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> The ship's designer was Hein Jakobsson, the same master shipbuilder who completed Vasa. He realized that Vasa had the wrong proportions even before she was la

by jfk13 4y ago

> The ship's designer was Hein Jakobsson, the same master shipbuilder who completed Vasa. He realized that Vasa had the wrong proportions even before she was launched, which could lead to instability. And indeed, she tipped, foundered and sank on her maiden voyage. > The Apple was therefore built wider than the Vasa, but despite this, the ship was not successful... Being a "master shipbuilder" in those days was apparently a tough gig.

colourgarden 4y ago
> He realized that Vasa had the wrong proportions even before she was launched Not only did he realise it, he proved it. Days before launching the ship, he had 30 men run across the deck to demonstrate its stability. The ship listed badly and they stopped the demonstration before the King arrived.
abcd_f 4y ago
And the proportions of Vasa were wrong only because the king got to participate in and drive the design process.
- pavlov 4y ago
  In fact being a master shipbuilder in 1612 was very similar to being a master software architect in 2022.
  - labster 4y ago
    That would explain why someone wrote IT shanties. https://www.npr.org/2022/01/22/1074964815/opinion-sea-shanties-written-for-the-digital-age https://www.npr.org/2022/01/22/1074964815/opinion-sea-shanti...
    - floren 4y ago
      Not a patch on the White Collar Holler: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsDkmVo2fg4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsDkmVo2fg4
sorenjan 4y ago
Hein Jakobsson completed Vasa, but wasn't the original designer. That was Henrik Hybertsson. Jakobsson widened Vasa somewhat to try to improve it, and Äpplet was even wider. Äpplet was in use for almost 30 years, and was deliberately sunk.
- lproven 4y ago
  > Jakobsson widened Vasa somewhat to try to improve it, As I recall, the king ordered him to add more gun decks, and he did as he was told. Disobeying a king went badly in the 17th century...
  - palata 4y ago
    "Just quickly add this one more feature, you'll have time to refactor after the release"
    - lproven 4y ago
      Ha! :-D Exactly so.
bjacobt 4y ago
And there was unreasonable expectation and pressure from management https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasa_syndrome https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasa_syndrome Edited
- thaumasiotes 4y ago
  Don't link to mobile wikipedia. It is incredibly rude to people who want the normal site, while being of zero benefit to people who want the mobile site.
  - kzrdude 4y ago
    It has been said that mobile wikipedia is more user friendly on any platform, basically a more modern user interface than the standard desktop interface. Thus having benefit to everyone.
    - thaumasiotes 4y ago
  - teddyh 4y ago
    That used to annoy me a lot, but then I installed https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/skip-mobile-wikipedia/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/skip-mobile-w... and forgot about it.
    - fsckboy 4y ago
      it annoys me a lot, but I don't blame it on the people posting, but on the people who put a one way trap door in the code on the site that's on top of my annoyance with the huge number of people who didn't understand what was good about original html markup and set about adding pixel counts and thinking they needed to know the screen size etc. It's the same people who don't understand unix.
      - 4y ago
melony 4y ago
> Being a "master shipbuilder" in those days was apparently a tough gig. I heard Boeing's hiring. Maybe they can set him up with a nice software defined pitch corrector too.
mandevil 4y ago
This is one of the things that reading D.K. Brown's pentology on design of RN ships (_Before the Ironclad_, _Warrior to Dreadnought_, _Grand Fleet_, _Nelson to Vanguard_, and _Rebuilding the Royal Navy_) drives home: in the pre-WWI era almost everything is done with fudge factors and building off of what was done before, but a little different, and even into the 1950's there are lots of room for error. One story that has stuck with me is of a destroyer class in WW2 that performed particularly horribly because of an error on calculating the metacentric height. The proper procedure for calculating it was to have two different dudes each spend a week calculating it independently and hoping that their numbers matched. Apparently, in the rush of what had to be done, the RCNC cut some corners and only had one draftsman do it in this case, and he made an error and now the ships rolled horrifically. But even Bouguer and Euler- the people inventing metacentric height calculations- are working a century after the Vasa, so a master shipbuilder in that era just has his working experience and no real math to help him.
- tored 4y ago
  If you follow the excellent YouTube channel Drachinifel you will learn that many ships of that era (including WW2) had design flaws, like heavy rolling, flooding into compartments, breaking of the hull etc. This was the time before computer models and computer simulation.
- driscoll42 4y ago
  I... did not need five more books to read, but now I do.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
xorcist 4y ago
A precursor of "fail fast, fail often" perhaps?

by jfk13 4y ago

colourgarden 4y ago

> He realized that Vasa had the wrong proportions even before she was launched Not only did he realise it, he proved it. Days before launching the ship, he had 30 men run across the deck to demonstrate its stability. The ship listed badly and they stopped the demonstration before the King arrived.

abcd_f 4y ago

And the proportions of Vasa were wrong only because the king got to participate in and drive the design process.

pavlov 4y ago
In fact being a master shipbuilder in 1612 was very similar to being a master software architect in 2022.
- labster 4y ago
  That would explain why someone wrote IT shanties. https://www.npr.org/2022/01/22/1074964815/opinion-sea-shanties-written-for-the-digital-age https://www.npr.org/2022/01/22/1074964815/opinion-sea-shanti...
  - floren 4y ago
    Not a patch on the White Collar Holler: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsDkmVo2fg4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsDkmVo2fg4

sorenjan 4y ago

Hein Jakobsson completed Vasa, but wasn't the original designer. That was Henrik Hybertsson. Jakobsson widened Vasa somewhat to try to improve it, and Äpplet was even wider. Äpplet was in use for almost 30 years, and was deliberately sunk.

lproven 4y ago
> Jakobsson widened Vasa somewhat to try to improve it, As I recall, the king ordered him to add more gun decks, and he did as he was told. Disobeying a king went badly in the 17th century...
- palata 4y ago
  "Just quickly add this one more feature, you'll have time to refactor after the release"
  - lproven 4y ago
    Ha! :-D Exactly so.

bjacobt 4y ago

And there was unreasonable expectation and pressure from management https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasa_syndrome https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasa_syndrome Edited

thaumasiotes 4y ago
Don't link to mobile wikipedia. It is incredibly rude to people who want the normal site, while being of zero benefit to people who want the mobile site.
- kzrdude 4y ago
  It has been said that mobile wikipedia is more user friendly on any platform, basically a more modern user interface than the standard desktop interface. Thus having benefit to everyone.
  - thaumasiotes 4y ago
- teddyh 4y ago
  That used to annoy me a lot, but then I installed https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/skip-mobile-wikipedia/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/skip-mobile-w... and forgot about it.
  - fsckboy 4y ago
    it annoys me a lot, but I don't blame it on the people posting, but on the people who put a one way trap door in the code on the site that's on top of my annoyance with the huge number of people who didn't understand what was good about original html markup and set about adding pixel counts and thinking they needed to know the screen size etc. It's the same people who don't understand unix.
    - 4y ago

melony 4y ago

> Being a "master shipbuilder" in those days was apparently a tough gig. I heard Boeing's hiring. Maybe they can set him up with a nice software defined pitch corrector too.

mandevil 4y ago

This is one of the things that reading D.K. Brown's pentology on design of RN ships (_Before the Ironclad_, _Warrior to Dreadnought_, _Grand Fleet_, _Nelson to Vanguard_, and _Rebuilding the Royal Navy_) drives home: in the pre-WWI era almost everything is done with fudge factors and building off of what was done before, but a little different, and even into the 1950's there are lots of room for error. One story that has stuck with me is of a destroyer class in WW2 that performed particularly horribly because of an error on calculating the metacentric height. The proper procedure for calculating it was to have two different dudes each spend a week calculating it independently and hoping that their numbers matched. Apparently, in the rush of what had to be done, the RCNC cut some corners and only had one draftsman do it in this case, and he made an error and now the ships rolled horrifically. But even Bouguer and Euler- the people inventing metacentric height calculations- are working a century after the Vasa, so a master shipbuilder in that era just has his working experience and no real math to help him.

tored 4y ago
If you follow the excellent YouTube channel Drachinifel you will learn that many ships of that era (including WW2) had design flaws, like heavy rolling, flooding into compartments, breaking of the hull etc. This was the time before computer models and computer simulation.
driscoll42 4y ago
I... did not need five more books to read, but now I do.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

xorcist 4y ago

A precursor of "fail fast, fail often" perhaps?