3 ms·

Arguing about genres is the dumbest past time but... none of those are roguelikes as per the op and traditionally. I do so wish we had landed on a different ge

Arguing about genres is the dumbest past time but... none of those are roguelikes as per the op and traditionally. I do so wish we had landed on a different genre name for games that share these meta characteristics.

socialismisok 4y ago
We did land on a genre name for them, it just happened to be "roguelike". Now, there's a historical definition of what a roguelike is and the current definition and the are related, but not the same. Language evolves, and often the root etymology of a word becomes not quite accurate. One can stand on the shore and tell the tide it is wrong for coming in, but that's not going to stop it. You can tell people to not evolve their language, but it'll still evolve.
- mcv 4y ago
  So you're saying that there's two different genres of games that happen to share the same name? A bit like "hard core" music, I guess. Except "hard core" has a meaning outside those genres, whereas "roguelike" explicitly refers to the first game of one of those genres, and I don't think the other genre ever had a game by that name that defined it. So it's basically just trading on the name of another genre.
- nhinck2 4y ago
  It's not that I don't think roguelike should be used except in strictest interpretation. It's that the current "genre" isn't a genre, it doesn't describe how you play the game, it doesn't describe what you do.
  - bowl_of_milk 4y ago
    How does it not describe what you do? Every Roguelike has a specific goal/win condition that a player is trying to reach with permadeath and procedural elements. Even then, most video-game genres are even LESS descriptive than "Roguelike". If a game is a "shooter", "simulation", "action", or "roleplaying" game, it's quite hard to tell what those things really mean. It turns out that "Roguelike" has actually become one of the most descriptive terms when it comes to game mechanics in recent years.
    - dolni 4y ago
      > How does it not describe what you do? Every Roguelike has a specific goal/win condition that a player is trying to reach "Goal/win condition" describes what GAMES are. Games have win conditions. That is what makes them games. Darkest Dungeon is tagged on Steam as a "roguelike" (and generally discussed as such from what I have seen). It doesn't feature permadeath. Your entire party can wipe in a dungeon and you go back to town.
      - socialismisok 4y ago
        Nope. Games do not necessarily have win conditions. Games have input and interactive systems. Or maybe not even that. There is no win condition in Tetris, and arguably there's little to no input into Progress Quest.
        dolni 4y ago
        So game doesn't have a definition either? > There is no win condition in Tetris Uh... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_O3Oaz2bos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_O3Oaz2bos. Also, I am not sure how you would have a tournament for a game with no win condition. > arguably there's little to no input into Progress Quest. I don't think most people would categorize Progress Quest as a game.
        socialismisok 4y ago
        Yes, one Tetris implementation ends. Most are play till you lose. But there are whole genres of games that you can't win. Minecraft creative mode, the Sims, most MMOs, Cities Skylines, etc etc etc. And Wikipedia considers progress quest a game, I consider it a game, and the author considers it a game. It might be fairly called a zero player game, but I think it's reasonable to apply the label game.
        dolni 4y ago
        > But there are whole genres of games that you can't win. Minecraft creative mode, the Sims, most MMOs, Cities Skylines, etc etc etc. These are all games that you set your own goals and achieve them. When the player runs out of goals for themselves, they stop playing. Sounds like a win condition to me. Just set by a different person. > And Wikipedia considers progress quest a game, I consider it a game, and the author considers it a game. It might be fairly called a zero player game, but I think it's reasonable to apply the label game. I could find a whole bunch of people to say the earth is flat. So what? I don't consider it a game. What makes the author any more right about that than me?
  - socialismisok 4y ago
    Game genres are weird, like there are "horror" games and "first person shooters" and "visual novels". The genres either describe the experience, what the player is doing, or even the medium the game uses. It's such a random smattering of taxonomic ideas.
    - anthk 4y ago
      Horror games have a defined sense. On FPS', Deus Ex it's an hybrid FPS with RPG and stealth mechanics. No one would call DX an RPG. No amount of calling "roguelikes" to "roguelites" will make them "roguelikes". Ever.
      - socialismisok 4y ago
        You seem really angry about this... Language and culture change over time, it's unavoidable. You can either roll with it or become increasingly out of touch. It's fine for you to hold your opinion, it's just that the rest of us are going to move on with our lives.

socialismisok 4y ago

We did land on a genre name for them, it just happened to be "roguelike". Now, there's a historical definition of what a roguelike is and the current definition and the are related, but not the same. Language evolves, and often the root etymology of a word becomes not quite accurate. One can stand on the shore and tell the tide it is wrong for coming in, but that's not going to stop it. You can tell people to not evolve their language, but it'll still evolve.

mcv 4y ago
So you're saying that there's two different genres of games that happen to share the same name? A bit like "hard core" music, I guess. Except "hard core" has a meaning outside those genres, whereas "roguelike" explicitly refers to the first game of one of those genres, and I don't think the other genre ever had a game by that name that defined it. So it's basically just trading on the name of another genre.
nhinck2 4y ago
It's not that I don't think roguelike should be used except in strictest interpretation. It's that the current "genre" isn't a genre, it doesn't describe how you play the game, it doesn't describe what you do.
- bowl_of_milk 4y ago
  How does it not describe what you do? Every Roguelike has a specific goal/win condition that a player is trying to reach with permadeath and procedural elements. Even then, most video-game genres are even LESS descriptive than "Roguelike". If a game is a "shooter", "simulation", "action", or "roleplaying" game, it's quite hard to tell what those things really mean. It turns out that "Roguelike" has actually become one of the most descriptive terms when it comes to game mechanics in recent years.
  - dolni 4y ago
    > How does it not describe what you do? Every Roguelike has a specific goal/win condition that a player is trying to reach "Goal/win condition" describes what GAMES are. Games have win conditions. That is what makes them games. Darkest Dungeon is tagged on Steam as a "roguelike" (and generally discussed as such from what I have seen). It doesn't feature permadeath. Your entire party can wipe in a dungeon and you go back to town.
    - socialismisok 4y ago
      Nope. Games do not necessarily have win conditions. Games have input and interactive systems. Or maybe not even that. There is no win condition in Tetris, and arguably there's little to no input into Progress Quest.
      - dolni 4y ago
        So game doesn't have a definition either? > There is no win condition in Tetris Uh... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_O3Oaz2bos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_O3Oaz2bos. Also, I am not sure how you would have a tournament for a game with no win condition. > arguably there's little to no input into Progress Quest. I don't think most people would categorize Progress Quest as a game.
        socialismisok 4y ago
        Yes, one Tetris implementation ends. Most are play till you lose. But there are whole genres of games that you can't win. Minecraft creative mode, the Sims, most MMOs, Cities Skylines, etc etc etc. And Wikipedia considers progress quest a game, I consider it a game, and the author considers it a game. It might be fairly called a zero player game, but I think it's reasonable to apply the label game.
        dolni 4y ago
        > But there are whole genres of games that you can't win. Minecraft creative mode, the Sims, most MMOs, Cities Skylines, etc etc etc. These are all games that you set your own goals and achieve them. When the player runs out of goals for themselves, they stop playing. Sounds like a win condition to me. Just set by a different person. > And Wikipedia considers progress quest a game, I consider it a game, and the author considers it a game. It might be fairly called a zero player game, but I think it's reasonable to apply the label game. I could find a whole bunch of people to say the earth is flat. So what? I don't consider it a game. What makes the author any more right about that than me?
- socialismisok 4y ago
  Game genres are weird, like there are "horror" games and "first person shooters" and "visual novels". The genres either describe the experience, what the player is doing, or even the medium the game uses. It's such a random smattering of taxonomic ideas.
  - anthk 4y ago
    Horror games have a defined sense. On FPS', Deus Ex it's an hybrid FPS with RPG and stealth mechanics. No one would call DX an RPG. No amount of calling "roguelikes" to "roguelites" will make them "roguelikes". Ever.
    - socialismisok 4y ago
      You seem really angry about this... Language and culture change over time, it's unavoidable. You can either roll with it or become increasingly out of touch. It's fine for you to hold your opinion, it's just that the rest of us are going to move on with our lives.