7 ms·

Maybe I'm in a bubble, but every anecdote I read online in the past year or two is someone royally fed up with liberal politics. On Twitter, Reddit, and real li

Maybe I'm in a bubble, but every anecdote I read online in the past year or two is someone royally fed up with liberal politics. On Twitter, Reddit, and real life, the majority of people keep complaining about crime, drugs, homelessness. Sounds like a perfect environment for a generation of conservatives to get elected. Hopefully they stay close to the center for a long time.

JadeNB 4y ago
> Sounds like a perfect environment for a generation of conservatives to get elected. Hopefully they stay close to the center for a long time. The conservative groundswell is because generations of conservatives have already been getting elected, especially in less flashy positions that wield influence. Conservatives have really played the long game, at least since the New Deal.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- D13Fd 4y ago
  I think people’s need to frame seemingly every issue and even their entire worldview as liberal vs conservative is the biggest problem in politics.
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago
    I agree, I think it blinds people to the sort of problem that user macrolocal mentions in a nearby comment, rising illiberalism among both 'liberals' (more accurately called progressives, but this terminology is all twisted in America..) and conservatives. I'm concerned that both use the other to justify or rationalize their own declining liberalism.
  - thegrimmest 4y ago
    I think many things can be framed as "change things" or "leave them".
    - MichaelCollins 4y ago
      "change things" vs "change things but ostensibly back to the way they were before". For instance, ruling against Roe v. Wade. Regardless of what you think of that, it, such a ruling was a deviation from the status quo. It was "changing things" as surely as the original ruling changed things.
      - thegrimmest 4y ago
        Sure, or "we made a mistake changing things, let's put them back". It just depends on the timescales you consider when determining the status quo.
        MichaelCollins 4y ago
        Putting things back where they were depends on our recollection of the past, which is imperfect and subject to various biases and confusion with myth. But even ignoring that, the circumstances of the present are different than the circumstances of the past so past laws won't work the same in the present as they did in the past. Even if you could perfectly replicate past laws in the present, you couldn't get the same effect out of those laws because the inputs (the state of society) have changed. Nobody can roll back the clock. What conservatives actually do in fact is propose ways to change things going into the future.
        thegrimmest 4y ago
        > depends on our recollection of the past, which is imperfect We do have pretty good records to help us sort it out, especially for recent history. > the circumstances of the present are different than the circumstances of the past Surely some circumstances, such as human nature and social biology, have not changed. I'm not sure that "the state of society" is the primary differentiating factor in the effectiveness of laws, particularly laws relating to fundamental human behaviours like violence or reproduction.
        4y ago
  - JadeNB 4y ago
    > I think people’s need to frame seemingly every issue and even their entire worldview as liberal vs conservative is the biggest problem in politics. I don't know if that was addressed to me for speaking of conservative political movements or to the conservatives, but it is not a label that I pin on an unwilling recipient; I am referring to a self-described conservative movement.
  - themitigating 4y ago
    You know what trick I love? When someone points out something Democrats did and they say "that's why I'm conservative" then when you point out something Republicans did they say "We need more than two parties"
  - tomatotomato37 4y ago
    Yes, I agree. It's like sports teams now, where people cheer on whoever has the correct letter next to their name rather than bases on their actual personal policies or beliefs. It's also resulted in an effect I've noticed in most debates now where people just shout the advantages of their position and the disadvantages of their opponents position at each other without any attempt at addressing what their opponent is counter-arguing, if that makes sense.
defterGoose 4y ago
Maybe those with countervailing opinions are too busy working for a living instead of commenting on the internet.
paulcole 4y ago
> On Twitter, Reddit, and real life, the majority of people keep complaining about crime, drugs, homelessness. Maybe I’m misunderstanding your comment but in the US, these issues are the result of conservative politics.
- wincy 4y ago
  Which is why there’s so much violent crime in conservative bastions like Philadelphia, Chicago, New York, and Baltimore.
  - paulcole 4y ago
    Think of it like climate change. The weather today is the result of poor decision making 30, 40, 50+ years ago. Additionally, politics and policies exist at the national level as well and can influence what happens in even liberal cities.
    - thegrimmest 4y ago
      I'm not sure that's true at all. There have been many demonstrably effective short-term crime reduction strategies. Broken window theory being the most famous example. Shockingly, arresting and confining violent antisocial people reduces violence in society.
      - paulcole 4y ago
        Well as long as you’re not sure that’s good enough for me. I retract what I said.
      - themitigating 4y ago
        https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/22/nypd-fewer-arrests-reduce-crime-new-york https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/22/nypd-fewer-a... The ‘clearances paradox’: could less policing actually reduce gun violence in New York? Your over simplifying the complex reasons behind crime.
hotpotamus 4y ago
What solutions are the conservatives offering to crime, drugs, and homelessness?
- orangecat 4y ago
  As a representative example, maybe arrest somebody when they assault a woman and kill her dog (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/07/nyregion/dog-attack-park-slope-brooklyn.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/07/nyregion/dog-attack-park-...).
  - themitigating 4y ago
    Who is responsible for arresting people?
- overrun11 4y ago
  Promoting strong family structures and communities. Supporting social norms that dissuade destructive behavior.
  - hotpotamus 4y ago
    I wonder - which Conservative would you look to as a good example to model such behavior and lead the nation?
  - themitigating 4y ago
    Really? promote or force? Can you name any policies or bills that Republicans have to make this happen? Can you prove that social norms have an effect on crime or homelessness? Are you claiming gay people are more likely to be criminals because they don't? Homeless: "Research shows that, compared to homeless families, homeless single adults have higher rates of serious mental illness, addiction disorders, and other severe health problems." How would social norms fix that? If an adult has a mental illness and can't afford care are you willing to have universal health care? You don't think if they had family that could take them in and they were willing they would do that? https://www.coalitionforthehomeless.org/basic-facts-about-homelessness-new-york-city/ https://www.coalitionforthehomeless.org/basic-facts-about-ho... ------------------------------------------------------ Here's some GOP news about social norms 1.https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/29/cawthorn-orgies-freedom-caucus- https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/29/cawthorn-orgies-fre... 00021548 2.https://people.com/politics/madison-cawthorn-wife-cristina-divorce-after-less-than-8-months-marriage-our-lives-changed/ https://people.com/politics/madison-cawthorn-wife-cristina-d... 3.https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2022/09/29/marjorie-taylor-greene-husband-files-divorce/10459286002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2022/09/29/marj... 4.https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/07/jd-vance-violent-marriages https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/07/jd-vance-violent-mar... "GOP SENATE CANDIDATE J.D. VANCE: IF PEOPLE LOVE THEIR KIDS, THEY’LL STAY IN VIOLENT MARRIAGES" 5.https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/23/matt-gaetz-sex-trafficking-probe-prosecutors-recommend-against-charges.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/23/matt-gaetz-sex-trafficking-p... and you damn well I know go on
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
> Hopefully they stay close to the center for a long time. I feel like the "the left" is undergoing a purity spiral whereas other parties are scooping up everyone pushed out.
OrangeMonkey 4y ago
Thats not exactly how pendulums swing. Think about how far we have swung in one direction. Its going the same distance in the other. May god help us.
themitigating 4y ago
I'm angry about the loss of abortion rights federally, the rise of Christian nationalism, politicians lying about election fraud, people calling their enemies pedophiles and communists, politicans not knowing what those words mean, and facism What is this center you think we are going back to because all I see are far right politicans and the end of American democracy
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  > the end of American democracy Granting all the problems you've cited, things have still been much worse in the past than they are today. Maybe not in the recent past, the 90s and 00s look quite rosy today in some (not all) respects, but think a bit further back. America has gone through civil war, anti-communist witch trials, frequent politically motivated bombings and assassinations, etc. Throughout all of that, people have remained hopeful that things could get better. The greatest threat facing America today is demoralization. The belief that demise is inevitable and cannot be prevented could do America more permanent harm than anything else.
  - themitigating 4y ago
    So people don't trust the government and the election system. Could that is why they think demise will occur? That's the doing of the republican party. Trump is constantly saying America is a failed state. A democracy fails because people don't believe it works. All of this is republican
- pseudo0 4y ago
  It's weird how the "Christian nationalism" meme has been pushed by the usual suspects when US church attendance is at an all-time low, and religious influence on politics is a shadow of its former self. My guess is it's a mixture of obsession with The Handmaid's Tale, and the need for an alternative pejorative term that can be applied to black and Hispanic conservatives.
  - themitigating 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
kelnos 4y ago
> Sounds like a perfect environment for a generation of conservatives to get elected. Hopefully they stay close to the center for a long time. The problem is that conservatives (at least in the US, though this is happening in Europe too) have been swinging even farther to the right than most liberals have been swinging left. I think we're in for some bad times if the leftists don't stop stepping all over their own feet, causing a backlash (that we're already seeing to some degree) that puts the autocrats in power irrevocably.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

JadeNB 4y ago

> Sounds like a perfect environment for a generation of conservatives to get elected. Hopefully they stay close to the center for a long time. The conservative groundswell is because generations of conservatives have already been getting elected, especially in less flashy positions that wield influence. Conservatives have really played the long game, at least since the New Deal.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
D13Fd 4y ago
I think people’s need to frame seemingly every issue and even their entire worldview as liberal vs conservative is the biggest problem in politics.
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  I agree, I think it blinds people to the sort of problem that user macrolocal mentions in a nearby comment, rising illiberalism among both 'liberals' (more accurately called progressives, but this terminology is all twisted in America..) and conservatives. I'm concerned that both use the other to justify or rationalize their own declining liberalism.
- thegrimmest 4y ago
  I think many things can be framed as "change things" or "leave them".
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago
    "change things" vs "change things but ostensibly back to the way they were before". For instance, ruling against Roe v. Wade. Regardless of what you think of that, it, such a ruling was a deviation from the status quo. It was "changing things" as surely as the original ruling changed things.
    - thegrimmest 4y ago
      Sure, or "we made a mistake changing things, let's put them back". It just depends on the timescales you consider when determining the status quo.
      - MichaelCollins 4y ago
        Putting things back where they were depends on our recollection of the past, which is imperfect and subject to various biases and confusion with myth. But even ignoring that, the circumstances of the present are different than the circumstances of the past so past laws won't work the same in the present as they did in the past. Even if you could perfectly replicate past laws in the present, you couldn't get the same effect out of those laws because the inputs (the state of society) have changed. Nobody can roll back the clock. What conservatives actually do in fact is propose ways to change things going into the future.
        thegrimmest 4y ago
        > depends on our recollection of the past, which is imperfect We do have pretty good records to help us sort it out, especially for recent history. > the circumstances of the present are different than the circumstances of the past Surely some circumstances, such as human nature and social biology, have not changed. I'm not sure that "the state of society" is the primary differentiating factor in the effectiveness of laws, particularly laws relating to fundamental human behaviours like violence or reproduction.
        4y ago
- JadeNB 4y ago
  > I think people’s need to frame seemingly every issue and even their entire worldview as liberal vs conservative is the biggest problem in politics. I don't know if that was addressed to me for speaking of conservative political movements or to the conservatives, but it is not a label that I pin on an unwilling recipient; I am referring to a self-described conservative movement.
- themitigating 4y ago
  You know what trick I love? When someone points out something Democrats did and they say "that's why I'm conservative" then when you point out something Republicans did they say "We need more than two parties"
- tomatotomato37 4y ago
  Yes, I agree. It's like sports teams now, where people cheer on whoever has the correct letter next to their name rather than bases on their actual personal policies or beliefs. It's also resulted in an effect I've noticed in most debates now where people just shout the advantages of their position and the disadvantages of their opponents position at each other without any attempt at addressing what their opponent is counter-arguing, if that makes sense.

defterGoose 4y ago

Maybe those with countervailing opinions are too busy working for a living instead of commenting on the internet.

paulcole 4y ago

> On Twitter, Reddit, and real life, the majority of people keep complaining about crime, drugs, homelessness. Maybe I’m misunderstanding your comment but in the US, these issues are the result of conservative politics.

wincy 4y ago
Which is why there’s so much violent crime in conservative bastions like Philadelphia, Chicago, New York, and Baltimore.
- paulcole 4y ago
  Think of it like climate change. The weather today is the result of poor decision making 30, 40, 50+ years ago. Additionally, politics and policies exist at the national level as well and can influence what happens in even liberal cities.
  - thegrimmest 4y ago
    I'm not sure that's true at all. There have been many demonstrably effective short-term crime reduction strategies. Broken window theory being the most famous example. Shockingly, arresting and confining violent antisocial people reduces violence in society.
    - paulcole 4y ago
      Well as long as you’re not sure that’s good enough for me. I retract what I said.
    - themitigating 4y ago
      https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/22/nypd-fewer-arrests-reduce-crime-new-york https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/22/nypd-fewer-a... The ‘clearances paradox’: could less policing actually reduce gun violence in New York? Your over simplifying the complex reasons behind crime.

hotpotamus 4y ago

What solutions are the conservatives offering to crime, drugs, and homelessness?

orangecat 4y ago
As a representative example, maybe arrest somebody when they assault a woman and kill her dog (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/07/nyregion/dog-attack-park-slope-brooklyn.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/07/nyregion/dog-attack-park-...).
- themitigating 4y ago
  Who is responsible for arresting people?
overrun11 4y ago
Promoting strong family structures and communities. Supporting social norms that dissuade destructive behavior.
- hotpotamus 4y ago
  I wonder - which Conservative would you look to as a good example to model such behavior and lead the nation?
- themitigating 4y ago
  Really? promote or force? Can you name any policies or bills that Republicans have to make this happen? Can you prove that social norms have an effect on crime or homelessness? Are you claiming gay people are more likely to be criminals because they don't? Homeless: "Research shows that, compared to homeless families, homeless single adults have higher rates of serious mental illness, addiction disorders, and other severe health problems." How would social norms fix that? If an adult has a mental illness and can't afford care are you willing to have universal health care? You don't think if they had family that could take them in and they were willing they would do that? https://www.coalitionforthehomeless.org/basic-facts-about-homelessness-new-york-city/ https://www.coalitionforthehomeless.org/basic-facts-about-ho... ------------------------------------------------------ Here's some GOP news about social norms 1.https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/29/cawthorn-orgies-freedom-caucus- https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/29/cawthorn-orgies-fre... 00021548 2.https://people.com/politics/madison-cawthorn-wife-cristina-divorce-after-less-than-8-months-marriage-our-lives-changed/ https://people.com/politics/madison-cawthorn-wife-cristina-d... 3.https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2022/09/29/marjorie-taylor-greene-husband-files-divorce/10459286002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2022/09/29/marj... 4.https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/07/jd-vance-violent-marriages https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/07/jd-vance-violent-mar... "GOP SENATE CANDIDATE J.D. VANCE: IF PEOPLE LOVE THEIR KIDS, THEY’LL STAY IN VIOLENT MARRIAGES" 5.https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/23/matt-gaetz-sex-trafficking-probe-prosecutors-recommend-against-charges.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/23/matt-gaetz-sex-trafficking-p... and you damn well I know go on

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

LawTalkingGuy 4y ago

> Hopefully they stay close to the center for a long time. I feel like the "the left" is undergoing a purity spiral whereas other parties are scooping up everyone pushed out.

OrangeMonkey 4y ago

Thats not exactly how pendulums swing. Think about how far we have swung in one direction. Its going the same distance in the other. May god help us.

themitigating 4y ago

I'm angry about the loss of abortion rights federally, the rise of Christian nationalism, politicians lying about election fraud, people calling their enemies pedophiles and communists, politicans not knowing what those words mean, and facism What is this center you think we are going back to because all I see are far right politicans and the end of American democracy

MichaelCollins 4y ago
> the end of American democracy Granting all the problems you've cited, things have still been much worse in the past than they are today. Maybe not in the recent past, the 90s and 00s look quite rosy today in some (not all) respects, but think a bit further back. America has gone through civil war, anti-communist witch trials, frequent politically motivated bombings and assassinations, etc. Throughout all of that, people have remained hopeful that things could get better. The greatest threat facing America today is demoralization. The belief that demise is inevitable and cannot be prevented could do America more permanent harm than anything else.
- themitigating 4y ago
  So people don't trust the government and the election system. Could that is why they think demise will occur? That's the doing of the republican party. Trump is constantly saying America is a failed state. A democracy fails because people don't believe it works. All of this is republican
pseudo0 4y ago
It's weird how the "Christian nationalism" meme has been pushed by the usual suspects when US church attendance is at an all-time low, and religious influence on politics is a shadow of its former self. My guess is it's a mixture of obsession with The Handmaid's Tale, and the need for an alternative pejorative term that can be applied to black and Hispanic conservatives.
- themitigating 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

kelnos 4y ago

> Sounds like a perfect environment for a generation of conservatives to get elected. Hopefully they stay close to the center for a long time. The problem is that conservatives (at least in the US, though this is happening in Europe too) have been swinging even farther to the right than most liberals have been swinging left. I think we're in for some bad times if the leftists don't stop stepping all over their own feet, causing a backlash (that we're already seeing to some degree) that puts the autocrats in power irrevocably.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]