4 ms·

Prisoners should be paid for labor at the same rate as they would be paid outside of prison. The punishment is loss of freedom, not forced labor.

throwawaysleep 4y ago
Sure, but then jack up the fines to account for the cost of keeping them.
- Dylan16807 4y ago
  I don't think it's reasonable to fine someone for the cost of imprisoning them. Taking 30% of wages for housing and some for food, maybe. But not a fine.
stachetoverlord 4y ago
Should they not also pay for their food and housing, then?
- snake_doc 4y ago
  Most prisoners are charged a per-diem for food and housing. https://www.npr.org/2022/03/04/1084452251/the-vast-majority-of-states-allow-people-to-be-charged-for-time-behind-bars https://www.npr.org/2022/03/04/1084452251/the-vast-majority-...
therealdrag0 4y ago
I think charging the same rate for labor makes sense so it’s not anti competitive business. But why should the prisoners pocket all the money when our tax dollars are housing them?
- erikpukinskis 4y ago
  Sure, as long as it’s a reasonable rate for what they’re getting. I wouldn’t pay more than $300/mo to live in a tiny concrete room with shitty cafeteria food and no visitors. Maybe less.
  - therealdrag0 4y ago
    Lol that’s the daily cost per prisoner :)
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  Because they have no option to tell their landlord to fuck off and go somewhere else.
- newaccount74 4y ago
  Prisoners did not choose to go to prison, therefore we can't ask them to pay for the costs of putting them in prison. Society decides that it is best to lock some people up; therefore it's also the society that should to pay the cost of keeping them locked up. Prisons are expensive, which is one reason why we should really only lock up people when there is no other way. If someone is not a danger to society, we shouldn't lock them up.
  - therealdrag0 4y ago
    I see your point. Seems pretty subjective either way. For example, “I didn’t choose for my car to be towed so the cost should be paid by the tower.” But to some extent maybe it’s moot because most prisoners would never be able to cover the full cost of their stay. I wonder though if there was a sort of coding-bootcamp-like profit sharing model with inmates where the gov tried to maximize their economic productivity they might end up getting trained for better and more humane jobs, trades, nursing, coding, winwin.
  - dchftcs 4y ago
    Um, you make it sound like prisoners are just helpless beings that have no agency and are fully passively pushed into a situation. Society didn't ask the prisoners to commit crimes either, but they (mostly) did anyway. Society has no choice but to impose a very unproductive form of punishment, and needs to find a way to get something out of it. The main reason to be against prison labor is that it creates perverse incentives to not rehabilitate prisoners (even though participation in labor may help with the rehabilitation process). There's also a risk that cheap prison labor undercuts legitimate businesses. Prisoners also can't be entrusted with anything outside menial and low-impact labor, and as a result the amount of productivity they can offer is really limited. But requiring prisoners to work partially for their own food and shelter in itself shouldn't be that controversial, especially when they are convicted of serious crime.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      So which society are you living in? Every statistic shows that minorities get much harsher sentences, are represented by an underfunded public defenders office, are coerced to plea bargain (95%) are harassed more by police etc. The entire criminal Justice system is corrupt to the core. Let’s not even talk about the “War on drugs” that becomes “treat drug abuse as a medical condition” when it happens in “rural communities”
colechristensen 4y ago
I’m saying I’m fine with forced labor being part of the consequences. Like if you steal a car, six months working a shitty job while locked in prison seems appropriate. The money shouldn’t go to you, it should go to defer the cost of catching, prosecuting, and housing you. We even have “community service” which is literally forced labor for zero compensation, are people unhappy with that?
- socialismisok 4y ago
  Community service typically doesn't also come with loss of liberty. As someone who has been sentenced to community service but got to stay out of incarceration because of a stupid teenager move, it's effectively a different punishment.

throwawaysleep 4y ago

Sure, but then jack up the fines to account for the cost of keeping them.

Dylan16807 4y ago
I don't think it's reasonable to fine someone for the cost of imprisoning them. Taking 30% of wages for housing and some for food, maybe. But not a fine.

stachetoverlord 4y ago

Should they not also pay for their food and housing, then?

snake_doc 4y ago
Most prisoners are charged a per-diem for food and housing. https://www.npr.org/2022/03/04/1084452251/the-vast-majority-of-states-allow-people-to-be-charged-for-time-behind-bars https://www.npr.org/2022/03/04/1084452251/the-vast-majority-...

therealdrag0 4y ago

I think charging the same rate for labor makes sense so it’s not anti competitive business. But why should the prisoners pocket all the money when our tax dollars are housing them?

erikpukinskis 4y ago
Sure, as long as it’s a reasonable rate for what they’re getting. I wouldn’t pay more than $300/mo to live in a tiny concrete room with shitty cafeteria food and no visitors. Maybe less.
- therealdrag0 4y ago
  Lol that’s the daily cost per prisoner :)
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
s1artibartfast 4y ago
Because they have no option to tell their landlord to fuck off and go somewhere else.
newaccount74 4y ago
Prisoners did not choose to go to prison, therefore we can't ask them to pay for the costs of putting them in prison. Society decides that it is best to lock some people up; therefore it's also the society that should to pay the cost of keeping them locked up. Prisons are expensive, which is one reason why we should really only lock up people when there is no other way. If someone is not a danger to society, we shouldn't lock them up.
- therealdrag0 4y ago
  I see your point. Seems pretty subjective either way. For example, “I didn’t choose for my car to be towed so the cost should be paid by the tower.” But to some extent maybe it’s moot because most prisoners would never be able to cover the full cost of their stay. I wonder though if there was a sort of coding-bootcamp-like profit sharing model with inmates where the gov tried to maximize their economic productivity they might end up getting trained for better and more humane jobs, trades, nursing, coding, winwin.
- dchftcs 4y ago
  Um, you make it sound like prisoners are just helpless beings that have no agency and are fully passively pushed into a situation. Society didn't ask the prisoners to commit crimes either, but they (mostly) did anyway. Society has no choice but to impose a very unproductive form of punishment, and needs to find a way to get something out of it. The main reason to be against prison labor is that it creates perverse incentives to not rehabilitate prisoners (even though participation in labor may help with the rehabilitation process). There's also a risk that cheap prison labor undercuts legitimate businesses. Prisoners also can't be entrusted with anything outside menial and low-impact labor, and as a result the amount of productivity they can offer is really limited. But requiring prisoners to work partially for their own food and shelter in itself shouldn't be that controversial, especially when they are convicted of serious crime.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    So which society are you living in? Every statistic shows that minorities get much harsher sentences, are represented by an underfunded public defenders office, are coerced to plea bargain (95%) are harassed more by police etc. The entire criminal Justice system is corrupt to the core. Let’s not even talk about the “War on drugs” that becomes “treat drug abuse as a medical condition” when it happens in “rural communities”

colechristensen 4y ago

I’m saying I’m fine with forced labor being part of the consequences. Like if you steal a car, six months working a shitty job while locked in prison seems appropriate. The money shouldn’t go to you, it should go to defer the cost of catching, prosecuting, and housing you. We even have “community service” which is literally forced labor for zero compensation, are people unhappy with that?

socialismisok 4y ago
Community service typically doesn't also come with loss of liberty. As someone who has been sentenced to community service but got to stay out of incarceration because of a stupid teenager move, it's effectively a different punishment.