5 ms·

My friend figured out for herself, when she was in her 30's, that she's a poor methylator who can't turn the food fortification folic acid into a usable form of

My friend figured out for herself, when she was in her 30's, that she's a poor methylator who can't turn the food fortification folic acid into a usable form of Vitamin B-9. She once told me that adding L-Methylfolate to her routine was like flipping a switch from "depressed" to "not-depressed". But the doctors had already decided she was being "stabilized" by the anti-psychotic prescriptions they forced on her, so they just added this vitamin to their cocktail of prescriptions. Vitamin B-9 has to do with DNA synthesis... My source for physiology told me that even the mutants get enough Vitamin B-9 from an adequate diet, it's just poor methylators who rely on fortified food who are screwed. Deplin is the prescription form of Vitamin B-9. It's approved as an add-on therapy, for when patients don't respond well to the prescriptions that never work. Usually 'mental health' diagnoses are manifestations of stress: emotional stress is the big one, but malnourishment is often a factor too. Stressed brains use more energy thinking about the stress all the time. ECT should be retired from use. I heard once that brain damage causes the brain to increase production of the steroid allopregnanolone. The beneficial effect of the SSRI's seem to also be related to increased allopregnanolone, NOT to boosting serotonin levels. I wonder if my friend's guardian [0] could consent to her getting electrocuted. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33307982 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33307982 Edit: She remembers being depressed for as far back as her memories go. Someone on twitter says food fortification didn't really take off until the 1980's. Before then you had to explicitly buy "wonder bread" to get fortified flour, now you can basically assume white flour is fortified white flour.

chrsig 4y ago
> But the doctors had already decided she was being "stabilized" by the anti-psychotic prescriptions they forced on her, so they just added this vitamin to their cocktail of prescriptions. Outside of very specific circumstances during hospitalization, doctors can't actually force you to take any medication.
- kortex 4y ago
  Ehhhhhh depends a lot on the circumstances and the hospital/center. In theory, yeah, in practice, it's a lot harder for patients to refuse treatment, for one reason or another.
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  I think "my friend's guardian" suggests this person was not fully emancipated for some reason. Doctor strongly suggests it to the legal guardian and the legal guardian requires it could be summed up as "the doctor forced it"
- tcj_phx 4y ago
  Most states have provisions for involuntary mental health treatment. Arizona's laws for forced mental health treatment are in ARS Title 36, Chapter 5: https://www.azleg.gov/arsDetail/?title=36 https://www.azleg.gov/arsDetail/?title=36 As soon as the doctors got their order for involuntary treatment in November 2015, they cornered my friend and injected her with a time-release version of haloperidol, then released her to her mother's house. A day and a half later her mom called the psychiatrists, who said to take my friend to a real ER. My friend told the real doctors at the real ER that she was NOT suicidal. She told me how the haloperidol had 'hit her like a truck', and she tried everything she could think of to counteract the agony: alcohol, cocaine, heroin, dextromethorphan (aka cough syrup), etc. All the anti-dopamine drugs are terrible. Some of the second-generation drugs that are forced on people are much worse than plain old haloperidol. The poor doctors are just implementing their training. Tragic. My observation is that agony-inducing drugs are not actually helpful for substance abuse.
  - operator-name 4y ago
    That sounds like a horrible experience, and I hope you friend is being treated better now. To be charitable and more specific, If you are stable enough there's nothing technically stopping you from not taking prescribed medication and self medicating - as long as you remain stable enough to not warrant involuntary treatment. The obvious risk is if your prescribed medication (or a combination of prescribed and self prescribed medication) is making an impact, you could get worse. From this comment it sounds like there's a lot you're leaving out of this story, but I'd like like be caucious of making generalising statements from specific personally related scenarios.
    - tcj_phx 4y ago
      > From this comment it sounds like there's a lot you're leaving out of this story There's more than can be covered in a little comment. I have the psychiatrists' September 2015 affidavits, filed in support of their petition for involuntary treatment. They say, essentially, "patient expects us to believe she was psychotic because she was drinking 2 bottles of liquor a day, and using cocaine. We know this is not the case because we previously got her 'stabilized' in 2008 and 2010 on haloperidol. She obviously does not appreciate that she is broken and requires anti-psychotics for the rest of her life." My videos from August 2015 prove that she was actually fine before she ran out of alcohol, and that whatever deterioration the doctors think they're treating is entirely caused by palliative psychiatric drugs.
- heavyset_go 4y ago
  Florida has laws on the books that let anyone go to a judge to get an order for forced treatment of someone else for mental illness or addiction. With the Marchman Act, non-compliance with treatment can have legal consequences, as well. From here[1]: > What happens if the respondent isn’t compliant with the treatment order? > It’s up to the judge but the idea is that non-compliance with a court order equates to contempt of court and is punishable by jail time. This is where the “teeth” or consequences are introduced for someone refusing to comply with the treatment plan. However, we have found that many counties do not enforce treatment orders with jail time. When the option is to be compliant with treatment or be held in contempt of court, that sounds like force. [1] https://marchmanactflorida.com/faq/ https://marchmanactflorida.com/faq/
IIAOPSW 4y ago
Technically, its only electrocution if she dies. Otherwise its an electroshock. The consent of your friends guardian to either the former, the latter, or both is not within my ability to say.
- alasdair_ 4y ago
  It depends which dictionary you are reading. Many of them say things like “to injure or kill with an electric shock”
spangry 4y ago
> ECT should be retired from use. I heard once that brain damage causes the brain to increase production of the steroid allopregnanolone. The beneficial effect of the SSRI's seem to also be related to increased allopregnanolone, NOT to boosting serotonin levels. That's a fascinating insight. Recent medical research implicates neuroinflammation in the pathogenesis of depression [0][1]. Steroids generally have anti-inflammatory properties. Allopregnanolone specifically has anti-neuroinflammatory effects [2][3]. It's amazing, inflammation appears to be implicated in all manner of diseases and conditions. [0] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/ejn.14720 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/ejn.14720 [1] https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fncel.2021.691067/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fncel.2021.6910... [2] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091302219300500 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S009130221... [3] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352289519300554 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S235228951...
- elcritch 4y ago
  There's studies from the 80's & 90's showing direct destruction of neurons in mice and chimpanzees with depression like symptoms. Depression it seems literally eats away at the brain, at least in mammals, likely due to inflammation. What's perplexed me is why this mechanism would occur in evolutionary terms, or if it's really just a byproduct.
  - spangry 4y ago
    Did those studies show a causal direction of depression causing neural destruction? My current notion is that the causality is reversed - chronic oxidative stress and neuroinflammation cause physical damage to the brain, which results in depression-like symptoms (e.g. low mood, poor memory, loss of motivation etc.). If this turns out to be correct, then there is a clear physiological cause of depression which can be cured through neuro anti-inflammatory and antioxidant medication.
    - tcj_phx 4y ago
      Omega-6 oils are the foundation of the body's inflammatory response: more Omega-6 -> more inflammation (prostaglandins are made from Omega 6 [0]). My friend was eating an Omega-6 heavy diet. Omega 6 can't be diluted with Omega-3, the only way to fix the problem is to reduce all polyunsaturated oil consumption. My breakthrough 'intervention' was frying whole wheat donuts in coconut oil. Coconut oil is brain food for alcoholics. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostaglandin#Biosynthesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostaglandin#Biosynthesis
ddxxdd 4y ago
Interesting information... it prompted me to do more research. According to wikipedia, Vitamin B-9 is broken down by our bodies into a family of compounds called "THF", which: 1. Help synthesize DNA, 2. Help repair/modify DNA, 3. Help create the amino acid "Methionine", which is a precursor to other amino acids, and is thus important for the synthesis of many proteins inside the body, 4. Activate Vitamin B12. A deficiency in Vitamin B-9 can lead to a loss of appetite, weakness, heart palpitations, headaches, irritability, and anemia. Also interesting to note that a deficiency in Vitamin B-12 will cause the body to overcompensate and convert a large portion of Vitamin B-9 into the form that metabolizes Vitamin B12, which leads to a condition that mimics a deficiency of Vitamin B9. One of these days, when I have enough free time, I want to develop a particle-level simulation of the human body, so that medical students, doctors, and curious laymen can see these processes in action on their personal computers. If I combine that with an affordable at-home blood test/diagnostic system, we will have a mechanism to bring affordable healthcare to every single person in the country. And perhaps a reliable method to find the true cause of a patient's depression, before prescribing them SSRI's or other psychiatric drugs.
- trentgreene 4y ago
  If you ever want someone else to work with you on that, I atleast would be very interested
  - ivoras 4y ago
    ... and my axe!
- heavyset_go 4y ago
  The compound is a key product in the methionine cycle[1], which is responsible for synthesizing neurotransmitters like serotonin. Poor methylation in this cycle can reduce synthesis of rate-limiting compounds in the cycle, thus limiting production of neurotransmitters, perhaps inducing symptoms of mental illness. Another product in this cycle is SAMe (S−adenosyl methionine), which has been marketed for decades as supplement for improving depression. [1] https://www.creative-proteomics.com/services/methionine-cycle-analysis-service.htm https://www.creative-proteomics.com/services/methionine-cycl...
operator-name 4y ago
I find your conclusions from this specific scenario extremely dangerous and would warn others against generalising too far. I have reason to be in no doubt at the issues with mental health diagnosis, but speculating and generalisation is not useful. To cite this, and the medical consensus of professionals and other studies: > Meaning: Although ECT may be more efficacious than ketamine in the acute phase, _treatment options should be individualized and patient-centered, considering different adverse effect profiles and patient preferences._ (emphasis mine)
- tcj_phx 4y ago
  My goal was to point out that neither ECT nor Ketamine will help if a person is a poor methylator who is malnourished on account of their consumption of folic acid.

chrsig 4y ago

> But the doctors had already decided she was being "stabilized" by the anti-psychotic prescriptions they forced on her, so they just added this vitamin to their cocktail of prescriptions. Outside of very specific circumstances during hospitalization, doctors can't actually force you to take any medication.

kortex 4y ago
Ehhhhhh depends a lot on the circumstances and the hospital/center. In theory, yeah, in practice, it's a lot harder for patients to refuse treatment, for one reason or another.
MichaelCollins 4y ago
I think "my friend's guardian" suggests this person was not fully emancipated for some reason. Doctor strongly suggests it to the legal guardian and the legal guardian requires it could be summed up as "the doctor forced it"
tcj_phx 4y ago
Most states have provisions for involuntary mental health treatment. Arizona's laws for forced mental health treatment are in ARS Title 36, Chapter 5: https://www.azleg.gov/arsDetail/?title=36 https://www.azleg.gov/arsDetail/?title=36 As soon as the doctors got their order for involuntary treatment in November 2015, they cornered my friend and injected her with a time-release version of haloperidol, then released her to her mother's house. A day and a half later her mom called the psychiatrists, who said to take my friend to a real ER. My friend told the real doctors at the real ER that she was NOT suicidal. She told me how the haloperidol had 'hit her like a truck', and she tried everything she could think of to counteract the agony: alcohol, cocaine, heroin, dextromethorphan (aka cough syrup), etc. All the anti-dopamine drugs are terrible. Some of the second-generation drugs that are forced on people are much worse than plain old haloperidol. The poor doctors are just implementing their training. Tragic. My observation is that agony-inducing drugs are not actually helpful for substance abuse.
- operator-name 4y ago
  That sounds like a horrible experience, and I hope you friend is being treated better now. To be charitable and more specific, If you are stable enough there's nothing technically stopping you from not taking prescribed medication and self medicating - as long as you remain stable enough to not warrant involuntary treatment. The obvious risk is if your prescribed medication (or a combination of prescribed and self prescribed medication) is making an impact, you could get worse. From this comment it sounds like there's a lot you're leaving out of this story, but I'd like like be caucious of making generalising statements from specific personally related scenarios.
  - tcj_phx 4y ago
    > From this comment it sounds like there's a lot you're leaving out of this story There's more than can be covered in a little comment. I have the psychiatrists' September 2015 affidavits, filed in support of their petition for involuntary treatment. They say, essentially, "patient expects us to believe she was psychotic because she was drinking 2 bottles of liquor a day, and using cocaine. We know this is not the case because we previously got her 'stabilized' in 2008 and 2010 on haloperidol. She obviously does not appreciate that she is broken and requires anti-psychotics for the rest of her life." My videos from August 2015 prove that she was actually fine before she ran out of alcohol, and that whatever deterioration the doctors think they're treating is entirely caused by palliative psychiatric drugs.
heavyset_go 4y ago
Florida has laws on the books that let anyone go to a judge to get an order for forced treatment of someone else for mental illness or addiction. With the Marchman Act, non-compliance with treatment can have legal consequences, as well. From here[1]: > What happens if the respondent isn’t compliant with the treatment order? > It’s up to the judge but the idea is that non-compliance with a court order equates to contempt of court and is punishable by jail time. This is where the “teeth” or consequences are introduced for someone refusing to comply with the treatment plan. However, we have found that many counties do not enforce treatment orders with jail time. When the option is to be compliant with treatment or be held in contempt of court, that sounds like force. [1] https://marchmanactflorida.com/faq/ https://marchmanactflorida.com/faq/

IIAOPSW 4y ago

Technically, its only electrocution if she dies. Otherwise its an electroshock. The consent of your friends guardian to either the former, the latter, or both is not within my ability to say.

alasdair_ 4y ago
It depends which dictionary you are reading. Many of them say things like “to injure or kill with an electric shock”

spangry 4y ago

> ECT should be retired from use. I heard once that brain damage causes the brain to increase production of the steroid allopregnanolone. The beneficial effect of the SSRI's seem to also be related to increased allopregnanolone, NOT to boosting serotonin levels. That's a fascinating insight. Recent medical research implicates neuroinflammation in the pathogenesis of depression [0][1]. Steroids generally have anti-inflammatory properties. Allopregnanolone specifically has anti-neuroinflammatory effects [2][3]. It's amazing, inflammation appears to be implicated in all manner of diseases and conditions. [0] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/ejn.14720 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/ejn.14720 [1] https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fncel.2021.691067/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fncel.2021.6910... [2] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091302219300500 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S009130221... [3] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352289519300554 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S235228951...

elcritch 4y ago
There's studies from the 80's & 90's showing direct destruction of neurons in mice and chimpanzees with depression like symptoms. Depression it seems literally eats away at the brain, at least in mammals, likely due to inflammation. What's perplexed me is why this mechanism would occur in evolutionary terms, or if it's really just a byproduct.
- spangry 4y ago
  Did those studies show a causal direction of depression causing neural destruction? My current notion is that the causality is reversed - chronic oxidative stress and neuroinflammation cause physical damage to the brain, which results in depression-like symptoms (e.g. low mood, poor memory, loss of motivation etc.). If this turns out to be correct, then there is a clear physiological cause of depression which can be cured through neuro anti-inflammatory and antioxidant medication.
  - tcj_phx 4y ago
    Omega-6 oils are the foundation of the body's inflammatory response: more Omega-6 -> more inflammation (prostaglandins are made from Omega 6 [0]). My friend was eating an Omega-6 heavy diet. Omega 6 can't be diluted with Omega-3, the only way to fix the problem is to reduce all polyunsaturated oil consumption. My breakthrough 'intervention' was frying whole wheat donuts in coconut oil. Coconut oil is brain food for alcoholics. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostaglandin#Biosynthesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostaglandin#Biosynthesis

ddxxdd 4y ago

Interesting information... it prompted me to do more research. According to wikipedia, Vitamin B-9 is broken down by our bodies into a family of compounds called "THF", which: 1. Help synthesize DNA, 2. Help repair/modify DNA, 3. Help create the amino acid "Methionine", which is a precursor to other amino acids, and is thus important for the synthesis of many proteins inside the body, 4. Activate Vitamin B12. A deficiency in Vitamin B-9 can lead to a loss of appetite, weakness, heart palpitations, headaches, irritability, and anemia. Also interesting to note that a deficiency in Vitamin B-12 will cause the body to overcompensate and convert a large portion of Vitamin B-9 into the form that metabolizes Vitamin B12, which leads to a condition that mimics a deficiency of Vitamin B9. One of these days, when I have enough free time, I want to develop a particle-level simulation of the human body, so that medical students, doctors, and curious laymen can see these processes in action on their personal computers. If I combine that with an affordable at-home blood test/diagnostic system, we will have a mechanism to bring affordable healthcare to every single person in the country. And perhaps a reliable method to find the true cause of a patient's depression, before prescribing them SSRI's or other psychiatric drugs.

trentgreene 4y ago
If you ever want someone else to work with you on that, I atleast would be very interested
- ivoras 4y ago
  ... and my axe!
heavyset_go 4y ago
The compound is a key product in the methionine cycle[1], which is responsible for synthesizing neurotransmitters like serotonin. Poor methylation in this cycle can reduce synthesis of rate-limiting compounds in the cycle, thus limiting production of neurotransmitters, perhaps inducing symptoms of mental illness. Another product in this cycle is SAMe (S−adenosyl methionine), which has been marketed for decades as supplement for improving depression. [1] https://www.creative-proteomics.com/services/methionine-cycle-analysis-service.htm https://www.creative-proteomics.com/services/methionine-cycl...

operator-name 4y ago

I find your conclusions from this specific scenario extremely dangerous and would warn others against generalising too far. I have reason to be in no doubt at the issues with mental health diagnosis, but speculating and generalisation is not useful. To cite this, and the medical consensus of professionals and other studies: > Meaning: Although ECT may be more efficacious than ketamine in the acute phase, _treatment options should be individualized and patient-centered, considering different adverse effect profiles and patient preferences._ (emphasis mine)

tcj_phx 4y ago
My goal was to point out that neither ECT nor Ketamine will help if a person is a poor methylator who is malnourished on account of their consumption of folic acid.