6 ms·

It appears the consensus is HN is hesitant about the Windows on ARM push. I really want this to succeed. If this gains traction then we should start seeing sup

It appears the consensus is HN is hesitant about the Windows on ARM push. I really want this to succeed. If this gains traction then we should start seeing support for windows laptops on ARM. As a dev who prefers windows but has a m1 MacBook b/c of the battery life I really hope this works out.

detaro 4y ago
There are Windows ARM laptops already, and their existence does a lot to justify that hesitancy.
- Joe_Boogz 4y ago
  Previous laptops and current surface devices do support ARM, but IMO nothing MSFT has put out has been serious. (Looking at you Surface Pro X). This targeted solution correctly identifies the main problem with Windows on ARM. Lack of developer support. Outside of internal MSFT dev support no one has taken Windows/ARM support seriously. I hope these dev kits represent a wider market push that ultimately leads to better Windows laptops on ARM. (Ones that can close to gap with the current MacBook lineups).
  - doublerebel 4y ago
    The new Surface Pro 7 ARM looks serious — it does seem to be the first serious ARM entry, though. Lack of Windows ARM devices for dev really has hamstrung Hololens 2 development — it’s also Windows ARM and there are very few libraries with Windows ARM compatibility. I altered many libraries myself, despite that the documentation was nearly nonexistent.
- pornel 4y ago
  Of course Qualcomm being chronically incapable of making fast CPUs doesn't help, but partly it's just a chicken-egg problem of lack of ARM-optimized Windows software caused by the lack of ARM Windows users. Having a decent devkit may help bring more native ARM software, which may make these underpowered machines struggle less with speed and compatibility.
  - treis 4y ago
    Genuinely asking because I don't know. Is there anything that's better about ARM or is the Apple/TSMC being better than Intel, AMD, Qualcomm, Samsung, et. al.?
    - Cupprum 4y ago
      1 - The instruction set is more interesting because it is smaller. 2 - Arm also implements weak ordering which is type of memory model. It allows instructions to be separated into groups based on whether they affect other instructions. This allows these groups to skip some waiting lines. (Magic). X86 has strong ordering, which can make it slower in specific scenarios.
      - temac 4y ago
        3 - The instruction set is made of fixed length instructions TBH there are various mostly-Apple/TSMC-"exclusive" tricks too, for why their chips are better than the others: A - On Apple Silicon, pages are larger, but not too large B - there are various accelerators leveraged by libraries provided in the OS (or the provided toolchains, etc.) C - Apple got to use the best TSMC process years before the competition. D - TSMC is ahead (I'm curious of what Zen4 will give on laptop, btw) So it's mixed. The ARM ISA probably plays a small role in the perf of Apple Silicon vs. x86 chips, but is probably not the main cause of the perf gap.
    - sethhochberg 4y ago
      Its less about the instruction set and more about the specific implementation choices and market they're competing in. Apple has been doing ARM SoC design for a long time and was an early 64-bit adopter, buys tons of bleeding-edge capacity from fabs, and is willing to design in more expensive features like tons of onboard cache that they can make up on margins in other ways because Apple sells complete devices, while Qualcomm etc are mostly in the business of selling chips. So while there are fundamental differences between x86 and ARM, the bigger differences are more "Apple vs other ARM SoC designers" than something fundamentally different about ARM that Apple takes advantage of.
    - 4y ago
MBCook 4y ago
I’m out of the Windows ecosystem, except one machine at work. I’d love Windows on ARM to work. I love my M1 and would like something comparable. But Apple had the M1 and the ARM PCs seem to be based on iPhone 7 level chips (perceptually). “You can have Intel or ARM. No one buys ARM so there is little software. Windows was ruined on ARM for a long time. Your ARM laptop will be way slower, but it will be cheap because the only ones you can buy are ultra-low spec with terrible components like eMMC storage.” There is absolutely no compelling reason to buy one for any reason and they’re not fixing it. The first MacBook Air was a horrible computer in many ways, but it really excelled in one that mattered to people. These don’t have that one thing that matters. They’re just ‘meh’ computers that don’t run much. MS can’t fix it (without their own chip) and Qualcomm seemingly wont either.
- wyldfire 4y ago
  > Your ARM laptop will be way slower, but it will be cheap because the only ones you can buy are ultra-low spec with terrible components like eMMC storage. It's not clear what you're quoting from. But it's out of date, now. The last generation (or two?) of windows ARM laptops certainly have NVMe storage. And they're not generally cheap (in cost nor components). > MS can’t fix it (without their own chip) and Qualcomm seemingly wont either. Well, launching these laptops without a native Chrome build was a bit of a blunder IMO. That was ~2-3 generations ago and while Google might not ship Chrome for windows-arm64 (last I checked), you can download native binaries of Chromium. IIRC MS does somehow co-brand w/Qualcomm for the SoCs used on the ARM Surface. But I kinda doubt Microsoft will start designing their own.
  - naikrovek 4y ago
    > But I kinda doubt Microsoft will start designing their own. There were job postings a few months back which would indicate you’re wrong, but who knows if those positions were filled, or if the project is still alive internally. We’ll see, I guess.
  - jhickok 4y ago
    MS has been credibly rumored to be designing their own ARM processors for both Azure and the Surface lineup: https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/18/22189450/microsoft-arm-processors-chips-servers-surface-report https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/18/22189450/microsoft-arm-p...
kotaKat 4y ago
Yeah, I'm sitting here shocked at everyone's hate. I took a major leap and bought a Thinkpad X13s, with the same 8cx Gen 3 CPU this thing has. I am beyond impressed at it. Windows 11 on it - while, yes, it's Windows 11 with its own concerns and issues - runs flawlessly. I've been able to run my traditional x86 and x64 workloads - even things like arm64 Tailscale without issues, and I get amazing battery life. I am 100% for this thing. It's value for money in the high-performance ARM Windows rig market. It benches similarly to a ~11th gen i5 and runs the part.
- csdvrx 4y ago
  I love windows and wanted to give it a try, but the lack of OLED option is bothering me. Can you comment about the battery life and the "traditional x86" workloads? Does it use a just-in-time compilation? (I haven't looked at the details yet) Can you dual boot to a Linux arm64 distribution?
  - monocasa 4y ago
    > Does it use a just-in-time compilation? It's a caching JIT that'll squirrel away the translations to use across program invocations, and even shared between different programs in the case of .dlls. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/arm/apps-on-arm-x86-emulation https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/arm/apps-on-arm-x8...
  - trog 4y ago
    > I love windows and wanted to give it a try, but the lack of OLED option is bothering me. My Dell XPS15 has an OLED, fwiw. It's a couple years old now but the latest models still have it (if you buy a 4K screen, anyway).
    - csdvrx 4y ago
      Thanks for the suggestion, but I don't buy dells anymore, too many problems with the BIOS. I'll stick to Lenovo for a while!
- kcb 4y ago
yieldcrv 4y ago
Yeah I want arm windows exclusively so I can install a pirated version on arm bootcamp
Affric 4y ago
Constant length instructions. Chip design that's easier to put things like memory into an SOC. Windows on ARM can only be good for computing.
RachelF 4y ago
Once bitten, twice shy? MS released Windows on ARM with Windows 8. It them abandoned it and the users.
ankurdhama 4y ago
I have seen a lot of comments/discussions about battery life of laptops but my opinion is that laptops are really bad ergonomically for any kind of work that goes beyond few minutes. I always recommend people to attach the laptop to an external monitor, keyboard and mouse. It seems that people do use laptops for doing work on the go and that too for long hours.
- kitsunesoba 4y ago
  I definitely prefer having a dual monitor setup with a proper keyboard and pointing device at my desk, but my 16" MBP is quite serviceable when I want to sit elsewhere in my house for a change or take my work with me. Now for 12"/13"/14" laptops, yes I agree that extended dev work isn't the most practical, but then again I spend most of my day with IDEs and simulators — it's probably a different story for someone who lives in a terminal or spends most of their time writing prose.
- Joe_Boogz 4y ago
  I work remote, if I want to do anything computer related outside of work then it basically *has* to be on a laptop. I just can’t commit to spending more time at my desk for personal projects / etc. An efficient/fast laptop that I can use wherever (coffee shop / GFs house / Parents) is a game changer for me. Every Windows laptop I’ve owned has required to me be tethered to a wall socket after 1-2 hours of use. These MacBooks literally last an entire weekend of moderate - heavy use. It’s truly wild and is an experience that I crave for a windows laptop.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

detaro 4y ago

There are Windows ARM laptops already, and their existence does a lot to justify that hesitancy.

Joe_Boogz 4y ago
Previous laptops and current surface devices do support ARM, but IMO nothing MSFT has put out has been serious. (Looking at you Surface Pro X). This targeted solution correctly identifies the main problem with Windows on ARM. Lack of developer support. Outside of internal MSFT dev support no one has taken Windows/ARM support seriously. I hope these dev kits represent a wider market push that ultimately leads to better Windows laptops on ARM. (Ones that can close to gap with the current MacBook lineups).
- doublerebel 4y ago
  The new Surface Pro 7 ARM looks serious — it does seem to be the first serious ARM entry, though. Lack of Windows ARM devices for dev really has hamstrung Hololens 2 development — it’s also Windows ARM and there are very few libraries with Windows ARM compatibility. I altered many libraries myself, despite that the documentation was nearly nonexistent.
pornel 4y ago
Of course Qualcomm being chronically incapable of making fast CPUs doesn't help, but partly it's just a chicken-egg problem of lack of ARM-optimized Windows software caused by the lack of ARM Windows users. Having a decent devkit may help bring more native ARM software, which may make these underpowered machines struggle less with speed and compatibility.
- treis 4y ago
  Genuinely asking because I don't know. Is there anything that's better about ARM or is the Apple/TSMC being better than Intel, AMD, Qualcomm, Samsung, et. al.?
  - Cupprum 4y ago
    1 - The instruction set is more interesting because it is smaller. 2 - Arm also implements weak ordering which is type of memory model. It allows instructions to be separated into groups based on whether they affect other instructions. This allows these groups to skip some waiting lines. (Magic). X86 has strong ordering, which can make it slower in specific scenarios.
    - temac 4y ago
      3 - The instruction set is made of fixed length instructions TBH there are various mostly-Apple/TSMC-"exclusive" tricks too, for why their chips are better than the others: A - On Apple Silicon, pages are larger, but not too large B - there are various accelerators leveraged by libraries provided in the OS (or the provided toolchains, etc.) C - Apple got to use the best TSMC process years before the competition. D - TSMC is ahead (I'm curious of what Zen4 will give on laptop, btw) So it's mixed. The ARM ISA probably plays a small role in the perf of Apple Silicon vs. x86 chips, but is probably not the main cause of the perf gap.
  - sethhochberg 4y ago
    Its less about the instruction set and more about the specific implementation choices and market they're competing in. Apple has been doing ARM SoC design for a long time and was an early 64-bit adopter, buys tons of bleeding-edge capacity from fabs, and is willing to design in more expensive features like tons of onboard cache that they can make up on margins in other ways because Apple sells complete devices, while Qualcomm etc are mostly in the business of selling chips. So while there are fundamental differences between x86 and ARM, the bigger differences are more "Apple vs other ARM SoC designers" than something fundamentally different about ARM that Apple takes advantage of.
  - 4y ago

MBCook 4y ago

I’m out of the Windows ecosystem, except one machine at work. I’d love Windows on ARM to work. I love my M1 and would like something comparable. But Apple had the M1 and the ARM PCs seem to be based on iPhone 7 level chips (perceptually). “You can have Intel or ARM. No one buys ARM so there is little software. Windows was ruined on ARM for a long time. Your ARM laptop will be way slower, but it will be cheap because the only ones you can buy are ultra-low spec with terrible components like eMMC storage.” There is absolutely no compelling reason to buy one for any reason and they’re not fixing it. The first MacBook Air was a horrible computer in many ways, but it really excelled in one that mattered to people. These don’t have that one thing that matters. They’re just ‘meh’ computers that don’t run much. MS can’t fix it (without their own chip) and Qualcomm seemingly wont either.

wyldfire 4y ago
> Your ARM laptop will be way slower, but it will be cheap because the only ones you can buy are ultra-low spec with terrible components like eMMC storage. It's not clear what you're quoting from. But it's out of date, now. The last generation (or two?) of windows ARM laptops certainly have NVMe storage. And they're not generally cheap (in cost nor components). > MS can’t fix it (without their own chip) and Qualcomm seemingly wont either. Well, launching these laptops without a native Chrome build was a bit of a blunder IMO. That was ~2-3 generations ago and while Google might not ship Chrome for windows-arm64 (last I checked), you can download native binaries of Chromium. IIRC MS does somehow co-brand w/Qualcomm for the SoCs used on the ARM Surface. But I kinda doubt Microsoft will start designing their own.
- naikrovek 4y ago
  > But I kinda doubt Microsoft will start designing their own. There were job postings a few months back which would indicate you’re wrong, but who knows if those positions were filled, or if the project is still alive internally. We’ll see, I guess.
- jhickok 4y ago
  MS has been credibly rumored to be designing their own ARM processors for both Azure and the Surface lineup: https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/18/22189450/microsoft-arm-processors-chips-servers-surface-report https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/18/22189450/microsoft-arm-p...

kotaKat 4y ago

Yeah, I'm sitting here shocked at everyone's hate. I took a major leap and bought a Thinkpad X13s, with the same 8cx Gen 3 CPU this thing has. I am beyond impressed at it. Windows 11 on it - while, yes, it's Windows 11 with its own concerns and issues - runs flawlessly. I've been able to run my traditional x86 and x64 workloads - even things like arm64 Tailscale without issues, and I get amazing battery life. I am 100% for this thing. It's value for money in the high-performance ARM Windows rig market. It benches similarly to a ~11th gen i5 and runs the part.

csdvrx 4y ago
I love windows and wanted to give it a try, but the lack of OLED option is bothering me. Can you comment about the battery life and the "traditional x86" workloads? Does it use a just-in-time compilation? (I haven't looked at the details yet) Can you dual boot to a Linux arm64 distribution?
- monocasa 4y ago
  > Does it use a just-in-time compilation? It's a caching JIT that'll squirrel away the translations to use across program invocations, and even shared between different programs in the case of .dlls. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/arm/apps-on-arm-x86-emulation https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/arm/apps-on-arm-x8...
- trog 4y ago
  > I love windows and wanted to give it a try, but the lack of OLED option is bothering me. My Dell XPS15 has an OLED, fwiw. It's a couple years old now but the latest models still have it (if you buy a 4K screen, anyway).
  - csdvrx 4y ago
    Thanks for the suggestion, but I don't buy dells anymore, too many problems with the BIOS. I'll stick to Lenovo for a while!
kcb 4y ago

yieldcrv 4y ago

Yeah I want arm windows exclusively so I can install a pirated version on arm bootcamp

Affric 4y ago

Constant length instructions. Chip design that's easier to put things like memory into an SOC. Windows on ARM can only be good for computing.

RachelF 4y ago

Once bitten, twice shy? MS released Windows on ARM with Windows 8. It them abandoned it and the users.

ankurdhama 4y ago

I have seen a lot of comments/discussions about battery life of laptops but my opinion is that laptops are really bad ergonomically for any kind of work that goes beyond few minutes. I always recommend people to attach the laptop to an external monitor, keyboard and mouse. It seems that people do use laptops for doing work on the go and that too for long hours.

kitsunesoba 4y ago
I definitely prefer having a dual monitor setup with a proper keyboard and pointing device at my desk, but my 16" MBP is quite serviceable when I want to sit elsewhere in my house for a change or take my work with me. Now for 12"/13"/14" laptops, yes I agree that extended dev work isn't the most practical, but then again I spend most of my day with IDEs and simulators — it's probably a different story for someone who lives in a terminal or spends most of their time writing prose.
Joe_Boogz 4y ago
I work remote, if I want to do anything computer related outside of work then it basically *has* to be on a laptop. I just can’t commit to spending more time at my desk for personal projects / etc. An efficient/fast laptop that I can use wherever (coffee shop / GFs house / Parents) is a game changer for me. Every Windows laptop I’ve owned has required to me be tethered to a wall socket after 1-2 hours of use. These MacBooks literally last an entire weekend of moderate - heavy use. It’s truly wild and is an experience that I crave for a windows laptop.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]