16 ms·

macOS 13 Ventura review

122 points by BaldricksGhost 4y ago

dwrodri 4y ago
Absolutely blows my mind that they wouldn't have a keybind for swapping between "stages" in Stage Manager. What furthers the confusion is that they did put some keybinds for things like merging applications into a single stage, but just... didn't take it all the way. Are keybind-heavy users a dying breed? It blows my mind that Apple would wise up to returning SD Card / HDMI ports to the Macbook, only to follow that up with increasingly taking away my ability to navigate my computer with just keybinds. I'm preaching to the choir on HN, but I think just about every piece of software aimed at creative/technical professionals (Blender/Adobe CC/Maya/Autodesk/Vim/Ableton/etc) is packed to the brim with keybinds because it allows you to do things fast. Oh well, I guess I'll be sticking with my ^+▲, ⌘+TAB, Spotlight/Alfred, and all the binds I get from the Magnet app[1]. 1: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/magnet/id441258766?mt=12 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/magnet/id441258766?mt=12
kristo 4y ago
Insane to me that finder opens in like 10 different possible views depending on… what I have no idea
julienreszka 4y ago
Stage manager is great if you have the latest MacBook
Scharkenberg 4y ago
I tried Stage Manager and turned it off within 10 minutes. It does seem somewhat better than the iPad implementation, but that bar is so low that this feature at the current state deserves no praise whatsoever. The new System Settings app is kind of buggy, which makes me think that 13.1 is coming sooner (by the end of the year?) rather than later. Other than that, there isn't much I can personally say about Ventura. It's more or less what one would expect from mac OS as of late - a subtle continuation of Big Sur and Monterey. Aside from the hardware compatibility list, there is nothing disruptive about it, which I am sure many will like. For better or for worse, it seems like 80% of the software engineering effort at Apple goes towards iOS.
- vanilla_nut 4y ago
  The saving grace of the System Settings app is simple: System Preferences sucked too. Even as a macOS user for my entire adult life, looking at that tile layout seemed to hide categories from my mind. Does anyone know what functionality has been lost in the transition? I was hunting around for it after I upgraded myself, but it's so different it's hard to compare. Ars' mapping indicates things are mostly still there. But I also can't seem to reorganize my connection priority list for WiFi networks. I wonder if the PM in control of the WiFi network settings panel even knows that feature exists.
  - Toutouxc 4y ago
    I agree, before it was the main screen with the icons that sucked (but looked friendly!), now the sidebar is okay and workable and the detail screens suck.
  - wlesieutre 4y ago
    In the network vein, Network Locations are also gone
- ridiculous_fish 4y ago
  FWIW I tried Stage Manager in Ventura and was surprised by how much I like it. I prefer to keep background windows clickable, and Stage Manager gives me that for free, except they don't get "lost" as easily. The animations are slick too (try it with Exposé!). I'll likely keep it enabled. Settings has some issues but isn't as bad as I was led to believe from the pre-release hand-wringing. The only compatibility issue I've encountered is that `man --path` no longer works. Weird.
CobaltFire 4y ago
So on the topic of color space on iPads (that reference mode): I commented the other day that though all my recent Apple products have excellent color space they are all out of calibration. I decided to TRY calibrating my iPad Pro 11 (first gen) during Sidecar. The results were... not good. ~91% sRGB and ~71% DCI-P3. It's noticeably desaturated compared to running native. Likely some USB compression; I'm wondering if they got around that by implementing the "reference" link via Thunderbolt, or just created a specific pairing and are doing something akin to FRC in the compression. I'd be interested to know, but likely they aren't going to tell us.
togs 4y ago
Update was pretty painless. Everything else is the same.
- pantulis 4y ago
  That's why it was painless.
  - behnamoh 4y ago
    Or was it the other way around?
pram 4y ago
Anyone know if Wacom/Cintiq drivers are working on Ventura?
- eludwig 4y ago
  I can't say for the newest tablets, but I have an older Intuos 4 running on a Mac Studio and the Ventura installer completely killed the legacy Wacom driver during the install. Thankfully, I uninstalled and reinstalled and everything seems fine now. I realize that these old drivers won't work forever and that it's kind of a miracle that they still work! I assume that the code is intel running in rosetta.
- sirn 4y ago
  My Cintiq Pro 16 stopped working with 6.4.0 driver on Ventura (no pen/touch input). Wacom Center could detect the display, but it looks like the driver itself just crashes. Rebooting do fix it, but it hasn't been very stable. I haven't tried reinstalling the driver yet, but I would say avoid for now if Wacom driver is a requirement.
pcurve 4y ago
Reduction in installed sizes in something to celebrate. Makes you wonder how they cut it down from 20gb to 15 for laptop install
- dottedmag 4y ago
  Most likely by straightforward cruft removal. It's mind-boggling how many files macOS contains.
anonymouse008 4y ago
To everyone who worked on System Settings, you put in a ton of work, and you're all very talented to ship something in a new framework (SwiftUI) that has gone on to millions of devices. I only have one question: who was in charge of the thumbs up / thumbs down on this new design? Was it Craig Federighi? You all did amazing work with the tools offered - SwiftUI makes the side bar navigation and simple cell table views the easiest to iterate and create - and you all achieved that. Someone should have stepped up though and waited till next OS release for a change like this (with the new SwiftUI layouts, etc) - or potentially not touched it - or explain in depth why a side bar makes sense for settings, the most cognitively demanding part of an OS now with superfluous information on the side? That's critical real estate to lose, then doubly hurtful with visual clutter / something were expected to ignore.
- deafpolygon 4y ago
  They wanted to catch up and copy Microsoft...
- timw4mail 4y ago
  I don't see the point of the change. It looks too much like iOS.
  - akmarinov 4y ago
    Rumor is macOS is coming to iPads, so makes more sense when you think of it that way
    - timw4mail 4y ago
      So ruin macOS for the sake of inferior hardware.
      - russelg 4y ago
        Inferior hardware? The iPad Pro has the same CPU as a Macbook...
behnamoh 4y ago
> it does feel like the software side of the Mac is lacking its own unique direction and identity lately. Overwhelmingly, new features for macOS merely help it keep pace with what is happening on the iPhone and iPad. That feels doubly true in Ventura This. macOS is now a second class citizen in Apple’s ecosystem. If it weren’t, simple and basic features that users actually want would be implemented long ago, such as a window management so that we don’t need to install Tiles/Magnet/…
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
TwoNineA 4y ago
Had to flush com.apple.Spotlight.plist file to get Spotlight working properly. After upgrade, Spotlight couldn't find 3d party apps that were installed already. Also, stage manager is a UI/UX nightmare, I will stick to Rectangle app.
- deafpolygon 4y ago
  Which works similarly to Windows 11 snap...
- xwowsersx 4y ago
  Rectangle app?
  - ludwigvan 4y ago
    https://rectangleapp.com/ https://rectangleapp.com/
- xwowsersx 4y ago
  oh I see https://rectangleapp.com/ https://rectangleapp.com/
- wellthisisgreat 4y ago
  How is Rectangle better than BetterSnapTool?
  - TwoNineA 4y ago
    Never tried BetterSnapTool, from screenshots it looks very similar.
kossTKR 4y ago
Is there any legit reason Apple is hastening the drop of support for older computers when they can be upgraded just fine with the OpenCore Legacy Patcher? It seems wrong to me in an age of excessive e-waste that seemingly arbitrary thresholds is set that has zero hardware links. I generally really like Apple, and is planning on retiring my 2014 Macbook Pro for an M2, but it's still working absolutely great. But i could only upgrade to Monterey with the legacy patcher like many others, seemingly problem free. It's the same thing with older iPads, i wanted to use one as a "hub" for homekit, but you can't because it can't update ios beyond 9 (regular browsing + video + 99% of apps is also broken), so people just throw it in the dumpster with a great battery, a fine screen and a processor that could easily be used as a server, video player, browser etc. I know other companies are often worse but we really need legislation around this; something ala if the biggest players drop support for some hardware let the user upgrade anyway even if performance will be worse, otherwise release all drivers so that you can at least install linux or alternatively release some "trimmed down versions" of the OS for legacy systems that can still run basic functionality.
- kcplate 4y ago
  > I know other companies are often worse but we really need legislation around this The last thing we need is some crappy poorly written law that is filled with a bunch of unrelated hanger-on pork projects to appease politicians into voting for it.
- JohnBooty 4y ago
  It's frustrating because I think a lot of people stuck with their 2015 MBPs since it was the last one with a "good" keyboard and solid assortment of ports for quite a while.
- ChildOfChaos 4y ago
  Yeah, I am a little disappointed that this is the first upgrade that I cannot get with my late 2015 iMac. I'd use the legacy patcher perhaps, but I don't see much on this new version that I would want, so i'd rather keep things offical for now, to avoid any issues. Yes, I get that this machine is 7 years old, but I cannot tell from using it, everything is extremely fast, I upspecced it when I bought it and maxed out a lot of things, it has a decent i7 processor, 32gb of ram and 1tb ssd and the m395x maxed out graphics card, heck it still games well in Windows. I really see zero reason to upgrade, it runs better than my new work windows laptop except that Apple have decided for some reason I can't get the update.
mttjj 4y ago
>The good >Orange color scheme is fittingly Halloween-y for late October Lol what? Are we to the point now where OS updates are so mundane that a highlight of the release is that the primary color scheme is "holiday relevant" for at most two weeks out of the year? Not bashing Ventura - I haven't used it - I just feel like this is a weird thing to put in the "pro" column for a review of an operating system. Not that putting it in the "con" column would be any less weird...
- crazygringo 4y ago
  It's just a joke, just adding a bit of humor. ;) It's not a bullet point meant to be taken seriously as a "pro" of Ventura... let's just have some fun here!
bryanlarsen 4y ago
This upgrade is going to cost me a lot of money. They've dropped support for my beefy 2016 MBP. Soon enough the latest version of XCode is going to require Ventura and I won't be able to build my app. Meanwhile, Linus is only just starting the discussion to drop the 486 from the Linux kernel.
- tolger 4y ago
  No one is forcing you to upgrade. I still have a 2008 Mac running El Capitan and I can do everything I need to do on it.
  - kcplate 4y ago
    Literally just retired a 2018 MBP this year because the battery swelled up.
  - subarctic 4y ago
    I used to think that, but at some point I noticed that homebrew was compiling dependencies instead of downloading compiled binaries, and found out it was because my OS was not in the most recent 3 versions.
  - pohuing 4y ago
    Can you compile for IOS 15? I'm stuck on big sur and can't connect to my iPhone anymore
- kylec 4y ago
  Will you need the latest version of Xcode? Could you continue to use an older version of Xcode to develop your app?
  - muthuraj57 4y ago
    I think latest version of XCode is needed if latest iOS is being targeted.
    - 4y ago
dev_daftly 4y ago
Have they separated scroll direction for mouse and trackpad yet? I don't understand how a shared flag like that has not been fixed yet, does nobody at apple use a normal mouse?
- lastofthemojito 4y ago
  Doesn't look like it. But Mos still seems to work if that bothers you (as it does me). https://mos.caldis.me/ https://mos.caldis.me/
  - dev_daftly 4y ago
    I hate the fact that I have to install third party software to do something every other OS (i believe) has as the default. I've been using scroll reverser, but that looks nicer, will try it out. Thanks
- dunham 4y ago
  It doesn't look like it. There are separate controls on the mouse and trackpad screen, but they're tied to the same value. I would think that would be separate - the keyboard re-mappings are different for each keyboard that you plug in. I use a normal wheely mouse and am fine with "natural" scrolling, but I may just be weird in that respect. (I've had really bad luck with bluetooth mice, so my not so magic mice live in my closet.)
  - sofixa 4y ago
    > There are separate controls on the mouse and trackpad screen, but they're tied to the same value That's what killed the "Apple's UX is great and it just works" myth for me after i got my first work issued MBP. Not only is a basic feature lacking, there is stupidly confusing configuration for it in two places that makes you think it exists, but it doesn't. Apple's UI/UX/PM people make stupid decisions, same as any other company.
- Toutouxc 4y ago
  This isn’t about normal mouse or not, after all the Magic Mouse IS and scrolls like a normal mouse, just with a touch-surface instead of a wheel. It’s about the fact that in macOS it’s the content that scrolls, not the viewport. By moving your finger up on a touchpad you’re pushing the content up, and the wheel of a non-Apple mouse is a physical proxy of the content. You may not like the decision, but in my opinion it makes a lot of sense, and I set the mouse to work like this even in Linux.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
whywhywhywhy 4y ago
Kinda need the Siracusa take, to be honest.
orr721 4y ago
Anyone else noticed that the Preview app was tinkered with again? Now it lost the ability to open PostScript files. This feature worked from the very beginning of Mac OSX up till Monterrey. The command line PostScript tools are still present though. Also all Ruby gems with native extensions stopped working for me, even the pre-installed system ones.
- tolger 4y ago
  I am one of those people who still have a lot of PostScript files. I have many scientific papers from college in my collection. I know I should convert them to PDF, but it sucks that they quietly removed support for a file format that's been around for a long time.
- AndroidKitKat 4y ago
  Thank heavens someone else noticed that Preview lost its ability to open PostScript. I occasionally use Preview to render manpages as PDF so I can print them out and using the Ventura beta made me think it was just a bug. It's a shame that it is missing in the final release -- I even filed several Feedback reports with basically no response. I am not sure at all what utility there is in removing features from Preview. My current workaround is to use my 2013 Mac Pro that's stuck on Monterey to do so, but eventually that's going to kick the can...
  - nioj 4y ago
    I’m also still on Monterrey, but I just discovered that Skim supports viewing both PostScript and eps files (I assume that functionality also works on Ventura), so that could also be a solution if you don’t want to switch between machines for viewing ps files.
  - orr721 4y ago
    Removing features like this is just plain stupid. Preview was one of the most valuable apps for viewing files preinstalled on every Mac. While I can understand that raw PostScript files are rarely seen nowadays, Encapsulated-PostScript is still used, i.e. for graphs in scientific software and publications. To add an insult to injury, the Monterey era trick still works. Change the file extension from .eps or .ps to .ai (Adobe Illustrator) and QuickLook will happily display the file. It will even offer you to "Open in Preview" which then fails.
za3faran 4y ago
Does anyone else dislike the "phonification" of desktop UIs? Desktop and phone use are very different, with very different screen real estate.
- tolger 4y ago
  Yes, I hate the trend to apply mobile paradigms to a desktop OS. I will stay on Monterey for as long as I can.
- aamoscodes 4y ago
  I expected it with web apps and can almost excuse it there, but switching native desktop UIs to this format seems weird.
- luuuzeta 4y ago
  I do too. There are two different mediums to create and consume content (using this word loosely), and turning one into the other is ridiculous.
- sofixa 4y ago
  Everyone dislikes it. This is among the reasons why Windows 8 was such a massive failure, it tried to force a UI that kind of makes sense on a small touch screen on PCs where it didn't make any sense.
  - lupire 4y ago
    Worse, Windows 8 failed after the failure of the Windows phone, which it copied.
- Tagbert 4y ago
  Not particularly. The integration of iOS details into Mac OS is pretty limited. There are also Mac OS features leaking into iPad OS (windows with sidebar navigation panel).
arran-nz 4y ago
Still waiting for Display Port MST support over USB-C to enable monitor daisy chaining.
- sofixa 4y ago
  That's an extremely stupid limitation. Every other OS does support this, and if Apple are so afraid of degraded quality due to lack of bandwidth, they can just put a warning when you do that.
- tomjen3 4y ago
  You are never going to get it for the current machines is my guess. Technically it should work with 2HD screens rather than 1 UHD screen, but I don't know.
  - sofixa 4y ago
    It works just fine on any other OS for 2xHD screens, even Windows on MacBooks, so it's a software limitations.
whatsthatabout 4y ago
I'll just update to 12.6.1 for now and wait... Seems like there's nothing new exciting enough for me to upgrade right away - I want stability on my machine.
luuuzeta 4y ago
>But unlike minimizing or maximizing an app from the Dock, each "stage" can contain multiple app windows from multiple apps; switch from one stage to another, and every window on that stage will pop back up on your screen in exactly the arrangement you were using before. How does this new feature perform with external monitors? One of my gripes with macOS is how awful it's at managing windows. For example except for Slack, Outlook, Zoom, and a Brave window for listening to music on YouTube that stay in the MB's display, all the other apps go into my external monitor. However every time the computer goes to sleep, I must move a bunch of windows back to the external monitor. I was using Stay [1] and it was doing a decent job, however I couldn't justify paying $15 after the trial ended. [1]: https://cordlessdog.com/stay/ https://cordlessdog.com/stay/
- mbreese 4y ago
  I get the friction, but if it is really causing you all that grief, why not pay for the $15 tool that helps? Yeah, I get the argument that you shouldn’t have to spend more money to deal with an annoyance and the OS should be better at this… but if you have a solution, is there still a problem? (Or it you don't want to spend $15, was it really a major problem?) I spent money on a tool that helps manage my menu bar for a similar reason, and it has made it much nicer to use my Mac.
- jahewson 4y ago
  I just spent $15 on my lunch.
- PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
  workspaces as on linux? seems incredibly similar conceptually
haskaalo 4y ago
I'm French Canadian and because of this I have two keyboard languages. French Canadian and English (Canada). Before, when I'd press FN to change my keyboard language, I used to see "French Canada" and "English Canada". Now I just see "Canada" and "Canada - CSA". This is a weird change.
- PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
  Apple: Je me souviens User: not really
- MaxikCZ 4y ago
  Windows 10 screwed this up aswell. Up until then I had Czech and English keyboards I could switch between with Alt+Shift. Then win 10 installation came, and suddenly I had (something similar to) Czech, "English-CZ" and English. Ofcourse Alt+Shift now changed between Czech and English-CZ, and there was supposed to be new shortcut to change between English and the rest. Of course, I cant just delete the languages I dont want to, that would be too easy (and all google guides "helpfully" said: just delete the extra language, bro). So after some refistry magic I was able to bend the system agaist its will to work as it always did, but of course it changed back several times since then on its own. How does one manage to fuck up something as simple as "remember those two languages I use and switch between them when I press this" is beyond me. At this point im more inclined to believe in purposeful malice than such brutal incomptence
pwinnski 4y ago
I hate System Preferences, have hated System Preferences for years and years. I cannot seem to get used to where things are, no matter how often I use it. The order doesn't make sense to me, the grouping doesn't make sense to me, and the icons aren't visually distinct enough for me. I might be the only one, but it's hard to imagine any overhaul of System Preference not resulting in an improvement. I'm sure it's just me. I'm the only one struggling to understand why "Desktop & Screen Saver" is so far from "Displays" and whether what I'm looking for is in one of those or maybe "Dock & Menu Bar." It could be that the new System Settings won't resolve my lack of memory when it comes to this one particular area of MacOS, but I can't imagine it getting worse. I use search for most things now as it is.
- ninkendo 4y ago
  > I'm the only one struggling to understand why "Desktop & Screen Saver" is so far from "Displays" and whether what I'm looking for is in one of those or maybe "Dock & Menu Bar." You’ll love finding out that in System Settings, the Screensaver section doesn’t let you enable/disable the Screensaver. Or adjust how long until it activates. For that you gotta go to “Lock Screen”, yay. Here’s hoping they improve it over time, I guess.
- gsinclair 4y ago
  The thought of using System Preferences (or Settings — I couldn’t tell you the difference, if there is one) to access anything, when Alfred or Spotlight can access it instead, is anathema to me.
- lapcat 4y ago
  System Preferences has an "Organize Alphabetically" option. System Settings does not. System Preferences can hide individual preference panes from the list. System Settings can't. System Preferences search field is focused on launch. System Settings is not. System Preferences is fully keyboard navigable. System Settings is not. System Preferences uses tabs where System Settings in many cases uses a modal window hidden behind a button. The list goes on and on...
- knubie 4y ago
  System Preferences is grouped by software-related settings on the top and hardware-related settings on the bottom. You may notice a slight color difference between the two sections. (I only learned this recently).

Absolutely blows my mind that they wouldn't have a keybind for swapping between "stages" in Stage Manager. What furthers the confusion is that they did put some keybinds for things like merging applications into a single stage, but just... didn't take it all the way. Are keybind-heavy users a dying breed? It blows my mind that Apple would wise up to returning SD Card / HDMI ports to the Macbook, only to follow that up with increasingly taking away my ability to navigate my computer with just keybinds. I'm preaching to the choir on HN, but I think just about every piece of software aimed at creative/technical professionals (Blender/Adobe CC/Maya/Autodesk/Vim/Ableton/etc) is packed to the brim with keybinds because it allows you to do things fast. Oh well, I guess I'll be sticking with my ^+▲, ⌘+TAB, Spotlight/Alfred, and all the binds I get from the Magnet app[1]. 1: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/magnet/id441258766?mt=12 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/magnet/id441258766?mt=12

kristo 4y ago

Insane to me that finder opens in like 10 different possible views depending on… what I have no idea

julienreszka 4y ago

Stage manager is great if you have the latest MacBook

Scharkenberg 4y ago

I tried Stage Manager and turned it off within 10 minutes. It does seem somewhat better than the iPad implementation, but that bar is so low that this feature at the current state deserves no praise whatsoever. The new System Settings app is kind of buggy, which makes me think that 13.1 is coming sooner (by the end of the year?) rather than later. Other than that, there isn't much I can personally say about Ventura. It's more or less what one would expect from mac OS as of late - a subtle continuation of Big Sur and Monterey. Aside from the hardware compatibility list, there is nothing disruptive about it, which I am sure many will like. For better or for worse, it seems like 80% of the software engineering effort at Apple goes towards iOS.

vanilla_nut 4y ago
The saving grace of the System Settings app is simple: System Preferences sucked too. Even as a macOS user for my entire adult life, looking at that tile layout seemed to hide categories from my mind. Does anyone know what functionality has been lost in the transition? I was hunting around for it after I upgraded myself, but it's so different it's hard to compare. Ars' mapping indicates things are mostly still there. But I also can't seem to reorganize my connection priority list for WiFi networks. I wonder if the PM in control of the WiFi network settings panel even knows that feature exists.
- Toutouxc 4y ago
  I agree, before it was the main screen with the icons that sucked (but looked friendly!), now the sidebar is okay and workable and the detail screens suck.
- wlesieutre 4y ago
  In the network vein, Network Locations are also gone
ridiculous_fish 4y ago
FWIW I tried Stage Manager in Ventura and was surprised by how much I like it. I prefer to keep background windows clickable, and Stage Manager gives me that for free, except they don't get "lost" as easily. The animations are slick too (try it with Exposé!). I'll likely keep it enabled. Settings has some issues but isn't as bad as I was led to believe from the pre-release hand-wringing. The only compatibility issue I've encountered is that `man --path` no longer works. Weird.

CobaltFire 4y ago

So on the topic of color space on iPads (that reference mode): I commented the other day that though all my recent Apple products have excellent color space they are all out of calibration. I decided to TRY calibrating my iPad Pro 11 (first gen) during Sidecar. The results were... not good. ~91% sRGB and ~71% DCI-P3. It's noticeably desaturated compared to running native. Likely some USB compression; I'm wondering if they got around that by implementing the "reference" link via Thunderbolt, or just created a specific pairing and are doing something akin to FRC in the compression. I'd be interested to know, but likely they aren't going to tell us.

togs 4y ago

Update was pretty painless. Everything else is the same.

pantulis 4y ago
That's why it was painless.
- behnamoh 4y ago
  Or was it the other way around?

pram 4y ago

Anyone know if Wacom/Cintiq drivers are working on Ventura?

eludwig 4y ago
I can't say for the newest tablets, but I have an older Intuos 4 running on a Mac Studio and the Ventura installer completely killed the legacy Wacom driver during the install. Thankfully, I uninstalled and reinstalled and everything seems fine now. I realize that these old drivers won't work forever and that it's kind of a miracle that they still work! I assume that the code is intel running in rosetta.
sirn 4y ago
My Cintiq Pro 16 stopped working with 6.4.0 driver on Ventura (no pen/touch input). Wacom Center could detect the display, but it looks like the driver itself just crashes. Rebooting do fix it, but it hasn't been very stable. I haven't tried reinstalling the driver yet, but I would say avoid for now if Wacom driver is a requirement.

pcurve 4y ago

Reduction in installed sizes in something to celebrate. Makes you wonder how they cut it down from 20gb to 15 for laptop install

dottedmag 4y ago
Most likely by straightforward cruft removal. It's mind-boggling how many files macOS contains.

anonymouse008 4y ago

To everyone who worked on System Settings, you put in a ton of work, and you're all very talented to ship something in a new framework (SwiftUI) that has gone on to millions of devices. I only have one question: who was in charge of the thumbs up / thumbs down on this new design? Was it Craig Federighi? You all did amazing work with the tools offered - SwiftUI makes the side bar navigation and simple cell table views the easiest to iterate and create - and you all achieved that. Someone should have stepped up though and waited till next OS release for a change like this (with the new SwiftUI layouts, etc) - or potentially not touched it - or explain in depth why a side bar makes sense for settings, the most cognitively demanding part of an OS now with superfluous information on the side? That's critical real estate to lose, then doubly hurtful with visual clutter / something were expected to ignore.

deafpolygon 4y ago
They wanted to catch up and copy Microsoft...
timw4mail 4y ago
I don't see the point of the change. It looks too much like iOS.
- akmarinov 4y ago
  Rumor is macOS is coming to iPads, so makes more sense when you think of it that way
  - timw4mail 4y ago
    So ruin macOS for the sake of inferior hardware.
    - russelg 4y ago
      Inferior hardware? The iPad Pro has the same CPU as a Macbook...

behnamoh 4y ago

> it does feel like the software side of the Mac is lacking its own unique direction and identity lately. Overwhelmingly, new features for macOS merely help it keep pace with what is happening on the iPhone and iPad. That feels doubly true in Ventura This. macOS is now a second class citizen in Apple’s ecosystem. If it weren’t, simple and basic features that users actually want would be implemented long ago, such as a window management so that we don’t need to install Tiles/Magnet/…

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

TwoNineA 4y ago

Had to flush com.apple.Spotlight.plist file to get Spotlight working properly. After upgrade, Spotlight couldn't find 3d party apps that were installed already. Also, stage manager is a UI/UX nightmare, I will stick to Rectangle app.

deafpolygon 4y ago
Which works similarly to Windows 11 snap...
xwowsersx 4y ago
Rectangle app?
- ludwigvan 4y ago
  https://rectangleapp.com/ https://rectangleapp.com/
xwowsersx 4y ago
oh I see https://rectangleapp.com/ https://rectangleapp.com/
wellthisisgreat 4y ago
How is Rectangle better than BetterSnapTool?
- TwoNineA 4y ago
  Never tried BetterSnapTool, from screenshots it looks very similar.

kossTKR 4y ago

Is there any legit reason Apple is hastening the drop of support for older computers when they can be upgraded just fine with the OpenCore Legacy Patcher? It seems wrong to me in an age of excessive e-waste that seemingly arbitrary thresholds is set that has zero hardware links. I generally really like Apple, and is planning on retiring my 2014 Macbook Pro for an M2, but it's still working absolutely great. But i could only upgrade to Monterey with the legacy patcher like many others, seemingly problem free. It's the same thing with older iPads, i wanted to use one as a "hub" for homekit, but you can't because it can't update ios beyond 9 (regular browsing + video + 99% of apps is also broken), so people just throw it in the dumpster with a great battery, a fine screen and a processor that could easily be used as a server, video player, browser etc. I know other companies are often worse but we really need legislation around this; something ala if the biggest players drop support for some hardware let the user upgrade anyway even if performance will be worse, otherwise release all drivers so that you can at least install linux or alternatively release some "trimmed down versions" of the OS for legacy systems that can still run basic functionality.

kcplate 4y ago
> I know other companies are often worse but we really need legislation around this The last thing we need is some crappy poorly written law that is filled with a bunch of unrelated hanger-on pork projects to appease politicians into voting for it.
JohnBooty 4y ago
It's frustrating because I think a lot of people stuck with their 2015 MBPs since it was the last one with a "good" keyboard and solid assortment of ports for quite a while.
ChildOfChaos 4y ago
Yeah, I am a little disappointed that this is the first upgrade that I cannot get with my late 2015 iMac. I'd use the legacy patcher perhaps, but I don't see much on this new version that I would want, so i'd rather keep things offical for now, to avoid any issues. Yes, I get that this machine is 7 years old, but I cannot tell from using it, everything is extremely fast, I upspecced it when I bought it and maxed out a lot of things, it has a decent i7 processor, 32gb of ram and 1tb ssd and the m395x maxed out graphics card, heck it still games well in Windows. I really see zero reason to upgrade, it runs better than my new work windows laptop except that Apple have decided for some reason I can't get the update.

mttjj 4y ago

>The good >Orange color scheme is fittingly Halloween-y for late October Lol what? Are we to the point now where OS updates are so mundane that a highlight of the release is that the primary color scheme is "holiday relevant" for at most two weeks out of the year? Not bashing Ventura - I haven't used it - I just feel like this is a weird thing to put in the "pro" column for a review of an operating system. Not that putting it in the "con" column would be any less weird...

crazygringo 4y ago
It's just a joke, just adding a bit of humor. ;) It's not a bullet point meant to be taken seriously as a "pro" of Ventura... let's just have some fun here!

bryanlarsen 4y ago

This upgrade is going to cost me a lot of money. They've dropped support for my beefy 2016 MBP. Soon enough the latest version of XCode is going to require Ventura and I won't be able to build my app. Meanwhile, Linus is only just starting the discussion to drop the 486 from the Linux kernel.

tolger 4y ago
No one is forcing you to upgrade. I still have a 2008 Mac running El Capitan and I can do everything I need to do on it.
- kcplate 4y ago
  Literally just retired a 2018 MBP this year because the battery swelled up.
- subarctic 4y ago
  I used to think that, but at some point I noticed that homebrew was compiling dependencies instead of downloading compiled binaries, and found out it was because my OS was not in the most recent 3 versions.
- pohuing 4y ago
  Can you compile for IOS 15? I'm stuck on big sur and can't connect to my iPhone anymore
kylec 4y ago
Will you need the latest version of Xcode? Could you continue to use an older version of Xcode to develop your app?
- muthuraj57 4y ago
  I think latest version of XCode is needed if latest iOS is being targeted.
  - 4y ago

dev_daftly 4y ago

Have they separated scroll direction for mouse and trackpad yet? I don't understand how a shared flag like that has not been fixed yet, does nobody at apple use a normal mouse?

lastofthemojito 4y ago
Doesn't look like it. But Mos still seems to work if that bothers you (as it does me). https://mos.caldis.me/ https://mos.caldis.me/
- dev_daftly 4y ago
  I hate the fact that I have to install third party software to do something every other OS (i believe) has as the default. I've been using scroll reverser, but that looks nicer, will try it out. Thanks
dunham 4y ago
It doesn't look like it. There are separate controls on the mouse and trackpad screen, but they're tied to the same value. I would think that would be separate - the keyboard re-mappings are different for each keyboard that you plug in. I use a normal wheely mouse and am fine with "natural" scrolling, but I may just be weird in that respect. (I've had really bad luck with bluetooth mice, so my not so magic mice live in my closet.)
- sofixa 4y ago
  > There are separate controls on the mouse and trackpad screen, but they're tied to the same value That's what killed the "Apple's UX is great and it just works" myth for me after i got my first work issued MBP. Not only is a basic feature lacking, there is stupidly confusing configuration for it in two places that makes you think it exists, but it doesn't. Apple's UI/UX/PM people make stupid decisions, same as any other company.
Toutouxc 4y ago
This isn’t about normal mouse or not, after all the Magic Mouse IS and scrolls like a normal mouse, just with a touch-surface instead of a wheel. It’s about the fact that in macOS it’s the content that scrolls, not the viewport. By moving your finger up on a touchpad you’re pushing the content up, and the wheel of a non-Apple mouse is a physical proxy of the content. You may not like the decision, but in my opinion it makes a lot of sense, and I set the mouse to work like this even in Linux.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

whywhywhywhy 4y ago

Kinda need the Siracusa take, to be honest.

orr721 4y ago

Anyone else noticed that the Preview app was tinkered with again? Now it lost the ability to open PostScript files. This feature worked from the very beginning of Mac OSX up till Monterrey. The command line PostScript tools are still present though. Also all Ruby gems with native extensions stopped working for me, even the pre-installed system ones.

tolger 4y ago
I am one of those people who still have a lot of PostScript files. I have many scientific papers from college in my collection. I know I should convert them to PDF, but it sucks that they quietly removed support for a file format that's been around for a long time.
AndroidKitKat 4y ago
Thank heavens someone else noticed that Preview lost its ability to open PostScript. I occasionally use Preview to render manpages as PDF so I can print them out and using the Ventura beta made me think it was just a bug. It's a shame that it is missing in the final release -- I even filed several Feedback reports with basically no response. I am not sure at all what utility there is in removing features from Preview. My current workaround is to use my 2013 Mac Pro that's stuck on Monterey to do so, but eventually that's going to kick the can...
- nioj 4y ago
  I’m also still on Monterrey, but I just discovered that Skim supports viewing both PostScript and eps files (I assume that functionality also works on Ventura), so that could also be a solution if you don’t want to switch between machines for viewing ps files.
- orr721 4y ago
  Removing features like this is just plain stupid. Preview was one of the most valuable apps for viewing files preinstalled on every Mac. While I can understand that raw PostScript files are rarely seen nowadays, Encapsulated-PostScript is still used, i.e. for graphs in scientific software and publications. To add an insult to injury, the Monterey era trick still works. Change the file extension from .eps or .ps to .ai (Adobe Illustrator) and QuickLook will happily display the file. It will even offer you to "Open in Preview" which then fails.

za3faran 4y ago

Does anyone else dislike the "phonification" of desktop UIs? Desktop and phone use are very different, with very different screen real estate.

tolger 4y ago
Yes, I hate the trend to apply mobile paradigms to a desktop OS. I will stay on Monterey for as long as I can.
aamoscodes 4y ago
I expected it with web apps and can almost excuse it there, but switching native desktop UIs to this format seems weird.
luuuzeta 4y ago
I do too. There are two different mediums to create and consume content (using this word loosely), and turning one into the other is ridiculous.
sofixa 4y ago
Everyone dislikes it. This is among the reasons why Windows 8 was such a massive failure, it tried to force a UI that kind of makes sense on a small touch screen on PCs where it didn't make any sense.
- lupire 4y ago
  Worse, Windows 8 failed after the failure of the Windows phone, which it copied.
Tagbert 4y ago
Not particularly. The integration of iOS details into Mac OS is pretty limited. There are also Mac OS features leaking into iPad OS (windows with sidebar navigation panel).

arran-nz 4y ago

Still waiting for Display Port MST support over USB-C to enable monitor daisy chaining.

sofixa 4y ago
That's an extremely stupid limitation. Every other OS does support this, and if Apple are so afraid of degraded quality due to lack of bandwidth, they can just put a warning when you do that.
tomjen3 4y ago
You are never going to get it for the current machines is my guess. Technically it should work with 2HD screens rather than 1 UHD screen, but I don't know.
- sofixa 4y ago
  It works just fine on any other OS for 2xHD screens, even Windows on MacBooks, so it's a software limitations.

whatsthatabout 4y ago

I'll just update to 12.6.1 for now and wait... Seems like there's nothing new exciting enough for me to upgrade right away - I want stability on my machine.

luuuzeta 4y ago

>But unlike minimizing or maximizing an app from the Dock, each "stage" can contain multiple app windows from multiple apps; switch from one stage to another, and every window on that stage will pop back up on your screen in exactly the arrangement you were using before. How does this new feature perform with external monitors? One of my gripes with macOS is how awful it's at managing windows. For example except for Slack, Outlook, Zoom, and a Brave window for listening to music on YouTube that stay in the MB's display, all the other apps go into my external monitor. However every time the computer goes to sleep, I must move a bunch of windows back to the external monitor. I was using Stay [1] and it was doing a decent job, however I couldn't justify paying $15 after the trial ended. [1]: https://cordlessdog.com/stay/ https://cordlessdog.com/stay/

mbreese 4y ago
I get the friction, but if it is really causing you all that grief, why not pay for the $15 tool that helps? Yeah, I get the argument that you shouldn’t have to spend more money to deal with an annoyance and the OS should be better at this… but if you have a solution, is there still a problem? (Or it you don't want to spend $15, was it really a major problem?) I spent money on a tool that helps manage my menu bar for a similar reason, and it has made it much nicer to use my Mac.
jahewson 4y ago
I just spent $15 on my lunch.
PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
workspaces as on linux? seems incredibly similar conceptually

haskaalo 4y ago

I'm French Canadian and because of this I have two keyboard languages. French Canadian and English (Canada). Before, when I'd press FN to change my keyboard language, I used to see "French Canada" and "English Canada". Now I just see "Canada" and "Canada - CSA". This is a weird change.

PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
Apple: Je me souviens User: not really
MaxikCZ 4y ago
Windows 10 screwed this up aswell. Up until then I had Czech and English keyboards I could switch between with Alt+Shift. Then win 10 installation came, and suddenly I had (something similar to) Czech, "English-CZ" and English. Ofcourse Alt+Shift now changed between Czech and English-CZ, and there was supposed to be new shortcut to change between English and the rest. Of course, I cant just delete the languages I dont want to, that would be too easy (and all google guides "helpfully" said: just delete the extra language, bro). So after some refistry magic I was able to bend the system agaist its will to work as it always did, but of course it changed back several times since then on its own. How does one manage to fuck up something as simple as "remember those two languages I use and switch between them when I press this" is beyond me. At this point im more inclined to believe in purposeful malice than such brutal incomptence

pwinnski 4y ago

I hate System Preferences, have hated System Preferences for years and years. I cannot seem to get used to where things are, no matter how often I use it. The order doesn't make sense to me, the grouping doesn't make sense to me, and the icons aren't visually distinct enough for me. I might be the only one, but it's hard to imagine any overhaul of System Preference not resulting in an improvement. I'm sure it's just me. I'm the only one struggling to understand why "Desktop & Screen Saver" is so far from "Displays" and whether what I'm looking for is in one of those or maybe "Dock & Menu Bar." It could be that the new System Settings won't resolve my lack of memory when it comes to this one particular area of MacOS, but I can't imagine it getting worse. I use search for most things now as it is.

ninkendo 4y ago
> I'm the only one struggling to understand why "Desktop & Screen Saver" is so far from "Displays" and whether what I'm looking for is in one of those or maybe "Dock & Menu Bar." You’ll love finding out that in System Settings, the Screensaver section doesn’t let you enable/disable the Screensaver. Or adjust how long until it activates. For that you gotta go to “Lock Screen”, yay. Here’s hoping they improve it over time, I guess.
gsinclair 4y ago
The thought of using System Preferences (or Settings — I couldn’t tell you the difference, if there is one) to access anything, when Alfred or Spotlight can access it instead, is anathema to me.
lapcat 4y ago
System Preferences has an "Organize Alphabetically" option. System Settings does not. System Preferences can hide individual preference panes from the list. System Settings can't. System Preferences search field is focused on launch. System Settings is not. System Preferences is fully keyboard navigable. System Settings is not. System Preferences uses tabs where System Settings in many cases uses a modal window hidden behind a button. The list goes on and on...
knubie 4y ago
System Preferences is grouped by software-related settings on the top and hardware-related settings on the bottom. You may notice a slight color difference between the two sections. (I only learned this recently).