11 ms·

New Psychedelic Entactogens

53 points by beefman 4y ago

robertmp 4y ago
I am not a professional but as I understand APBs (and MDMA) have the same issue as Fen-Phen in that they are cardiotoxic and can cause heart valve issues due to high 5HT2b receptor affinity, which might be mitigated by combination with a 5HT2b antagonist such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS-127445 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS-127445
- csdvrx 4y ago
  Super interesting comment, but it was marked "dead", so I vouched for you. But let's not suggest taking research chemicals for maybe mitigating a known negative side effect for the chemical family of compounds, as it could do good... but it could also bring another negative side effects on top of this one, or a worse one!
  - quesomaster9000 4y ago
    Is the verdict still out on magnesium supplements? As much as Theranos has been discredited, there is still opportunity to perform near real-time serum measurements in novel ways which could have a huge impact on the safety of pharmaceutical consumption (even for recreational uses) in the forthcoming 20 years. Although the current focus is diabetes, the possibilities are limitless.
    - 55555 4y ago
      What do you mean IRT magnesium supplements?
  - robertmp 4y ago
    Yeah you are right. All this stuff is bad news, best to stay away imo
    - csdvrx 4y ago
      I don't know if you reply is sarcasm or not. I was just trying to warn people that reality is often more complex than simple plans. There have been other interesting comments, just as interesting as your original one, offering more information as to why it's not as clear cut as some people are pretending it to be.
      - robertmp 4y ago
motohagiography 4y ago
Interesting to isolate them and analogs and even synthesizing psylocibin, but what was wrong with just taking shrooms? Even if you can synthesize them, it doesn't mean these fungi are not here to take care of us and we should respect them. -- as taken from a recent argument with a psychedelics enthusiast. Take it as you will.
- robertmp 4y ago
  Interesting side note, you can feed psilocybin mushrooms synthetic tryptamines not found in nature and they will process them into 4-HO derivatives.
  - LanternLight83 4y ago
    That's really neat! Where'd you hear about that?
  - feet 4y ago
    Ooh I remember reading a bit about this years back. Not much research has been done into it though, do you know of any recent work? I'd love to read about it
- droopyEyelids 4y ago
  not patentable
- DontchaKnowit 4y ago
  As with all designer drugs - shrouds = controlled - novel analog = unregulated
- GoldenRacer 4y ago
  Mushrooms have wildly varying potencies. Even if they are cloned and grown in the same batch there will be variance and some people like knowing the precise dose they will get. People also complain about mushrooms causing nausea which is partially caused by inert organic matter. Some people may want options for reducing that. Also, while psychedelic mushrooms are reasonable to cultivate, something like peyote isn't. With the rarity of peyote, I think it's disrespectful for anyone that isn't indigenous to take it and synthetic mescaline or it's analogues provides a way to get a very similar experience without the disrespect. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with just taking mushrooms. Just throwing out some thoughts on possible reasons why some people might want to go other routes.
c7DJTLrn 4y ago
There's an interesting concoction invented by a reddit user known as the 'borax combo' or 'NeXTC' that aims to reproduce the effects of MDMA without the neurotoxicity. It's made up of 5-MAPB (a benzofuran, which this post is about), 2-FMA, and 5-MeO-MiPT. Supposedly it's pretty good. These guys can get away with legally selling pressed pills of this combo in Europe. I'm not associated with this company. https://chemical-collective.com/product/pinkstars/ https://chemical-collective.com/product/pinkstars/
- notjulianjaynes 4y ago
  I've taken 5-mapb by itself and it was pretty damn close to MDMA IMO. Throwing a tryptamine and a stimulantn in the mix sounds fun, but like it would be way more intense than "molly."
  - feet 4y ago
    Only if those compounds are included at high-ish doses. The parent comment doesn't talk about what amounts the compounds are present in
- monktastic1 4y ago
  I remember ordering 5-MAPB back in the day and then flushing it because I wasn't totally sure of its toxicity. I'm still not sure, but there are at least some indications that it has physical toxicity similar to MDMA and 5-APB: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27156124/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27156124/ I'm not sure about neurotoxicity either, but if you do some searching online, you'll find many anecdotal reports of people having miserable times for sometimes months following use. Those are mostly high or frequent doses, but I certainly don't feel comfortable taking a drug about which we know so little.
  - DontchaKnowit 4y ago
    Okay reading that abstract- that's just what happens when you take drugs lmao. All type of shit gets fucked up for the duration of the high for all type of drugs. Tachycardia, sweating, blood pressure changes. None of that says "toxicity" to me, in the traditional sense of the word.
crystaln 4y ago
Back in the day, researchers would just try the drugs instead of feeding them to mice for 20 years. Things moved a lot faster that way.
- culi 4y ago
  Many probably still do. They just publish their research on Erowid and Bluelight instead of journals
  - culi 4y ago
    I'm being somewhat glib but I genuinely think projects like Psychonaut and TripSit Wiki that try to at least organize the wealth of "underground" knowledge about these substances are tapping into a huge source of knowledge that has so far been ignored and even shunned. Obviously the challenge that remains is meaningful organization of it
  - crystaln 4y ago
    Check out TIHKAL and PIHKAL by the Shulgins.
- GuB-42 4y ago
  Maybe they did, but they can't really say it publicly. Anyways, it is not hard to find reports from people who tried these "research chemicals". These substances are often legal (because they haven't been controlled yet) and they are labs that will make them for you without asking too many questions. And by that I mean serious, registered, professional labs doing things up to specs, with GC/MS and all that stuff. Not a RV in a desert. Publish the synthesis and someone will make it and try it.
  - sterlind 4y ago
    The safety track record has been very inconsistent for RCs. Shulgin's popular creations turned out to be very safe, even in overdose, besides the few that were MAOIs (2C-T-7 and AMT, off the top of my head.) But Shulgin was looking for good, safe psychedelics. David Nichols's lab worked in the same area, but focused on high-affinity 5-HT2A agonists. They made Bromo-DragonFLY (killed a few people after it was mislabeled as 2C-B-FLY), and then most recently the NBOMe series, which is often sold as counterfeit acid. NBOMes produce spectacular, rich visuals, and a strong euphoria uncharacteristic for the class. Unfortunately, they seem to kill people at random, for no good reason. Even people taking it again at the same dose. And it can happen very abruptly. Seems to be from seizures disrupting the autonomic nervous system. So chemical purity isn't the thing to worry about, it's the pharmacology. It's like test piloting experimental aircraft or something. If you experiment, use Shulgin's method and work up very, very slowly.
photochemsyn 4y ago
I don't really have a very high opinion of MDMA, it's basically just a modified amphetamine and the amphetamines have a not-so-great historical record, being more likely to lead to addictive behavior. These modified molecules are all amphetamines - just look at the right-hand tail of the molecules in the images and compare to amphetamine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphetamine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphetamine The paper cited on the potential similarity to psilocybin and LSD (which exert their activity through the 5-HT2A receptor) is behind a paywall and mice of course are not humans, so that's very speculative. However, why mess around with compounds with unknown metabolic breakdown behavior, with unknown side effects and activity in humans, when the existing psychedelics (such as psilocybin, DMT, LSD and mescaline) are fairly well understood in terms of effects on humans?
- boring_twenties 4y ago
  Psilocybin, DMT, LSD and mescaline all have vastly different effects from MDMA. That's why MDMA is called an entactogen or empathogen, and not a psychedelic.
- vsef 4y ago
  Mescaline is a substituted amphetamine just like MDMA. As is the antidepressant buproprion (Wellbutrin). And a variety of very strong hallucinogens.
- Synaesthesia 4y ago
  MDMA can be problematic like that, it has a host of side effects, particularly at higher doses and can be mildly habit forming. The effects also wane very rapidly with repeated use and the side effects become much worse. A valuable drug but one to use with caution. I would definitely stick to the below 120mg dosages, these pills with 220mg are way too much!
DontchaKnowit 4y ago
Done 5-apb - ask me anything. It was fun. Probably neurotoxic. Can't say I recommend doing random ass Chinese chemicals with little history of human consumption.
- pcthrowaway 4y ago
  Why do you say "probably neurotoxic"? Do you mean moreso than MDMA? If so, do you suspect it's only being studied for its therapeutic use because it's currently not criminalized?
  - hayst4ck 4y ago
    MDMA is not known to be neurotoxic. The study that showed that accidentally used methamphetamine, which is definitely neurotoxic. https://www.nature.com/articles/425109a https://www.nature.com/articles/425109a If you prefer to hear it straight from a Stanford professor's mouth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4QE6t-MkYE&t=5052s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4QE6t-MkYE&t=5052s
    - pcthrowaway 4y ago
      I'm aware that MDMA is not neurotoxic, I was wondering why the person I responded to called the research chem they took "probably neurotoxic"... but perhaps they were under the impression that MDMA is neurotoxic, and therefore considering this research chemical "guilty by association" or something
      - DontchaKnowit 4y ago
        So firstly I did and do think mdma is neurotoxic. I was under the impression that the literature was pretty settled on it being neurotoxic but sounds like I might be wrong about that. I said 5-apb is probably nuerotoxic because it's serotonin effects felt very similar to mama, and that feeling has always felt to me like I was doing low grade brain damage or at the very least heavily downregulating my serotonin receptor system.
    - 4y ago
DontchaKnowit 4y ago
These being re-take inhibitors and releasers is very interesting and concerning. That combination is typically not considered safe because you are increasing the amount of a given transmitter and diminishing your ability to deal with it. These are probably very nuerotoxic.
gqz 4y ago
Another class of putatively non- or less-neurotoxic entactogens I don't see mentioned here are aminoindanes, which David Nichols' group specifically engineered to have lower neurotoxic potential. The classic prototype here is 5,6-methylenedioxy-2-aminoindane, or MDAI. It's also worth considering. The other broad classes of potentially non- or less-neurotoxic entactogens which I'm aware of, other than aminoindanes, are benzofurans (which are covered in the article) and substituted cathinones. Imo, all three classes contain molecules which are just peachy :) I recommend (prudent) exploration.

53 points by beefman 4y ago

I am not a professional but as I understand APBs (and MDMA) have the same issue as Fen-Phen in that they are cardiotoxic and can cause heart valve issues due to high 5HT2b receptor affinity, which might be mitigated by combination with a 5HT2b antagonist such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS-127445 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS-127445

csdvrx 4y ago
Super interesting comment, but it was marked "dead", so I vouched for you. But let's not suggest taking research chemicals for maybe mitigating a known negative side effect for the chemical family of compounds, as it could do good... but it could also bring another negative side effects on top of this one, or a worse one!
- quesomaster9000 4y ago
  Is the verdict still out on magnesium supplements? As much as Theranos has been discredited, there is still opportunity to perform near real-time serum measurements in novel ways which could have a huge impact on the safety of pharmaceutical consumption (even for recreational uses) in the forthcoming 20 years. Although the current focus is diabetes, the possibilities are limitless.
  - 55555 4y ago
    What do you mean IRT magnesium supplements?
- robertmp 4y ago
  Yeah you are right. All this stuff is bad news, best to stay away imo
  - csdvrx 4y ago
    I don't know if you reply is sarcasm or not. I was just trying to warn people that reality is often more complex than simple plans. There have been other interesting comments, just as interesting as your original one, offering more information as to why it's not as clear cut as some people are pretending it to be.
    - robertmp 4y ago

motohagiography 4y ago

Interesting to isolate them and analogs and even synthesizing psylocibin, but what was wrong with just taking shrooms? Even if you can synthesize them, it doesn't mean these fungi are not here to take care of us and we should respect them. -- as taken from a recent argument with a psychedelics enthusiast. Take it as you will.

robertmp 4y ago
Interesting side note, you can feed psilocybin mushrooms synthetic tryptamines not found in nature and they will process them into 4-HO derivatives.
- LanternLight83 4y ago
  That's really neat! Where'd you hear about that?
- feet 4y ago
  Ooh I remember reading a bit about this years back. Not much research has been done into it though, do you know of any recent work? I'd love to read about it
droopyEyelids 4y ago
not patentable
DontchaKnowit 4y ago
As with all designer drugs - shrouds = controlled - novel analog = unregulated
GoldenRacer 4y ago
Mushrooms have wildly varying potencies. Even if they are cloned and grown in the same batch there will be variance and some people like knowing the precise dose they will get. People also complain about mushrooms causing nausea which is partially caused by inert organic matter. Some people may want options for reducing that. Also, while psychedelic mushrooms are reasonable to cultivate, something like peyote isn't. With the rarity of peyote, I think it's disrespectful for anyone that isn't indigenous to take it and synthetic mescaline or it's analogues provides a way to get a very similar experience without the disrespect. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with just taking mushrooms. Just throwing out some thoughts on possible reasons why some people might want to go other routes.

c7DJTLrn 4y ago

There's an interesting concoction invented by a reddit user known as the 'borax combo' or 'NeXTC' that aims to reproduce the effects of MDMA without the neurotoxicity. It's made up of 5-MAPB (a benzofuran, which this post is about), 2-FMA, and 5-MeO-MiPT. Supposedly it's pretty good. These guys can get away with legally selling pressed pills of this combo in Europe. I'm not associated with this company. https://chemical-collective.com/product/pinkstars/ https://chemical-collective.com/product/pinkstars/

notjulianjaynes 4y ago
I've taken 5-mapb by itself and it was pretty damn close to MDMA IMO. Throwing a tryptamine and a stimulantn in the mix sounds fun, but like it would be way more intense than "molly."
- feet 4y ago
  Only if those compounds are included at high-ish doses. The parent comment doesn't talk about what amounts the compounds are present in
monktastic1 4y ago
I remember ordering 5-MAPB back in the day and then flushing it because I wasn't totally sure of its toxicity. I'm still not sure, but there are at least some indications that it has physical toxicity similar to MDMA and 5-APB: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27156124/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27156124/ I'm not sure about neurotoxicity either, but if you do some searching online, you'll find many anecdotal reports of people having miserable times for sometimes months following use. Those are mostly high or frequent doses, but I certainly don't feel comfortable taking a drug about which we know so little.
- DontchaKnowit 4y ago
  Okay reading that abstract- that's just what happens when you take drugs lmao. All type of shit gets fucked up for the duration of the high for all type of drugs. Tachycardia, sweating, blood pressure changes. None of that says "toxicity" to me, in the traditional sense of the word.

crystaln 4y ago

Back in the day, researchers would just try the drugs instead of feeding them to mice for 20 years. Things moved a lot faster that way.

culi 4y ago
Many probably still do. They just publish their research on Erowid and Bluelight instead of journals
- culi 4y ago
  I'm being somewhat glib but I genuinely think projects like Psychonaut and TripSit Wiki that try to at least organize the wealth of "underground" knowledge about these substances are tapping into a huge source of knowledge that has so far been ignored and even shunned. Obviously the challenge that remains is meaningful organization of it
- crystaln 4y ago
  Check out TIHKAL and PIHKAL by the Shulgins.
GuB-42 4y ago
Maybe they did, but they can't really say it publicly. Anyways, it is not hard to find reports from people who tried these "research chemicals". These substances are often legal (because they haven't been controlled yet) and they are labs that will make them for you without asking too many questions. And by that I mean serious, registered, professional labs doing things up to specs, with GC/MS and all that stuff. Not a RV in a desert. Publish the synthesis and someone will make it and try it.
- sterlind 4y ago
  The safety track record has been very inconsistent for RCs. Shulgin's popular creations turned out to be very safe, even in overdose, besides the few that were MAOIs (2C-T-7 and AMT, off the top of my head.) But Shulgin was looking for good, safe psychedelics. David Nichols's lab worked in the same area, but focused on high-affinity 5-HT2A agonists. They made Bromo-DragonFLY (killed a few people after it was mislabeled as 2C-B-FLY), and then most recently the NBOMe series, which is often sold as counterfeit acid. NBOMes produce spectacular, rich visuals, and a strong euphoria uncharacteristic for the class. Unfortunately, they seem to kill people at random, for no good reason. Even people taking it again at the same dose. And it can happen very abruptly. Seems to be from seizures disrupting the autonomic nervous system. So chemical purity isn't the thing to worry about, it's the pharmacology. It's like test piloting experimental aircraft or something. If you experiment, use Shulgin's method and work up very, very slowly.

photochemsyn 4y ago

I don't really have a very high opinion of MDMA, it's basically just a modified amphetamine and the amphetamines have a not-so-great historical record, being more likely to lead to addictive behavior. These modified molecules are all amphetamines - just look at the right-hand tail of the molecules in the images and compare to amphetamine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphetamine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphetamine The paper cited on the potential similarity to psilocybin and LSD (which exert their activity through the 5-HT2A receptor) is behind a paywall and mice of course are not humans, so that's very speculative. However, why mess around with compounds with unknown metabolic breakdown behavior, with unknown side effects and activity in humans, when the existing psychedelics (such as psilocybin, DMT, LSD and mescaline) are fairly well understood in terms of effects on humans?

boring_twenties 4y ago
Psilocybin, DMT, LSD and mescaline all have vastly different effects from MDMA. That's why MDMA is called an entactogen or empathogen, and not a psychedelic.
vsef 4y ago
Mescaline is a substituted amphetamine just like MDMA. As is the antidepressant buproprion (Wellbutrin). And a variety of very strong hallucinogens.
Synaesthesia 4y ago
MDMA can be problematic like that, it has a host of side effects, particularly at higher doses and can be mildly habit forming. The effects also wane very rapidly with repeated use and the side effects become much worse. A valuable drug but one to use with caution. I would definitely stick to the below 120mg dosages, these pills with 220mg are way too much!

DontchaKnowit 4y ago

Done 5-apb - ask me anything. It was fun. Probably neurotoxic. Can't say I recommend doing random ass Chinese chemicals with little history of human consumption.

pcthrowaway 4y ago
Why do you say "probably neurotoxic"? Do you mean moreso than MDMA? If so, do you suspect it's only being studied for its therapeutic use because it's currently not criminalized?
- hayst4ck 4y ago
  MDMA is not known to be neurotoxic. The study that showed that accidentally used methamphetamine, which is definitely neurotoxic. https://www.nature.com/articles/425109a https://www.nature.com/articles/425109a If you prefer to hear it straight from a Stanford professor's mouth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4QE6t-MkYE&t=5052s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4QE6t-MkYE&t=5052s
  - pcthrowaway 4y ago
    I'm aware that MDMA is not neurotoxic, I was wondering why the person I responded to called the research chem they took "probably neurotoxic"... but perhaps they were under the impression that MDMA is neurotoxic, and therefore considering this research chemical "guilty by association" or something
    - DontchaKnowit 4y ago
      So firstly I did and do think mdma is neurotoxic. I was under the impression that the literature was pretty settled on it being neurotoxic but sounds like I might be wrong about that. I said 5-apb is probably nuerotoxic because it's serotonin effects felt very similar to mama, and that feeling has always felt to me like I was doing low grade brain damage or at the very least heavily downregulating my serotonin receptor system.
  - 4y ago

DontchaKnowit 4y ago

These being re-take inhibitors and releasers is very interesting and concerning. That combination is typically not considered safe because you are increasing the amount of a given transmitter and diminishing your ability to deal with it. These are probably very nuerotoxic.

gqz 4y ago

Another class of putatively non- or less-neurotoxic entactogens I don't see mentioned here are aminoindanes, which David Nichols' group specifically engineered to have lower neurotoxic potential. The classic prototype here is 5,6-methylenedioxy-2-aminoindane, or MDAI. It's also worth considering. The other broad classes of potentially non- or less-neurotoxic entactogens which I'm aware of, other than aminoindanes, are benzofurans (which are covered in the article) and substituted cathinones. Imo, all three classes contain molecules which are just peachy :) I recommend (prudent) exploration.