just better suited to learn Calculus when they were tested while student B bored by the class and teacher and stopped going/caring but, if given the chance to apply themselves in a non-academic setting working on real problems that affect people's lives, student B would learn Calculus twice as fast as student A and deliver a better widget in less time? There are many more scenarios here that I could list but I think the primary point is that the context around the students, their lives, and the testing environment matters a lot and this is something that cannot easily be accounted for using numerical test scores > But they also require some solid skills, and those skills are testable Maybe badly. Leet Code is supposed to do this but is famously criticized. Probably better than nothing I suppose
- hardware2win 4y ago
  Environment matters Nobody says that tests are perfect They are just the best thing we managed to find Go ahead and design something as fair as tests that takes env/context as input too.

impossiblefork 4y ago

>Passing a Calculus test doesn't necessarily predict if the student can apply their knowledge to production to generate new ideas and widgets which make our lives better It actually does though, because if he fails, then you can be completely certain that he can't.

xyzzy_plugh 4y ago
No, you can't. You can only possibly be completely certain that the student is not good at calculus tests.
- impossiblefork 4y ago
  If you can't do calculus in a stressful situation, you can't do it, anymore than you can understand french if you can't understand it when people speak it at full speed.
  - xyzzy_plugh 4y ago
    Huh? How often is calculus ever done in stressful situations outside of tests? Seriously this seems like a bad example... I feel like you're making my point here. I can speak french and be spoken to, order off a menu, etc. but I can't understand when two native speakers are conversing. Are you saying I don't understand french?
    - impossiblefork 4y ago
      When the deadline for your papers are approaching, when your competitors are closing in and about to scoop you, when you're using calculus in order to make financial trading decisions, etcetera. Everything is time constrained.
      - thethethethe 4y ago
        > Everything is time constrained Yeah but not to the same degree or in the same way. Having to sit in a room with no sources for an hour and shit out some test answers is not really same as having weeks to apply yourself with access to appropriate resources, references, and guidance from more senior coworkers.

hardware2win 4y ago

Go ahead and figure out this method for determining who is genius and who is not But that method will need to be able to predict future events that shape the person Tests dont say that you cannot be successful, it just says how prepared you are, now.

thethethethe 4y ago
Not sure why you are being flippant. I am trying to point out that the methods we use to "determine who is a genius and who is not" are deeply flawed and rudimentary, letting people fall through the cracks and preventing people with different learning styles for succeeding. Like I said in another comment, I am terrible at testing and failed my way through school but I am still able to have a successful career as a software engineer applying maths to engineering problems that other people are excited about and want to work on. The reasons for this are complex because I am complex, like all people, but not like numerical test scores. > But that method will need to be able to predict future events that shape the person I think individuals are capable of qualitatively assessing a person's ability and trajectory given enough information, time, and context. Humans may come to the wrong conclusions a lot of the time but so do academic tests...
- hardware2win 4y ago
  Because while tests arent perfect, then they are the best available method that is transparent/fair at scale If you want the change, then propose an improvement. ________ >I think individuals are capable of qualitatively assessing a person's ability and trajectory given enough information, time, and context. Humans may come to the wrong conclusions a lot of the time but so do academic tests... Ive heard countless stories like teacher telling student that he will be not even close to being successful due to not giving a damn about school and yet they manage to do fine So no, i dont think people of school are capable of this at scale You would need smart and open minded and up to date people to at least try to do that reasonably
  - thethethethe 4y ago
    > If you want the change, then propose an improvement. I don't need to have a solution to have valid criticisms of an existing system. I am just sharing my experience with testing, how it has affected my life, and why it didn't work for me. That said, I do think we can improve our ability to assess (not test) people by: * Putting less emphasis/focus on tests and more focus on long form project work and interpersonal relationships with peers and instructors * provide more flexibility to students when testing them (like access to resources/notes, more time, allow them to ask questions etc). > You would need smart and open minded and up to date people to at least try to do that reasonably I would certainly hope that the people teaching the next generation were smart, open minded and up to date. Testing doesn't control this anyway, a bad teacher will be unfair and have bad curriculum regardless if they test their students formally or not.