13 ms·

My thoughts on the Framework laptop

233 points by kelvie 4y ago

robertlagrant 4y ago
> If you're Framework, please just hire a dedicated Linux person, preferably a kernel developer. Cathartic rant, or best cover letter ever?
- hoistbypetard 4y ago
  My comment was going to be Best. Cover letter. Ever. but I decided to scroll through the comments first. You beat me by a couple of hours.
  - javajosh 4y ago
    "When all you have is a kernel dev, everything looks like a kernel problem."
    - ruscurdotau 4y ago
      Author here, I don't necessarily think they need an in-house kernel dev, but it wouldn't hurt. Mainly they need someone familiar with the ecosystem that knows how upstream works, knows how to interact with distros, knows how to do some kernel debugging themselves, etc. Hiring a kernel dev makes sense because they'd already have those skills and can help out on the firmware side for Framework as well. Realistically it looks to me like they need a reasonably technical desktop Linux user with social skills and anything else is a bonus, but I have no idea what skills they have internally
      - noirbot 4y ago
        I'm not even sure that would help - they've got devs from the Fedora and Elementary teams who are openly posting guides and claiming they're working to ensure compatibility and my experience running both OS's has been... flaky at best, and this was on the 11th Gen CPU that evidently works better than the current model. Fedora definitely is doing the best, but audio, mic, and webcam all barely/randomly functioned, and a stiff breeze made the graphics driver crash. Arch, Ubuntu, PopOS, Elementary and LMDE all purport to work, but half of them wouldn't even install properly as documented, and the ones that did had just as many or more errors and crashes as Fedora. I'm on LMDE right now and Cinnamon crashes 50% of the time I try to change workspaces. It's gotta just be something amazingly wrong with their hardware choices. I've been full-time running Linux on my desktop for over a year and had more issues in an afternoon with my Framework than with a year of that.
- ruscurdotau 4y ago
  Author here, I wrote this in the hope I wouldn't have to solve my own laptop problems...
  - gooseyman 4y ago
    I’d love to read on your blog next “how I debugged the Linux kernel on my Framework laptop.” I have always been so curious about how this actually gets done.
    - ruscurdotau 4y ago
      I tend to debug like a caveman so I don't know if I'm the right person for that - in this case, I just went through config options (make menuconfig) and turned on CONFIG_DRM_I915_DEBUG and a bunch of associated things, then built and booted and played around. Got nothing useful out of that but I didn't spend a huge amount of time diving into the driver. In this case it's pretty different to regular kernel debug because I'm not debugging kernel code itself, I'm trying to glean more information out of hardware that I have no knowledge of, it's not as simple as "there's a bug on line X and I need to find out why this pointer is invalid" etc.
postpawl 4y ago
> objectively incorrect choice of a Ctrl/Fn/Super/Alt layout instead of Fn/Ctrl/Super/Alt That can be switched in bios. I haven’t had any WiFi issues on Ubuntu that require turning it off and back on. The author seems to be using arch.
- kramerger 4y ago
  I wish we could choose one layout and then keep to it. I mean, I am all open to an EU law here and I'm an not even joking. Update: calm down, I only meant the Fn and Ctrl positions :)
  - taeric 4y ago
    I don't know if I want to switch back to qwerty, at this point. :D
  - orangepurple 4y ago
    There are only a handful of mainstream keyboard layouts. Mostly ISO and ANSI.
    - chrisseaton 4y ago
      > There are only a handful of mainstream keyboard layouts. Mostly ISO and ANSI. You've got to be joking? Not even all my Macs have the same keyboard, let alone looking at Windows laptops.
  - Xeamek 4y ago
    That's still bad, at this point there are equally as many ctrl-fn fanatics, as fn-ctrl. Option to adjust them in bios is perfect solution
    - JimBlackwood 4y ago
      Why a BIOS option? I don’t see why laptop keyboards can’t just ship with programmable firmwares. I think ZSA is showing with their Oryx GUI just how easy it can be for an end user.
newaccount2021 4y ago
Why do I have to buy the DIY Edition to get a Linux laptop? I don't want to build a laptop, and I don't want Windows.
- halefx 4y ago
  Mostly because there is no one "Linux" OS, there are many.
  - girvo 4y ago
    Sure. Send me the completed device and I’ll install the OS.
- Iridescent_ 4y ago
  The "build" part is really just installing the SSD and RAM, which has been extremely easy even as a novice in terms of hardware thanks to how well-built the Framework is + installation manual available online. Do not let the "DIY" part scare you.
  - ccooffee 4y ago
    Personally, I found the "DIY" edition to be great. It was REALLY easy (probably took me 10 minutes, but could be done under 2 with practice), and by needing to "assemble" the product myself, I got much more comfortable opening it up. Since getting my OG framework, I've needed to open the case a couple times to clean the keyboard, which isn't something I've ever felt safe doing with previous laptops.
  - newaccount2021 4y ago
  - MaxLeiter 4y ago
    And the antenna cables...
- ruscurdotau 4y ago
  My guess is they make a nice margin on those Windows licenses and they figure if you're going to install your own OS you might as well put in your own SSD and RAM. It does suck for consumers though.
Rebelgecko 4y ago
Agree with a lot of these points. It's wild to me that the brightness keys are nonfunctional (unless you sacrifice the ambient light sensor) and there's no ETA on a fix. Random freezes and graphical issues aren't fun either. Another annoyance is weird handling of non-integer scaling on Linux. It's not great on Windows, but I don't need to dig into config files for most apps or use one off launch arguments.
- kelvie 4y ago
  Yeah, as another fairly technical Framework owner, my experience was basically 100% the same as the author's. Are you on wayland? This is my first wayland experience (if you don't count the Steam Deck), and it was mostly seamless only after upgrading to the latest KDE, which disables scaling for Xwayland programs. Firefox still requires a janky workaround for wayland though, but as I understand it, wayland-based setups depend strongly on what the compositor implements (in my case, Kwin I think).
  - noasaservice 4y ago
    That sagging, old Wayland is designed like a garbage scow. I meant to say that it should be hauled away AS garbage!
    - aidenn0 4y ago
      Well sir, this was a matter of pride!
- vhodges 4y ago
  re: fractional scaling... it seems to work okay in both Cinnamon and Plasma (X11 for both - no experience with Wayland)
- kmeisthax 4y ago
  I was able to """fix""" the graphical crashes and non-integer scaling problems by... going back to Xorg. :/ Wayland reliably crashes after a day (standby or no), and the resulting crash renders the sound codec hardware inoperable until I unplug the battery. Xorg has had no issues. Well, except for the massive amount of screen tearing.
nikodunk 4y ago
I develop using an 11th gen Framework and have run into none of the issues that this person talked about full-time on Fedora for a year. Must be only the 12th gen that has these issues.
- hifikuno 4y ago
  I believe he says that his issues stem from the fact he is using a 12th-gen cpu. At the end of the article he mentions trying to get an 11th-gen if you can as that won't have the issues and will be slightly cheaper.
  - nikodunk 4y ago
    Ah yes! I did read this but my comment was misleading. Corrected.
skybrian 4y ago
I'm hopeful that the Chromebook edition works out. People who want things to "just work" can run that. By the time Chrome OS support expires, hopefully Linux distros will have pretty polished device support.
- yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
  It's the same kernel driving the same hardware, why would it be any different?
  - skybrian 4y ago
    There are many Linux kernels and user-space stuff can be different.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
      It is my understanding that ChromeOS aggressively tracks mainline Linux. I don't have enough information to tell what the kernel/userspace split on problems is, true.
  - bubblethink 4y ago
    It is not necessarily the same hardware. Neither is it the same kernel, nor the same bios/firmware.
pdonis 4y ago
My deal breaker for a Framework laptop is the Intel CPU.
- danudey 4y ago
  I'll admit that after reading about the train wreck that is Intel's Linux support for their 12th gen platform, my first thought was "ooh, maybe Ryzen frameworks next". The (other) dream would be an Apple M1/M2-comparable ARM CPU, but I don't think those even exist, let alone are feasible for a consumer laptop. Fingers crossed.
eduction 4y ago
The money quote IMO: "I genuinely think the out-of-box experience of the Framework laptop is worse than anything I've ever seen in over a decade of Lenovo laptops. " He does say he likes the laptop and doesn't think the issues he hit with 12th gen Intel should keep you from buying an 11th gen Framework. On the other hand he's been a kernel dev for seven years and had to spend "ages debugging including building my own kernels with additional debugging as well as trying different firmware versions before giving up." He had issues with wifi, power management, brightness control, the GPU, "and my computer is locking up constantly." Oy.
- Foxboron 4y ago
  Frankly, I got a Lenovo T14 Gen 3, 12th gen Intel. It's the worst laptop I've had in a decade. They spent 6 months fixing an issue where two internal DP ports where visible to the driver which caused the kernel to not survive a suspend. The issue is with the Tigerlake reference design, and a lot of companies will need to push firmware updates to get things sorted out. This is the upstream driver issue: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/intel/-/issues/5531#note_1477044 https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/intel/-/issues/5531#note_... Lenovo forum thread: https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Other-Linux-Discussions/Thinkpad-T16-can-t-resume-from-suspend/m-p/5160642 https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Other-Linux-Discussions/Thinkpa... EDIT: I realized I'm typing this on the 11th gen Framework I own. While the Lenovo laptop is somewhere behind my couch, I think.
  - dopeboy 4y ago
    We must live in parallel universes. T15 gen 2 here, works phenomenally on ubuntu 20.04.
    - shallichange 4y ago
      Same here, but I chose the AMD T14. Flawless.
    - Foxboron 4y ago
      You misunderstand. All the Lenovo laptops I've had are flawless. The issue is the 12th gen Intel board which you can select on some models.
abeisgreat 4y ago
My two cents as a Linux based developer - my 11th gen Framework has been largely fantastic. There was some annoying BIOS issues but they pushed a fix, there was bad battery life, but they pushed a fix. Overall it feels like an indie device still, but I’d take that over the mass production walled garden nonsense of competing machines. I feel like I own this device more than any other recent electronic purchases other than perhaps my Raspberry Pis.
- GoldenRacer 4y ago
  I second this. It definitely has some issues and I wouldn't recommend it just yet for people that aren't willing to tinker with it but at least you can tinker with it and I haven't had a problem yet that I don't think a reasonably competent user couldn't find a workaround for. If that's not your jam, then you should probably wait a bit. I really hope framework is able to get things sorted out so it can be more mainstream but for that to happen, they need early adopters. If you don't mind a bit of tinkering (I've spent maybe 2-3 hours in the 2 months I've owned mine), don't be scared. Before getting mine, I read some stories and was really worried I'd be in over my head and end up regretting a $1400 purchase but as of right now, I'm really thrilled with it. Quick edit: I have a 12th gen if it matters
  - warner25 4y ago
    I agree with both of you guys. I've had my 11th gen Framework (DIY running Linux) for a year now, and I'm in love. However, I wouldn't recommend it to the average person. That person should probably just get a cheap Chromebook (not the $999 one sold by Framework), or Surface Pro running Windows S mode that's impossible to break (in software), which runs perfectly out-of-the-box and can go to the Best Buy Geek Squad or Microsoft store whenever they need help. My opinion is that the Framework will never be a mass market product because the average person doesn't want to spend time choosing individual hardware components and taking it apart to swap them when they need a repair or upgrade. I think they should just double-down on serving the niche desktop Linux and tinkerer market.
curt15 4y ago
"There's a lot of "don't blame Framework, blame Intel" sentiment in that thread, and while it's absolutely true that it's a flaw in Intel's driver for Intel's hardware, that doesn't matter a whole lot to someone who's just spent a thousand dollars on a laptop that advertises strong Linux support. Framework is both lifted up and brought down by the many contributing parts of the Linux ecosystem, credit can't only be given for the positives." This. When my Mac has GPU problems, I don't complain to NVIDIA or AMD; I complain to Apple. Since Apple is the final integrator, it has the ultimate responsibility for ensuring that all parts work well together. Similarly, whenever a laptop is advertised by its manufacturer as "linux compatible" or "linux certified", it is their job to ensure that linux actually works out of the box.
- caboteria 4y ago
  "don't blame Framework, blame Intel" is a false dichotomy: it's OK to blame both at the same time.
  - otikik 4y ago
    Indeed. Few things in life are free. Blaming others is free and free of consequences.
  - nomel 4y ago
    > it's OK to blame both at the same time. You either do compatibility testing, and frame the marketing around the truth, or you have pissed off customers. There's not really an alternative in the hardware world. The logo on the exterior of the product is who they'll, rightfully, blame.
  - pmontra 4y ago
    People usually blame the manufacturer they paid the money to. In this case Framework could have chosen AMD or tested with Linux or stated that Linux is unsupported on 12th gen Intel or... There are so many possibilities.
- akvadrako 4y ago
  > Advertised strong Linux support ? I looked at framework laptops and as far as I could see there is zero official Linux support. There are some community forums for it, but no warranty if something doesn't work or officially support distributions or anything.
math-dev 4y ago
I just bought a Lenovo laptop and wiped Windows off it / installed Linux for the first time. As largely a newcomer to Linux, it was very smooth. Had some issues getting the wifi to work, but once that got resolved, everything has been super smooth. I must admit there is a bit of a learning curve, i didn’t fully appreciate the differences between the various distributions. Shame that an indie company who is actively selling linux machines, can’t have them working off the bat. That’s unacceptable
- pmontra 4y ago
  Which Lenovo model did you buy?
- willnonya 4y ago
  The biggest issues I've had with this on Lenovo laptops have been uefi based. Of course the Lenovo uefi isn't exactly great regardless of your OS choice. System76 is really the only option making both the hardware and maintaining their own Linux distro but then you're still left with a Linux distro...
javajosh 4y ago
Hmm. Maybe the issue is with the factory install process or I lucked out and picked the right distro because I'm super happy, surprisingly so, with Ubuntu 22. It was the first time in a LONG time I've done my own OS install, so I was a little worried, but I made it a relaxing, non-rushed experience making the USB stick on another computer. I've done no tweaking to the OS and its...great. And by great I mean "I don't really think about the OS and sometimes I forget I'm in Ubuntu". Of course, there are some quirks. The thing seems to leak power while suspended - but the work around is to shutdown, since it boots in ~5 seconds anyway! The fingerprint reader on the power button doesn't work, but that's not something I would really use anyway. Snap seems to be broken in ways I don't understand, because it periodically prompts me to do the same thing over and over and never seems to succeed. That seems more like an Ubuntu problem - like, ditch snap, whatever it is.
- danudey 4y ago
  Did you get the 11th gen or the 12th gen? The 11th gen experience is largely free of issues (after a few BIOS updates), but the 12th gen experience is composed almost entirely of them.
  - javajosh 4y ago
    I got perhaps the second or third batch of 11th gen - I didn't realize they had another revision! That really sucks it introduced so many problems.
  - burntsushi 4y ago
    The 11th gen is definitely not free of issues. I have an 11th gen, and my Framework takes about 10 seconds to wake from suspend. Yes, I'm using 'deep' sleep: $ cat /sys/power/mem_sleep s2idle [deep] And no I'm not switching to 's2idle' because that results in far greater battery drain. Also, even when in 'deep' suspend mode, there was some pretty significant power drain when I had the HDMI and USB-A expansion cards installed. I "fixed" it by replacing them with USB-C cards. Not a huge deal for my usage pattern, but annoying nonetheless.
    - 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
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RosanaAnaDana 4y ago
Any one here able to offer a comparative on Framework versus System76? I pulled the trigger on a system 76 and I've been disappointed. I really want to support this Linux first movement, but I need something that's a daily driver that just works. Has any one used both?
znpy 4y ago
I guess i dodged a bullet by not getting a framework laptop and getting second hand thinkpad again. Oh well.
vhodges 4y ago
fwiw, I have a 12th Gen running Nix and I don't have any of these problems (well the brightness keys don't work but at least the sound/volume keys do - this is probably a DE issue). Sleep/resume work, but I haven't tried to get hibernate working. I don't use the fingerprint reader. And I am connected pretty much full time to power (I did set the max charge to 60% in the bios) so battery life is not such a deal breaker for me I DID see the stuttering/laggy issue in X11 but the fix I found for that worked like a charm (note I only saw this issue after a few days of playing/switching DEs). Currently running Cinnamon but also tried Plasma and Pantheon. I do wish the palm rejection was better on the touch pad. I have lazy fingers/thumbs that hover over the touch pad and I get a ton of spurious clicks which is driving me crazy.
- bionade24 4y ago
  Seems more like you do have these problems but they don't matter to you personally.
  - vhodges 4y ago
    How so? My machine doesn't lock up at all, no random crashes or freezes. Things work. Now you are correct that there are things I don't use or care about that may or may not work out of the box perfectly out of the box but the tweaks, settings and fixes are getting to be pretty known like power management for better battery life or suspend-then-hibernate. I've been following Frame.work since the beginning and it seems the early days of the 12th Gen seem much smoother than the early days of the 11th Gen.
- haradion 4y ago
  Your experience with NixOS mirrors mine. I got hibernation working with a little fiddling. Suspend-then-hibernate also mostly works but occasionally turns my laptop sleeve into an Easy-Bake oven, so I've started triggering hibernation manually before I put it away. Plasma's touch pad settings help a bit with the extra clicks, but a little extra palm rejection is something I wouldn't complain about. Pretty happy overall, though.
billfor 4y ago
I have the 12th gen dual booting windows 10 and jellyfish, and have not had any problems with jellyfish other than the issue with the brightness adjustment which has an easy workaround. I read the article quickly but I didn’t see which kernel or os he had an issue with, but 22.04 is fine
prvc 4y ago
>the only thing that's actively annoying me day-to-day is their objectively incorrect choice of a Ctrl/Fn/Super/Alt layout instead of Fn/Ctrl/Super/Alt (and the fan is a little loud). Has anyone managed to shim an actual Thinkpad keyboard with Trackpoint buttons into this yet? That would probably satisfy most.
kiawe_fire 4y ago
I really want to support and try the Framework, but my experience with Intel lately has mirrored this. Poor drivers, weird iGPU issues. Even my last Intel MacBook Pro had some issues. That, plus it’s puzzling to me that perhaps the most viably customizable thing - the keyboard (which the author of this post also calls out) is available in such few configurations. I would love a keyboard with a non-Windows super key, with a FN / Ctrl / Super / Alt layout. Offering an array of layouts isn’t even a viable option on anything else, so this seems like a market they could own.
evilos 4y ago
Framework, I will give you so much money if you release an AMD version. I'm begging you.
javier2 4y ago
Have the freezes been fixed upstream?
JohnTHaller 4y ago
Are there any 12th gen Intel laptops that support Linux well? I was under the impression that 12th gen support on Linux is rough all around.
- PaulWaldman 4y ago
  It's interesting that Alder Lake was released about a year ago and it is still plagued with stability issues. Are Linux developers able to get their hands on engineering samples from Intel prior to release?
  - wmf 4y ago
    Yes, because the developers work at Intel.
mixmastamyk 4y ago
My Dell developer laptop didn't get full support of obscure peripherals for about a year, for very obscure ones for almost five years. It was speaking DCI to a monitor over their Thunderbolt dock, IIRC. I had worked around it with an extra hdmi cable, so never got to enjoy the supposed single-cable detach that was promised. By the time it was fixed and deployed to distributions, I was ready to move on to my new Framework. It's the nature of the beast with Linux. I think expecting Apple level R&D from a startup is unrealistic. Dell I expected a bit more of, but they did acceptably. Remember when wi-fi was a crapshoot!?
- willnonya 4y ago
  Hardware support is one of the major issues with Linux. When the common retort involes not needing new hardware it's obvious they're missing the point. It's great that Linux works well enough on ancient hardware. The fact that it doesn't work well on newer hardware is itself a problem. Heaven forbid you need to used Intel rst or an lte modem. Just mentioning either if those inevitably triggers a "why would you need those" response.
  - mixmastamyk 4y ago
    We make our choices. I'll take late support for obscure hardware over ubiquitous surveillance every day of the week.
    - willnonya 4y ago
      "Late" support. That's easy to say when you're not the one needing to use hardware that Linux doesn't support a decade later. Or the more mainstream features that aren't supported for 3-5 years after they went Mai stream. I'm not a fan of what MS has turned windows into but their surveillance is easier to mitigate than Linux insiting we use hardware from he 90's.
_eht 4y ago
Flimsiest laptop ever, and I’ve owned cheap chrome books…
- 6figurelenins 4y ago
  My Pixelbook Go with a broken plastic hinge would like a word.
jef_leppard 4y ago
I bought a System 76 laptop a few years ago and stuff like this is why I went back to Apple. I was always dealing with one weird thing or another. One day it decides it wont wake from sleep if I have it in clamshell mode, another it decides it can't find my bluetooth peripherals. I finally rage quit when my webcam went down for no reason. I spent 2500 bucks on that thing and gave up on it in less than a year. Meanwhile, I have a 2015 MBP that runs like a champ. My new M1 air goes 2 days without a charge and I never have to think about dumb shit like waking from sleep. Oh and theres the resale value. I can't give away my S76 but I bet you if I put that 2015 MBP up on craigslist, it'll still fetch me a few hundred bucks... When I was a younger man with more free time I would have fought the good fight but these days? I just want my shit to work.
- trelane 4y ago
  Interesting. That's the polar opposite of my own experience. And I usually put Gentoo on them instead of Pop. They've been rock solid for me since 2013 or so, when I first started with them. And their support has been top notch.
- qudat 4y ago
  My mbp (2018) is fairly reliable but there have been more than a few occasions where the laptop doesn’t wake from sleep properly. My 11th gen framework has actually been more reliable on that front. My biggest gripes with framework are the battery life and speakers, otherwise arch just worked out of the box for me.
Schnitz 4y ago
TLDR: works worse than a Thinkpad T43 with Ubuntu in 2009… :-(
noasaservice 4y ago
So framework runs the same sort of half-baked gongkai "blame someone else" business that Pine does? Well I'm glad I bought a well supported Dell latitude.
bubblethink 4y ago
From the current crop of laptop manufacturers, I'm most optimistic about Starlabs. They have in-house staff for coreboot development and linux related things, and they have more independence in hardwware design as opposed to being a Clevo reseller.
jeff-davis 4y ago
I'm happy with mine, even though I did notice the brightness keys don't work (but there's a software slider in ubuntu that does the same thing, so I don't really care). Way better than the last two Lenovos I had. Your milage may vary.
bityard 4y ago
I used to be bullish on Intel for laptops because throughout the 2010s they always had excellent ethernet, wifi, and integrated GPU support in Linux. I currently switch between two older-gen Intel laptops (4 and 7 years old) and they both run Linux pretty much flawlessly for everything I need. Suspend/resume works every time, good battery life, external display through a _real_ hardware dock (not USB/Thunderdolt). Right now, I'm scared to upgrade to anything newer just based on the sheer number of problems I keep hearing about laptops that run hot with atrocious battery life, and non-functional or at least unpredictable suspend/resume behavior, and heaven help if you want to use two non-identical displays. For a while there, Linux often had earlier and better support for mainstream hardware than Windows. It's sad to see that trend regressing, I wonder what's causing it. Do AMD-based laptops have any of the power management (battery life) and suspend/resume issues that have plagued recent Intel chipsets?
- filmgirlcw 4y ago
  > Do AMD-based laptops have any of the power management (battery life) and suspend/resume issues that have plagued recent Intel chipsets? Battery life is better. Suspend/resume stuff is still a problem. And yes, there does seem to have been a regression with Linux support earlier in the hardware lifecycle than Windows. Not sure when it started, but it’s a trend I’ve noticed over the last 3 years or so.
  - bubblethink 4y ago
    Most of these sleep/suspend issues are related to deprecation of the old s3 sleep method and migration to the new s0ix sleep stuff for modern standby.
Fire-Dragon-DoL 4y ago
I use linux laptop and what he described is the reason why I buy linux certified laptops. I would send it back if that was the out of the box experience
andreareina 4y ago
What's missing is what distro they're using. I've got a Framework running Pop! and I've got none of the hardware issues the author describes. In fact my biggest issue (aside from battery life and speakers) is that the 22.04 Gnome DE seems to be less capable than my Ubuntu 18.04 work machine: system configuration applets have been simplified to the point of near uselessness, I can no longer make screenshots via hotkey, etc. Oh, and somehow Steam still isn't able to handle hidpi in 2022?
robinduckett 4y ago
I have the full spec Framework laptop, 12th Gen, running the latest Ubuntu. I haven’t found a single issue, apart from the brightness keys. I don’t have any freezing issue at all.
- warent 4y ago
  Same here. It's the best work machine I've ever had exiting the land of Macbook Pros. BTW, for the brightness keys, this fixed it for me: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32929022 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32929022
6figurelenins 4y ago
I can't speak to Fedora, but Debian stable runs great. Best laptop I've owned, hands down. Caveats: + Wifi needs kernel 5.19 from backports (USB tether your phone to download.). + fprintd (fingerprint) from testing/bookworm. + Brightness keys conflict with the ambient light sensor. + Power optimization fiddling. I found answers for all the above on their forums, day 1. Pleasant surprises: - P-series chip gets out of my way. (U-series battery life sounds nice, but dev tasks can be jarringly slow. YMMV.). - Fan is not distracting at full load Disappointments: - Fractional scaling. Workaround: bump font, icon sizes in desktop settings. - SD card reader consumes ~1W idle. - Speakers could be louder. I believe there's a new module.
eimrine 4y ago
> Brightness keys don't work without disabling a kernel module. Why brightness in every laptop is software controlled? I am so frustrated when every time I press brightness+ or brightness- on my Linux laptop, the desired effect comes after 5-10 seconds just because my CPU is busy by something else. If I have 20 steps of brightness then changing from minimum to maximum or vice versa is never less than a minute.

233 points by kelvie 4y ago

> If you're Framework, please just hire a dedicated Linux person, preferably a kernel developer. Cathartic rant, or best cover letter ever?

hoistbypetard 4y ago
My comment was going to be Best. Cover letter. Ever. but I decided to scroll through the comments first. You beat me by a couple of hours.
- javajosh 4y ago
  "When all you have is a kernel dev, everything looks like a kernel problem."
  - ruscurdotau 4y ago
    Author here, I don't necessarily think they need an in-house kernel dev, but it wouldn't hurt. Mainly they need someone familiar with the ecosystem that knows how upstream works, knows how to interact with distros, knows how to do some kernel debugging themselves, etc. Hiring a kernel dev makes sense because they'd already have those skills and can help out on the firmware side for Framework as well. Realistically it looks to me like they need a reasonably technical desktop Linux user with social skills and anything else is a bonus, but I have no idea what skills they have internally
    - noirbot 4y ago
      I'm not even sure that would help - they've got devs from the Fedora and Elementary teams who are openly posting guides and claiming they're working to ensure compatibility and my experience running both OS's has been... flaky at best, and this was on the 11th Gen CPU that evidently works better than the current model. Fedora definitely is doing the best, but audio, mic, and webcam all barely/randomly functioned, and a stiff breeze made the graphics driver crash. Arch, Ubuntu, PopOS, Elementary and LMDE all purport to work, but half of them wouldn't even install properly as documented, and the ones that did had just as many or more errors and crashes as Fedora. I'm on LMDE right now and Cinnamon crashes 50% of the time I try to change workspaces. It's gotta just be something amazingly wrong with their hardware choices. I've been full-time running Linux on my desktop for over a year and had more issues in an afternoon with my Framework than with a year of that.
ruscurdotau 4y ago
Author here, I wrote this in the hope I wouldn't have to solve my own laptop problems...
- gooseyman 4y ago
  I’d love to read on your blog next “how I debugged the Linux kernel on my Framework laptop.” I have always been so curious about how this actually gets done.
  - ruscurdotau 4y ago
    I tend to debug like a caveman so I don't know if I'm the right person for that - in this case, I just went through config options (make menuconfig) and turned on CONFIG_DRM_I915_DEBUG and a bunch of associated things, then built and booted and played around. Got nothing useful out of that but I didn't spend a huge amount of time diving into the driver. In this case it's pretty different to regular kernel debug because I'm not debugging kernel code itself, I'm trying to glean more information out of hardware that I have no knowledge of, it's not as simple as "there's a bug on line X and I need to find out why this pointer is invalid" etc.

postpawl 4y ago

> objectively incorrect choice of a Ctrl/Fn/Super/Alt layout instead of Fn/Ctrl/Super/Alt That can be switched in bios. I haven’t had any WiFi issues on Ubuntu that require turning it off and back on. The author seems to be using arch.

kramerger 4y ago
I wish we could choose one layout and then keep to it. I mean, I am all open to an EU law here and I'm an not even joking. Update: calm down, I only meant the Fn and Ctrl positions :)
- taeric 4y ago
  I don't know if I want to switch back to qwerty, at this point. :D
- orangepurple 4y ago
  There are only a handful of mainstream keyboard layouts. Mostly ISO and ANSI.
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    > There are only a handful of mainstream keyboard layouts. Mostly ISO and ANSI. You've got to be joking? Not even all my Macs have the same keyboard, let alone looking at Windows laptops.
- Xeamek 4y ago
  That's still bad, at this point there are equally as many ctrl-fn fanatics, as fn-ctrl. Option to adjust them in bios is perfect solution
  - JimBlackwood 4y ago
    Why a BIOS option? I don’t see why laptop keyboards can’t just ship with programmable firmwares. I think ZSA is showing with their Oryx GUI just how easy it can be for an end user.

newaccount2021 4y ago

Why do I have to buy the DIY Edition to get a Linux laptop? I don't want to build a laptop, and I don't want Windows.

halefx 4y ago
Mostly because there is no one "Linux" OS, there are many.
- girvo 4y ago
  Sure. Send me the completed device and I’ll install the OS.
Iridescent_ 4y ago
The "build" part is really just installing the SSD and RAM, which has been extremely easy even as a novice in terms of hardware thanks to how well-built the Framework is + installation manual available online. Do not let the "DIY" part scare you.
- ccooffee 4y ago
  Personally, I found the "DIY" edition to be great. It was REALLY easy (probably took me 10 minutes, but could be done under 2 with practice), and by needing to "assemble" the product myself, I got much more comfortable opening it up. Since getting my OG framework, I've needed to open the case a couple times to clean the keyboard, which isn't something I've ever felt safe doing with previous laptops.
- newaccount2021 4y ago
- MaxLeiter 4y ago
  And the antenna cables...
ruscurdotau 4y ago
My guess is they make a nice margin on those Windows licenses and they figure if you're going to install your own OS you might as well put in your own SSD and RAM. It does suck for consumers though.

Rebelgecko 4y ago

Agree with a lot of these points. It's wild to me that the brightness keys are nonfunctional (unless you sacrifice the ambient light sensor) and there's no ETA on a fix. Random freezes and graphical issues aren't fun either. Another annoyance is weird handling of non-integer scaling on Linux. It's not great on Windows, but I don't need to dig into config files for most apps or use one off launch arguments.

kelvie 4y ago
Yeah, as another fairly technical Framework owner, my experience was basically 100% the same as the author's. Are you on wayland? This is my first wayland experience (if you don't count the Steam Deck), and it was mostly seamless only after upgrading to the latest KDE, which disables scaling for Xwayland programs. Firefox still requires a janky workaround for wayland though, but as I understand it, wayland-based setups depend strongly on what the compositor implements (in my case, Kwin I think).
- noasaservice 4y ago
  That sagging, old Wayland is designed like a garbage scow. I meant to say that it should be hauled away AS garbage!
  - aidenn0 4y ago
    Well sir, this was a matter of pride!
vhodges 4y ago
re: fractional scaling... it seems to work okay in both Cinnamon and Plasma (X11 for both - no experience with Wayland)
kmeisthax 4y ago
I was able to """fix""" the graphical crashes and non-integer scaling problems by... going back to Xorg. :/ Wayland reliably crashes after a day (standby or no), and the resulting crash renders the sound codec hardware inoperable until I unplug the battery. Xorg has had no issues. Well, except for the massive amount of screen tearing.

nikodunk 4y ago

I develop using an 11th gen Framework and have run into none of the issues that this person talked about full-time on Fedora for a year. Must be only the 12th gen that has these issues.

hifikuno 4y ago
I believe he says that his issues stem from the fact he is using a 12th-gen cpu. At the end of the article he mentions trying to get an 11th-gen if you can as that won't have the issues and will be slightly cheaper.
- nikodunk 4y ago
  Ah yes! I did read this but my comment was misleading. Corrected.

skybrian 4y ago

I'm hopeful that the Chromebook edition works out. People who want things to "just work" can run that. By the time Chrome OS support expires, hopefully Linux distros will have pretty polished device support.

yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
It's the same kernel driving the same hardware, why would it be any different?
- skybrian 4y ago
  There are many Linux kernels and user-space stuff can be different.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
    It is my understanding that ChromeOS aggressively tracks mainline Linux. I don't have enough information to tell what the kernel/userspace split on problems is, true.
- bubblethink 4y ago
  It is not necessarily the same hardware. Neither is it the same kernel, nor the same bios/firmware.

pdonis 4y ago

My deal breaker for a Framework laptop is the Intel CPU.

danudey 4y ago
I'll admit that after reading about the train wreck that is Intel's Linux support for their 12th gen platform, my first thought was "ooh, maybe Ryzen frameworks next". The (other) dream would be an Apple M1/M2-comparable ARM CPU, but I don't think those even exist, let alone are feasible for a consumer laptop. Fingers crossed.

eduction 4y ago

The money quote IMO: "I genuinely think the out-of-box experience of the Framework laptop is worse than anything I've ever seen in over a decade of Lenovo laptops. " He does say he likes the laptop and doesn't think the issues he hit with 12th gen Intel should keep you from buying an 11th gen Framework. On the other hand he's been a kernel dev for seven years and had to spend "ages debugging including building my own kernels with additional debugging as well as trying different firmware versions before giving up." He had issues with wifi, power management, brightness control, the GPU, "and my computer is locking up constantly." Oy.

Foxboron 4y ago
Frankly, I got a Lenovo T14 Gen 3, 12th gen Intel. It's the worst laptop I've had in a decade. They spent 6 months fixing an issue where two internal DP ports where visible to the driver which caused the kernel to not survive a suspend. The issue is with the Tigerlake reference design, and a lot of companies will need to push firmware updates to get things sorted out. This is the upstream driver issue: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/intel/-/issues/5531#note_1477044 https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/intel/-/issues/5531#note_... Lenovo forum thread: https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Other-Linux-Discussions/Thinkpad-T16-can-t-resume-from-suspend/m-p/5160642 https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Other-Linux-Discussions/Thinkpa... EDIT: I realized I'm typing this on the 11th gen Framework I own. While the Lenovo laptop is somewhere behind my couch, I think.
- dopeboy 4y ago
  We must live in parallel universes. T15 gen 2 here, works phenomenally on ubuntu 20.04.
  - shallichange 4y ago
    Same here, but I chose the AMD T14. Flawless.
  - Foxboron 4y ago
    You misunderstand. All the Lenovo laptops I've had are flawless. The issue is the 12th gen Intel board which you can select on some models.

abeisgreat 4y ago

My two cents as a Linux based developer - my 11th gen Framework has been largely fantastic. There was some annoying BIOS issues but they pushed a fix, there was bad battery life, but they pushed a fix. Overall it feels like an indie device still, but I’d take that over the mass production walled garden nonsense of competing machines. I feel like I own this device more than any other recent electronic purchases other than perhaps my Raspberry Pis.

GoldenRacer 4y ago
I second this. It definitely has some issues and I wouldn't recommend it just yet for people that aren't willing to tinker with it but at least you can tinker with it and I haven't had a problem yet that I don't think a reasonably competent user couldn't find a workaround for. If that's not your jam, then you should probably wait a bit. I really hope framework is able to get things sorted out so it can be more mainstream but for that to happen, they need early adopters. If you don't mind a bit of tinkering (I've spent maybe 2-3 hours in the 2 months I've owned mine), don't be scared. Before getting mine, I read some stories and was really worried I'd be in over my head and end up regretting a $1400 purchase but as of right now, I'm really thrilled with it. Quick edit: I have a 12th gen if it matters
- warner25 4y ago
  I agree with both of you guys. I've had my 11th gen Framework (DIY running Linux) for a year now, and I'm in love. However, I wouldn't recommend it to the average person. That person should probably just get a cheap Chromebook (not the $999 one sold by Framework), or Surface Pro running Windows S mode that's impossible to break (in software), which runs perfectly out-of-the-box and can go to the Best Buy Geek Squad or Microsoft store whenever they need help. My opinion is that the Framework will never be a mass market product because the average person doesn't want to spend time choosing individual hardware components and taking it apart to swap them when they need a repair or upgrade. I think they should just double-down on serving the niche desktop Linux and tinkerer market.

curt15 4y ago

"There's a lot of "don't blame Framework, blame Intel" sentiment in that thread, and while it's absolutely true that it's a flaw in Intel's driver for Intel's hardware, that doesn't matter a whole lot to someone who's just spent a thousand dollars on a laptop that advertises strong Linux support. Framework is both lifted up and brought down by the many contributing parts of the Linux ecosystem, credit can't only be given for the positives." This. When my Mac has GPU problems, I don't complain to NVIDIA or AMD; I complain to Apple. Since Apple is the final integrator, it has the ultimate responsibility for ensuring that all parts work well together. Similarly, whenever a laptop is advertised by its manufacturer as "linux compatible" or "linux certified", it is their job to ensure that linux actually works out of the box.

caboteria 4y ago
"don't blame Framework, blame Intel" is a false dichotomy: it's OK to blame both at the same time.
- otikik 4y ago
  Indeed. Few things in life are free. Blaming others is free and free of consequences.
- nomel 4y ago
  > it's OK to blame both at the same time. You either do compatibility testing, and frame the marketing around the truth, or you have pissed off customers. There's not really an alternative in the hardware world. The logo on the exterior of the product is who they'll, rightfully, blame.
- pmontra 4y ago
  People usually blame the manufacturer they paid the money to. In this case Framework could have chosen AMD or tested with Linux or stated that Linux is unsupported on 12th gen Intel or... There are so many possibilities.
akvadrako 4y ago
> Advertised strong Linux support ? I looked at framework laptops and as far as I could see there is zero official Linux support. There are some community forums for it, but no warranty if something doesn't work or officially support distributions or anything.

math-dev 4y ago

I just bought a Lenovo laptop and wiped Windows off it / installed Linux for the first time. As largely a newcomer to Linux, it was very smooth. Had some issues getting the wifi to work, but once that got resolved, everything has been super smooth. I must admit there is a bit of a learning curve, i didn’t fully appreciate the differences between the various distributions. Shame that an indie company who is actively selling linux machines, can’t have them working off the bat. That’s unacceptable

pmontra 4y ago
Which Lenovo model did you buy?
willnonya 4y ago
The biggest issues I've had with this on Lenovo laptops have been uefi based. Of course the Lenovo uefi isn't exactly great regardless of your OS choice. System76 is really the only option making both the hardware and maintaining their own Linux distro but then you're still left with a Linux distro...

javajosh 4y ago

Hmm. Maybe the issue is with the factory install process or I lucked out and picked the right distro because I'm super happy, surprisingly so, with Ubuntu 22. It was the first time in a LONG time I've done my own OS install, so I was a little worried, but I made it a relaxing, non-rushed experience making the USB stick on another computer. I've done no tweaking to the OS and its...great. And by great I mean "I don't really think about the OS and sometimes I forget I'm in Ubuntu". Of course, there are some quirks. The thing seems to leak power while suspended - but the work around is to shutdown, since it boots in ~5 seconds anyway! The fingerprint reader on the power button doesn't work, but that's not something I would really use anyway. Snap seems to be broken in ways I don't understand, because it periodically prompts me to do the same thing over and over and never seems to succeed. That seems more like an Ubuntu problem - like, ditch snap, whatever it is.

danudey 4y ago
Did you get the 11th gen or the 12th gen? The 11th gen experience is largely free of issues (after a few BIOS updates), but the 12th gen experience is composed almost entirely of them.
- javajosh 4y ago
  I got perhaps the second or third batch of 11th gen - I didn't realize they had another revision! That really sucks it introduced so many problems.
- burntsushi 4y ago
  The 11th gen is definitely not free of issues. I have an 11th gen, and my Framework takes about 10 seconds to wake from suspend. Yes, I'm using 'deep' sleep: $ cat /sys/power/mem_sleep s2idle [deep] And no I'm not switching to 's2idle' because that results in far greater battery drain. Also, even when in 'deep' suspend mode, there was some pretty significant power drain when I had the HDMI and USB-A expansion cards installed. I "fixed" it by replacing them with USB-C cards. Not a huge deal for my usage pattern, but annoying nonetheless.
  - 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

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RosanaAnaDana 4y ago

Any one here able to offer a comparative on Framework versus System76? I pulled the trigger on a system 76 and I've been disappointed. I really want to support this Linux first movement, but I need something that's a daily driver that just works. Has any one used both?

znpy 4y ago

I guess i dodged a bullet by not getting a framework laptop and getting second hand thinkpad again. Oh well.

vhodges 4y ago

fwiw, I have a 12th Gen running Nix and I don't have any of these problems (well the brightness keys don't work but at least the sound/volume keys do - this is probably a DE issue). Sleep/resume work, but I haven't tried to get hibernate working. I don't use the fingerprint reader. And I am connected pretty much full time to power (I did set the max charge to 60% in the bios) so battery life is not such a deal breaker for me I DID see the stuttering/laggy issue in X11 but the fix I found for that worked like a charm (note I only saw this issue after a few days of playing/switching DEs). Currently running Cinnamon but also tried Plasma and Pantheon. I do wish the palm rejection was better on the touch pad. I have lazy fingers/thumbs that hover over the touch pad and I get a ton of spurious clicks which is driving me crazy.

bionade24 4y ago
Seems more like you do have these problems but they don't matter to you personally.
- vhodges 4y ago
  How so? My machine doesn't lock up at all, no random crashes or freezes. Things work. Now you are correct that there are things I don't use or care about that may or may not work out of the box perfectly out of the box but the tweaks, settings and fixes are getting to be pretty known like power management for better battery life or suspend-then-hibernate. I've been following Frame.work since the beginning and it seems the early days of the 12th Gen seem much smoother than the early days of the 11th Gen.
haradion 4y ago
Your experience with NixOS mirrors mine. I got hibernation working with a little fiddling. Suspend-then-hibernate also mostly works but occasionally turns my laptop sleeve into an Easy-Bake oven, so I've started triggering hibernation manually before I put it away. Plasma's touch pad settings help a bit with the extra clicks, but a little extra palm rejection is something I wouldn't complain about. Pretty happy overall, though.

billfor 4y ago

I have the 12th gen dual booting windows 10 and jellyfish, and have not had any problems with jellyfish other than the issue with the brightness adjustment which has an easy workaround. I read the article quickly but I didn’t see which kernel or os he had an issue with, but 22.04 is fine

prvc 4y ago

>the only thing that's actively annoying me day-to-day is their objectively incorrect choice of a Ctrl/Fn/Super/Alt layout instead of Fn/Ctrl/Super/Alt (and the fan is a little loud). Has anyone managed to shim an actual Thinkpad keyboard with Trackpoint buttons into this yet? That would probably satisfy most.

kiawe_fire 4y ago

I really want to support and try the Framework, but my experience with Intel lately has mirrored this. Poor drivers, weird iGPU issues. Even my last Intel MacBook Pro had some issues. That, plus it’s puzzling to me that perhaps the most viably customizable thing - the keyboard (which the author of this post also calls out) is available in such few configurations. I would love a keyboard with a non-Windows super key, with a FN / Ctrl / Super / Alt layout. Offering an array of layouts isn’t even a viable option on anything else, so this seems like a market they could own.

evilos 4y ago

Framework, I will give you so much money if you release an AMD version. I'm begging you.

javier2 4y ago

Have the freezes been fixed upstream?

JohnTHaller 4y ago

Are there any 12th gen Intel laptops that support Linux well? I was under the impression that 12th gen support on Linux is rough all around.

PaulWaldman 4y ago
It's interesting that Alder Lake was released about a year ago and it is still plagued with stability issues. Are Linux developers able to get their hands on engineering samples from Intel prior to release?
- wmf 4y ago
  Yes, because the developers work at Intel.

mixmastamyk 4y ago

My Dell developer laptop didn't get full support of obscure peripherals for about a year, for very obscure ones for almost five years. It was speaking DCI to a monitor over their Thunderbolt dock, IIRC. I had worked around it with an extra hdmi cable, so never got to enjoy the supposed single-cable detach that was promised. By the time it was fixed and deployed to distributions, I was ready to move on to my new Framework. It's the nature of the beast with Linux. I think expecting Apple level R&D from a startup is unrealistic. Dell I expected a bit more of, but they did acceptably. Remember when wi-fi was a crapshoot!?

willnonya 4y ago
Hardware support is one of the major issues with Linux. When the common retort involes not needing new hardware it's obvious they're missing the point. It's great that Linux works well enough on ancient hardware. The fact that it doesn't work well on newer hardware is itself a problem. Heaven forbid you need to used Intel rst or an lte modem. Just mentioning either if those inevitably triggers a "why would you need those" response.
- mixmastamyk 4y ago
  We make our choices. I'll take late support for obscure hardware over ubiquitous surveillance every day of the week.
  - willnonya 4y ago
    "Late" support. That's easy to say when you're not the one needing to use hardware that Linux doesn't support a decade later. Or the more mainstream features that aren't supported for 3-5 years after they went Mai stream. I'm not a fan of what MS has turned windows into but their surveillance is easier to mitigate than Linux insiting we use hardware from he 90's.

_eht 4y ago

Flimsiest laptop ever, and I’ve owned cheap chrome books…

6figurelenins 4y ago
My Pixelbook Go with a broken plastic hinge would like a word.

jef_leppard 4y ago

I bought a System 76 laptop a few years ago and stuff like this is why I went back to Apple. I was always dealing with one weird thing or another. One day it decides it wont wake from sleep if I have it in clamshell mode, another it decides it can't find my bluetooth peripherals. I finally rage quit when my webcam went down for no reason. I spent 2500 bucks on that thing and gave up on it in less than a year. Meanwhile, I have a 2015 MBP that runs like a champ. My new M1 air goes 2 days without a charge and I never have to think about dumb shit like waking from sleep. Oh and theres the resale value. I can't give away my S76 but I bet you if I put that 2015 MBP up on craigslist, it'll still fetch me a few hundred bucks... When I was a younger man with more free time I would have fought the good fight but these days? I just want my shit to work.

trelane 4y ago
Interesting. That's the polar opposite of my own experience. And I usually put Gentoo on them instead of Pop. They've been rock solid for me since 2013 or so, when I first started with them. And their support has been top notch.
qudat 4y ago
My mbp (2018) is fairly reliable but there have been more than a few occasions where the laptop doesn’t wake from sleep properly. My 11th gen framework has actually been more reliable on that front. My biggest gripes with framework are the battery life and speakers, otherwise arch just worked out of the box for me.

Schnitz 4y ago

TLDR: works worse than a Thinkpad T43 with Ubuntu in 2009… :-(

noasaservice 4y ago

So framework runs the same sort of half-baked gongkai "blame someone else" business that Pine does? Well I'm glad I bought a well supported Dell latitude.

bubblethink 4y ago

From the current crop of laptop manufacturers, I'm most optimistic about Starlabs. They have in-house staff for coreboot development and linux related things, and they have more independence in hardwware design as opposed to being a Clevo reseller.

jeff-davis 4y ago

I'm happy with mine, even though I did notice the brightness keys don't work (but there's a software slider in ubuntu that does the same thing, so I don't really care). Way better than the last two Lenovos I had. Your milage may vary.

bityard 4y ago

I used to be bullish on Intel for laptops because throughout the 2010s they always had excellent ethernet, wifi, and integrated GPU support in Linux. I currently switch between two older-gen Intel laptops (4 and 7 years old) and they both run Linux pretty much flawlessly for everything I need. Suspend/resume works every time, good battery life, external display through a _real_ hardware dock (not USB/Thunderdolt). Right now, I'm scared to upgrade to anything newer just based on the sheer number of problems I keep hearing about laptops that run hot with atrocious battery life, and non-functional or at least unpredictable suspend/resume behavior, and heaven help if you want to use two non-identical displays. For a while there, Linux often had earlier and better support for mainstream hardware than Windows. It's sad to see that trend regressing, I wonder what's causing it. Do AMD-based laptops have any of the power management (battery life) and suspend/resume issues that have plagued recent Intel chipsets?

filmgirlcw 4y ago
> Do AMD-based laptops have any of the power management (battery life) and suspend/resume issues that have plagued recent Intel chipsets? Battery life is better. Suspend/resume stuff is still a problem. And yes, there does seem to have been a regression with Linux support earlier in the hardware lifecycle than Windows. Not sure when it started, but it’s a trend I’ve noticed over the last 3 years or so.
- bubblethink 4y ago
  Most of these sleep/suspend issues are related to deprecation of the old s3 sleep method and migration to the new s0ix sleep stuff for modern standby.

Fire-Dragon-DoL 4y ago

I use linux laptop and what he described is the reason why I buy linux certified laptops. I would send it back if that was the out of the box experience

andreareina 4y ago

What's missing is what distro they're using. I've got a Framework running Pop! and I've got none of the hardware issues the author describes. In fact my biggest issue (aside from battery life and speakers) is that the 22.04 Gnome DE seems to be less capable than my Ubuntu 18.04 work machine: system configuration applets have been simplified to the point of near uselessness, I can no longer make screenshots via hotkey, etc. Oh, and somehow Steam still isn't able to handle hidpi in 2022?

robinduckett 4y ago

I have the full spec Framework laptop, 12th Gen, running the latest Ubuntu. I haven’t found a single issue, apart from the brightness keys. I don’t have any freezing issue at all.

warent 4y ago
Same here. It's the best work machine I've ever had exiting the land of Macbook Pros. BTW, for the brightness keys, this fixed it for me: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32929022 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32929022

6figurelenins 4y ago

I can't speak to Fedora, but Debian stable runs great. Best laptop I've owned, hands down. Caveats: + Wifi needs kernel 5.19 from backports (USB tether your phone to download.). + fprintd (fingerprint) from testing/bookworm. + Brightness keys conflict with the ambient light sensor. + Power optimization fiddling. I found answers for all the above on their forums, day 1. Pleasant surprises: - P-series chip gets out of my way. (U-series battery life sounds nice, but dev tasks can be jarringly slow. YMMV.). - Fan is not distracting at full load Disappointments: - Fractional scaling. Workaround: bump font, icon sizes in desktop settings. - SD card reader consumes ~1W idle. - Speakers could be louder. I believe there's a new module.

eimrine 4y ago

> Brightness keys don't work without disabling a kernel module. Why brightness in every laptop is software controlled? I am so frustrated when every time I press brightness+ or brightness- on my Linux laptop, the desired effect comes after 5-10 seconds just because my CPU is busy by something else. If I have 20 steps of brightness then changing from minimum to maximum or vice versa is never less than a minute.