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If anybody's interested, there is a best-guess on why the heck 666 was declared to be the "number of the beast" in ancient scriptures: It's a statement that eac

If anybody's interested, there is a best-guess on why the heck 666 was declared to be the "number of the beast" in ancient scriptures: It's a statement that each one of us is our own worst enemy, as this is the number you can easily make an image of with your left hand. The fact that this was inadvertently recycled into the WP gesture is abysmally hilarious.

adamrezich 4y ago
I would've thought that by 2022 everyone would have finally realized that the "OK hand sign emoji = white supremacist secret hand sign" thing was literally a 4chan troll job. people still don't actually think white supremacists make the "OK" sign with their fingers as some kind of secret signal to each other, do they?
- jaywalk 4y ago
  > people still don't actually think white supremacists make the "OK" sign with their fingers as some kind of secret signal to each other, do they? The only people who ever thought that, though it because the news told them so. Since the news hasn't told them it's not true, they still think it is.
- bena 4y ago
  This is one of those things where fiction becomes truth. While it may have initially started as such, unless you can also prove that every single white supremacist also knew it was a joke, it kind of became a white supremacist hand sign. It's an issue with satire in general. Eventually there will be someone too stupid to see it as satire. And then you get into Schrodinger's racist territory. Being an asshole ironically is still being an asshole.
  - adamrezich 4y ago
    > unless you can also prove that every single white supremacist also knew it was a joke, it kind of became a white supremacist hand sign. 4chan is an anonymous imageboard, anyone can post anything, anyone can "meme" anything into being a "hate symbol". it doesn't seem like a very good idea to allow 4chan trolls to literally dictate societal norms, especially the creation of "hate symbols". at some point one must realize that such "hate symbols" literally only have as much power as you're willing to grant them—so why grant them any?
    - bena 4y ago
      This is kind of a vacuous argument. Once something leaves the confines of 4chan, the origin doesn't matter. The intention behind the action matters. If white supremacists are using it as a signal, it is a de facto white supremacist symbol. And by the way you're trying to move the goalposts, I'd have to say you're from Tennessee. At first your argument was that "it's from 4chan, it was a joke, it didn't count". And now, your argument is "words are powerless unless you give them power". Which, is the sort of aphorism I'd expect from Ricken. Symbols are important because they serve to signal to others what is and is not accepted. Or who are members of your in-group, whatever those groups may be. If I go to a sporting event, I can choose to adorn myself in the symbols of one team or another to indicate support of that team. And that tells complete strangers if I'm inclined to cheer with them or against them. Don't be obtuse.
      - adamrezich 4y ago
        > And by the way you're trying to move the goalposts, I'd have to say you're from Tennessee. > Which, is the sort of aphorism I'd expect from Ricken. dude what are you even talking about you completely lost me > And now, your argument is "words are powerless unless you give them power". when were we talking about words? what?? I think you're having an argument with some kind of Tennessean strawman on accident.
        bena 4y ago
        Tennessee beat Alabama in a recent game and responded by ripping the goalpost out of the ground and crowd surfing it around the field. Ricken is a character from Severance who writes a book of profound sounding nonsense. I addressed why both were relevant. Your argument now is different from your initial argument. And "abstract concepts only have the power we give them" is the kind of pap we feed to others to give ourselves license to keep using shitty abstract concepts.
        adamrezich 4y ago
        uh ok, apologies for not understanding all the cultural references I guess? what portion of people today in 2022 do you think see someone use U+1F44C in electronic communications and immediately think "white supremacist dogwhistle"? obviously there was a bit of a "panic" there a few years back, but hasn't pretty much everyone gotten over it by now? I use it all the time especially as a reaction-emoji in messaging services, and nobody I know (of all faiths & colors) has any issue with it. I used it all the time before, during, and after the 4chan trolling, with the latter being what I consider to be "doing my part" in not letting something so ridiculous actually take hold within my culture, because holy shit how ridiculous can you be, it's the OK sign, I've been making it all my life, I'm not going to stop doing it because some 4chan trolls (correctly, but frustratingly) thought it would be hilarious to convince everyone overnight that it was the Ultra Secret White Supremacist Hand Sign, specifically because it is so widely-used by everyone. so going forward, do we keep pretending like "the ok hand sign" should be "white supremacist dogwhistle", just because there was a brief flash-in-the-pan 4chan trolling about it a few years ago, which a few people are (apparently???) still sensitive about? should what society determines to be "hate symbols" be exclusively dictated by the most sensitive and reactionary people in said society? if that's the rules you want to play by, go for it man, if you need me I'll be over here in Normal World where a man can pinch his index finger and thumb together without being assumed to be a white supremacist. "abstract concepts only have the power we give them" is an absolute truth, which I am actively proving by refusing to give this abstract concept any kind of undesired power, and going out of my way to refuse to cease using said abstract concept in my day-to-day life, due to some ill-defined sense of Internet Moralism trying to exert control over me by preventing me from doing so. it has no power over me or anyone around me whatsoever, and in fact I completely forgot it was even a thing until today lmao
boston_clone 4y ago
I don't think that our current character for 6 is the same as it was when those scriptures were written.
goto11 4y ago
The original scriptures did not use Arabic numerals.
piperswe 4y ago
From what I can tell, the earliest manuscript of Revelation 13:18 (the typical source of "666" being evil) originates from the third century CE in Egypt [1], instead saying "616" is the mark of the beast and using the Greek numerals. The first example of the earliest ancestor to the modern numeral "6" appears in inscriptions in India dating to the same period [2]. I would expect there is no relationship between Revelation and the modern numeral for 6. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_115 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_115 [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edicts_of_Ashoka#Ancestor_of_the_Hindu%E2%80%93Arabic_numeral_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edicts_of_Ashoka#Ancestor_of_t...
jmclnx 4y ago
Actually I listened to a NPR show that said something like 666 was a mis-translation or due to a smudge on an old doc. Supposedly it should be 616. IIRC, they said in Roman Numerals 616 has/had somekind of meaning.

adamrezich 4y ago

I would've thought that by 2022 everyone would have finally realized that the "OK hand sign emoji = white supremacist secret hand sign" thing was literally a 4chan troll job. people still don't actually think white supremacists make the "OK" sign with their fingers as some kind of secret signal to each other, do they?

jaywalk 4y ago
> people still don't actually think white supremacists make the "OK" sign with their fingers as some kind of secret signal to each other, do they? The only people who ever thought that, though it because the news told them so. Since the news hasn't told them it's not true, they still think it is.
bena 4y ago
This is one of those things where fiction becomes truth. While it may have initially started as such, unless you can also prove that every single white supremacist also knew it was a joke, it kind of became a white supremacist hand sign. It's an issue with satire in general. Eventually there will be someone too stupid to see it as satire. And then you get into Schrodinger's racist territory. Being an asshole ironically is still being an asshole.
- adamrezich 4y ago
  > unless you can also prove that every single white supremacist also knew it was a joke, it kind of became a white supremacist hand sign. 4chan is an anonymous imageboard, anyone can post anything, anyone can "meme" anything into being a "hate symbol". it doesn't seem like a very good idea to allow 4chan trolls to literally dictate societal norms, especially the creation of "hate symbols". at some point one must realize that such "hate symbols" literally only have as much power as you're willing to grant them—so why grant them any?
  - bena 4y ago
    This is kind of a vacuous argument. Once something leaves the confines of 4chan, the origin doesn't matter. The intention behind the action matters. If white supremacists are using it as a signal, it is a de facto white supremacist symbol. And by the way you're trying to move the goalposts, I'd have to say you're from Tennessee. At first your argument was that "it's from 4chan, it was a joke, it didn't count". And now, your argument is "words are powerless unless you give them power". Which, is the sort of aphorism I'd expect from Ricken. Symbols are important because they serve to signal to others what is and is not accepted. Or who are members of your in-group, whatever those groups may be. If I go to a sporting event, I can choose to adorn myself in the symbols of one team or another to indicate support of that team. And that tells complete strangers if I'm inclined to cheer with them or against them. Don't be obtuse.
    - adamrezich 4y ago
      > And by the way you're trying to move the goalposts, I'd have to say you're from Tennessee. > Which, is the sort of aphorism I'd expect from Ricken. dude what are you even talking about you completely lost me > And now, your argument is "words are powerless unless you give them power". when were we talking about words? what?? I think you're having an argument with some kind of Tennessean strawman on accident.
      - bena 4y ago
        Tennessee beat Alabama in a recent game and responded by ripping the goalpost out of the ground and crowd surfing it around the field. Ricken is a character from Severance who writes a book of profound sounding nonsense. I addressed why both were relevant. Your argument now is different from your initial argument. And "abstract concepts only have the power we give them" is the kind of pap we feed to others to give ourselves license to keep using shitty abstract concepts.
        adamrezich 4y ago
        uh ok, apologies for not understanding all the cultural references I guess? what portion of people today in 2022 do you think see someone use U+1F44C in electronic communications and immediately think "white supremacist dogwhistle"? obviously there was a bit of a "panic" there a few years back, but hasn't pretty much everyone gotten over it by now? I use it all the time especially as a reaction-emoji in messaging services, and nobody I know (of all faiths & colors) has any issue with it. I used it all the time before, during, and after the 4chan trolling, with the latter being what I consider to be "doing my part" in not letting something so ridiculous actually take hold within my culture, because holy shit how ridiculous can you be, it's the OK sign, I've been making it all my life, I'm not going to stop doing it because some 4chan trolls (correctly, but frustratingly) thought it would be hilarious to convince everyone overnight that it was the Ultra Secret White Supremacist Hand Sign, specifically because it is so widely-used by everyone. so going forward, do we keep pretending like "the ok hand sign" should be "white supremacist dogwhistle", just because there was a brief flash-in-the-pan 4chan trolling about it a few years ago, which a few people are (apparently???) still sensitive about? should what society determines to be "hate symbols" be exclusively dictated by the most sensitive and reactionary people in said society? if that's the rules you want to play by, go for it man, if you need me I'll be over here in Normal World where a man can pinch his index finger and thumb together without being assumed to be a white supremacist. "abstract concepts only have the power we give them" is an absolute truth, which I am actively proving by refusing to give this abstract concept any kind of undesired power, and going out of my way to refuse to cease using said abstract concept in my day-to-day life, due to some ill-defined sense of Internet Moralism trying to exert control over me by preventing me from doing so. it has no power over me or anyone around me whatsoever, and in fact I completely forgot it was even a thing until today lmao

boston_clone 4y ago

I don't think that our current character for 6 is the same as it was when those scriptures were written.

goto11 4y ago

The original scriptures did not use Arabic numerals.

piperswe 4y ago

From what I can tell, the earliest manuscript of Revelation 13:18 (the typical source of "666" being evil) originates from the third century CE in Egypt [1], instead saying "616" is the mark of the beast and using the Greek numerals. The first example of the earliest ancestor to the modern numeral "6" appears in inscriptions in India dating to the same period [2]. I would expect there is no relationship between Revelation and the modern numeral for 6. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_115 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_115 [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edicts_of_Ashoka#Ancestor_of_the_Hindu%E2%80%93Arabic_numeral_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edicts_of_Ashoka#Ancestor_of_t...

jmclnx 4y ago

Actually I listened to a NPR show that said something like 666 was a mis-translation or due to a smudge on an old doc. Supposedly it should be 616. IIRC, they said in Roman Numerals 616 has/had somekind of meaning.