7 ms·

> people are expected to take decades longer to pay off a house than it would take for them to build it alone with their own hands in their spare time. Somehow

by danans 4y ago

> people are expected to take decades longer to pay off a house than it would take for them to build it alone with their own hands in their spare time. Somehow every non-homeowner has to be a policy slave to the passive income of some wealthy person. I agree that we have made houses too central to net-worth, but most homeowners are not wealthy. They are typically paying a significant amount of "rent" in the form of interest on the borrowed capital used to purchase their houses. I'm not saying it's the same as the non-tax-deductible rent paid by renters, but it's a very different situation than an inherited house in a very expensive area that is owned outright. > people are expected to take decades longer to pay off a house than it would take for them to build it alone with their own hands in their spare time. As someone who built significant portions of my house with my own hands in my spare time, I can assure you that individuals artisanally and incrementally building their homes is not a scalable approach to housing. We should instead be building houses like we build modular flat-pack furniture, with major components built in controlled factory settings, and final assembly on site. The way I did it (GC doing the heavy structural work, my doing the finishing work) itself isn't scalable. Yes it saved me money, but the amount of knowledge I had to build in order to effectively complete it isn't realistic for most people, who very reasonably aren't interested in the understanding all the different ways to do flooring underlayments.

dendrite9 4y ago
You might be interested in Walter Segal's ideas of building houses as assemblies from materials in their available dimensions so the parts are easy to reuse or modify. I find his ideas both compelling and a bit too idealistic or from another era. In the winter I have an architect friend who I talk to and hope to get his views on the pros and cons this year. https://theprepared.org/features-feed/segal-method https://theprepared.org/features-feed/segal-method
- pessimizer 4y ago
  He's kind of amazing and I'm obsessed with him, but the problem with his original concept is how hard they are to insulate. He has a lot of living followers that have put a lot of time into designs that can be insulated well, but they lose the off-the-shelf quality of the original Segal concept. The Architects' Journal Special Issue: The Segal Method: http://www.ianwhite.info/THE_SEGAL_METHOD.pdf http://www.ianwhite.info/THE_SEGAL_METHOD.pdf http://www.segalbuildings.me.uk/ http://www.segalbuildings.me.uk/ ----- edit: It took me a little while to find Segal's followers' books, so I might as well list the ones I own here if anybody else is interested. They contain updated, insulated interpretations of Segal's process, and experimentation with alternative materials. The Self-Build Book: How to Enjoy Designing and Building Your Own Home by Jon Broome and Brian Richardson Out of the Woods by Pat Borer and Cindy Harris The Whole House Book: Ecological Building Design & Materials by Pat Borer and Cindy Harris The Green Self-Build Book: How to Design and Build Your Own Eco Home by Jon Broome
  - datavirtue 4y ago
    Shame, we would not be allowed to build this style in my township. Post beam is forbidden.
    - bombcar 4y ago
      It’s disappointing when things are accidentally banned - pope barns and post frame are similar in some aspects but entirely different in others. Regulations should define the desired goals, not how they’re reached.
    - JKCalhoun 4y ago
      Any idea why that is? I ask because I love post-beam, would love to see post-beam construction using modern engineered (laminate) beams.
      - datavirtue 4y ago
        Ugh. Not really. I struggle to come up with any reason at all given that it's proven technology with prior art going back many thousands of years. The entire city of Venice is built on the concept. We keep digging up long forgotten civilizations to find their post beam foundations in tact. My best guess is rot. However, if you do it right there is no risk.
    - throw0101c 4y ago
      Perhaps see: * https://www.prettygoodhouse.org https://www.prettygoodhouse.org
  - dendrite9 4y ago
    Thanks! I did some reading about his concepts but decided it was a rabbit hole that would take a while to explore. Decided to stop for a while so I can focus on more pressing things but I'll add those to the list. Looking at updated information seems worthwhile. Out of the Woods is familiar for some reason, I know my dad wanted to build a house himself at one point. Maybe that was on the bookshelf when I was younger? I'll have to talk to him about this.
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  I had wondered if there were a sort of open-source floor plan for a smallish single-family home. I imagine a design that has variations for different geographical regions of the country to account for material availability, local needs and codes. Optimized for ease of construction, cost, etc. Perhaps it could get some sort of blessing from various municipalities so that building permits are either waived or fast-tracked. Perhaps construction workers could learn or train to construct these homes such that experienced contractors can rotate across a number of builds in an area — total time for construction of one home perhaps close to 3 or 4 months.
  - shagie 4y ago
    Back when you could buy a house at Sears, a lot of the floor plans were printed right there. And even though the styles are a bit dated... the internal designs are often better thought out than today's homes. http://www.searsarchives.com/homes/bydate.htm http://www.searsarchives.com/homes/bydate.htm https://www.blawenburgtales.com/post/52-blawenburg-s-sears-houses https://www.blawenburgtales.com/post/52-blawenburg-s-sears-h... This isn't completely off - you can find similar houses today (not quite the variety that Sears had in its heyday... but they're still there) https://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/the-project-store/home-projects/c-1474668109497.htm https://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/the-project-... > This plan is drawn to meet the National IBC (International Building Code), but it may not completely comply with state, city, county or municipality code requirements. It's recommended to consult with your local building official prior to purchasing the plan. If needed, this plan can be modified to comply with any state, city, county or municipality code requirements. Modification fee may apply. Plans ordered in an electronic PDF format are not refundable due to the licenses issued to the purchaser for the rights to build the Plan. *State of Illinois residents: Please consult with your local permitting officiant prior to ordering plan. An "open source floor plan", beyond a floor plan, gets into liability.
  - entangledqubit 4y ago
    Not fully parameterized like what you're talking about but Seattle has some standardized pre-approved plans for DADUs (detached accessory dwelling units) available. It would be nice to see design libraries for various regions with equivalent building codes/standards.
moltar 4y ago
Take a look at Bone Structure houses. They do exactly what you describe and do it really well!
- nine_k 4y ago
  After perusing their website for a while, I could not find anything resembling a cost estimate, or cost figures for the multitude existing homes they feature. With that, I wonder if using their materials and services saves any construction money. (Should save maintenance money, I think.)
  - JKCalhoun 4y ago
    Googling, looks like they are in fact on the pricey side.
scarface74 4y ago
> I'm not saying it's the same as the non-tax-deductible rent paid by renters, With the standard deduction being as high as it is, most people don’t pay enough in interest to itemize to take advantage of the mortgage interest deduction. While no politician would dare touch the mortgage interest deduction, most progressive economists think that it is hand out to the rich and we should get rid of it. While the Trump era tax cuts and increasing the standard deduction didn’t get rid of the mortgage deduction, it was one thing that was right about the law. https://smartasset.com/taxes/how-did-the-trump-tax-bill-affect-itemized-deductions-2021 https://smartasset.com/taxes/how-did-the-trump-tax-bill-affe...
pontifier 4y ago
I'm thinking that the only viable solution to the log jam in construction is to have a structural engineering AI help people build homes and guide construction and renovation. If the AI says it's safe, the local inspectors will have to agree. I'm so sick of the way things are done currently.
s1artibartfast 4y ago
>I can assure you that individuals artisanally and incrementally building their homes is not a scalable approach to housing. I think they were saying that the time and hours taken is not commensurate with the purchase cost, not proposing it as an actual solution. That said I think they are still very wrong. If you were to build a modern house from scratch, you're taking enormous amount of time. Imagine felling the the timber and Milling it alone would take years. Ignoring the material side of things, most of what you're paying for is the knowledge and experience of the laborers. It takes a lot of time to learn each trade and how to build properly. It also takes a fair amount of work to learn the the regulations and comply with the certifications for each task
- pessimizer 4y ago
  I wasn't assuming that you'd be mining the gypsum and milling the screws. The materials cost of houses isn't the justification for the lion's share of the price.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Materials cost is a major factor however. Here’s a house in materials form - it’s still $120k. https://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/books-building-plans/home-plans/shop-all-home-projects/29524-turnberry-1-story-home-material-list/29524/p-3289655538689628-c-9919.htm?tid=-2489209221024480839&ipos=8 https://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/books-buildi...
    - JKCalhoun 4y ago
      Interesting. Surely the price includes some amount of markup however?
    - pessimizer 4y ago
      I'm just talking about doing the stuff that anybody can figure out to do. You purchase materials, and you hire craftsmen to do the hard stuff. I'm also not talking about getting a house for free, I'm talking about boring house prices that track inflation rather than exciting house prices that track bitcoin.
bluGill 4y ago
Houses do come as flat pack. You just fail to realize what a miracle the 2x4 is, and all the other standard parts. Walls could come as a unit, but that makes shipping harder and since people (for good reason) don't like identical houses there isn't even any savings possible doing it in a factory.
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  Prefab/modular is a thing, it isn’t really cheaper yet, but there are niche cases where they have benefits over stick builds. Quality, for example, can be better with prefab, since QA in the factory might be better than QA on-site.
  - forgetfreeman 4y ago
    I've framed stick built houses and assembled modular homes on site and let me tell you modular wins hands down for build quality.
    - bluGill 4y ago
      While that can be true, modular has earned a reputation for bad quality. When you buy one with good quality it is only a little cheaper than stick built on site, and stick built gives a lot more options.
      - forgetfreeman 4y ago
        Yeah I'm not convinced that reputation is earned. As I said elsewhere in the thread modules are built significantly more rugged than the equivalent stick built construction due to having to survive the rigors of transportation and installation. If there's any grounds at all for critique it might be interior surface treatments, but those are customizable.
  - dzhiurgis 4y ago
    Cover is a company that tries to apply auto manufacturing knowledge to build modular homes. ATM they are super luxurious and expensive granny flats (auxilary unit), but I can't see why they can't scale up in future. That said steel houses have been tried and have few downsides - echo, blocks RF and hard to modify.
matt-p 4y ago
The building by hand thing is a bit of distraction to be honest. In the UK we already know we can build 'ok' housing for £2k per sqm, all in. Land is a minimum of /Half/ the cost of a new build house, and frankly that is probably on the outskirts of some run down town in the midlands or something. Build in a populous, prosperous city and well you can imagine what portion of a £800k 50Sqm apartment is building cost, maybe 10% or so. It's the land with building permission which is scarce and insanely expensive. If you have a house in an area then you are motivated to block/object to all planning applications locally. Including lobbying your MP, campaigning and so on.
forgetfreeman 4y ago
Trade carpenter here. IMO biggest problem for folks who banzai DIY home construction projects with no prior experience is the financials behind YouTube content producers. Their need to make engaging content unfortunately necessarily means dead simple tasks end up being presented as significantly more complex than they are in practice. I do agree that DIY construction is poorly suited for the lone individual though. Having a group of friends/family get together to bang out a construction project is a much better strategy. Houses are routinely constructed in the "flat pack" style you reference. Modular homes have been a thing since at least the 50s (we see you over there Lustron). Weirdly "manufactured housing" performs poorly when compared to traditional stick built construction methods. There is this impression in the market that manufactured housing is in some way inferior. Based on my experience in the industry I'd personally take a modular over anything stick built any day of the week. Modules are built truck enough to shrug off getting hauled OTR for hundreds of miles and then get hoisted into position with a crane. No way in hell stick built anything is going to take that level of abuse and remain intact. I deeply question the idea that it's reasonable for an adult human in the world to have no curiosity about, or experience with, how their home is constructed. While I have certainly paid my bills off the backs of folks who simply could not come to grips with whatever project was at hand I much prefer to see folks able to do for themselves and thereby avoid my markup.
- phil21 4y ago
  > While I have certainly paid my bills off the backs of folks who simply could not come to grips with whatever project was at hand I much prefer to see folks able to do for themselves and thereby avoid my markup I've long thought (and would pay for) a skilled tradesman offering to do a job at double their usual hourly rate - with the condition I (the homeowner) works as their assistant being taught on the job would be a nice niche business for someone with the skills and network. I'd have paid handsomely for a plumber to come teach me how to sweat pipes in a day or two and all the weird little gotchyas vs. me figuring it out by trial and error. There are other projects I'd love to start but get cold feet about the last 20% so I don't quite ever get there. I would rate myself as near the top of my network in terms of "handy" skills, but still lacking in direct experience. I know how much of a PITA the average homeowner is, but man I'd love to be able to apprentice next to skilled pros doing work on my own home. Having someone to both teach and act as a safetynet if the project starts going sideways would be highly compelling to me.
ultrarunner 4y ago
I did some tech work for the Amish (seriously) where I used to live, and their model of a community coming together and building a house or barn or whatever seemed to work well for them. I agree that the work I've had to do to make my home my own has been a significant challenge once children appeared, and that many people simple wouldn't have have the bandwidth in one way or another. However, I do wonder if that's a consequence of a lifestyle choice and if there aren't better ways to approach these problems.

by danans 4y ago

dendrite9 4y ago

You might be interested in Walter Segal's ideas of building houses as assemblies from materials in their available dimensions so the parts are easy to reuse or modify. I find his ideas both compelling and a bit too idealistic or from another era. In the winter I have an architect friend who I talk to and hope to get his views on the pros and cons this year. https://theprepared.org/features-feed/segal-method https://theprepared.org/features-feed/segal-method

pessimizer 4y ago
He's kind of amazing and I'm obsessed with him, but the problem with his original concept is how hard they are to insulate. He has a lot of living followers that have put a lot of time into designs that can be insulated well, but they lose the off-the-shelf quality of the original Segal concept. The Architects' Journal Special Issue: The Segal Method: http://www.ianwhite.info/THE_SEGAL_METHOD.pdf http://www.ianwhite.info/THE_SEGAL_METHOD.pdf http://www.segalbuildings.me.uk/ http://www.segalbuildings.me.uk/ ----- edit: It took me a little while to find Segal's followers' books, so I might as well list the ones I own here if anybody else is interested. They contain updated, insulated interpretations of Segal's process, and experimentation with alternative materials. The Self-Build Book: How to Enjoy Designing and Building Your Own Home by Jon Broome and Brian Richardson Out of the Woods by Pat Borer and Cindy Harris The Whole House Book: Ecological Building Design & Materials by Pat Borer and Cindy Harris The Green Self-Build Book: How to Design and Build Your Own Eco Home by Jon Broome
- datavirtue 4y ago
  Shame, we would not be allowed to build this style in my township. Post beam is forbidden.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    It’s disappointing when things are accidentally banned - pope barns and post frame are similar in some aspects but entirely different in others. Regulations should define the desired goals, not how they’re reached.
  - JKCalhoun 4y ago
    Any idea why that is? I ask because I love post-beam, would love to see post-beam construction using modern engineered (laminate) beams.
    - datavirtue 4y ago
      Ugh. Not really. I struggle to come up with any reason at all given that it's proven technology with prior art going back many thousands of years. The entire city of Venice is built on the concept. We keep digging up long forgotten civilizations to find their post beam foundations in tact. My best guess is rot. However, if you do it right there is no risk.
  - throw0101c 4y ago
    Perhaps see: * https://www.prettygoodhouse.org https://www.prettygoodhouse.org
- dendrite9 4y ago
  Thanks! I did some reading about his concepts but decided it was a rabbit hole that would take a while to explore. Decided to stop for a while so I can focus on more pressing things but I'll add those to the list. Looking at updated information seems worthwhile. Out of the Woods is familiar for some reason, I know my dad wanted to build a house himself at one point. Maybe that was on the bookshelf when I was younger? I'll have to talk to him about this.
JKCalhoun 4y ago
I had wondered if there were a sort of open-source floor plan for a smallish single-family home. I imagine a design that has variations for different geographical regions of the country to account for material availability, local needs and codes. Optimized for ease of construction, cost, etc. Perhaps it could get some sort of blessing from various municipalities so that building permits are either waived or fast-tracked. Perhaps construction workers could learn or train to construct these homes such that experienced contractors can rotate across a number of builds in an area — total time for construction of one home perhaps close to 3 or 4 months.
- shagie 4y ago
  Back when you could buy a house at Sears, a lot of the floor plans were printed right there. And even though the styles are a bit dated... the internal designs are often better thought out than today's homes. http://www.searsarchives.com/homes/bydate.htm http://www.searsarchives.com/homes/bydate.htm https://www.blawenburgtales.com/post/52-blawenburg-s-sears-houses https://www.blawenburgtales.com/post/52-blawenburg-s-sears-h... This isn't completely off - you can find similar houses today (not quite the variety that Sears had in its heyday... but they're still there) https://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/the-project-store/home-projects/c-1474668109497.htm https://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/the-project-... > This plan is drawn to meet the National IBC (International Building Code), but it may not completely comply with state, city, county or municipality code requirements. It's recommended to consult with your local building official prior to purchasing the plan. If needed, this plan can be modified to comply with any state, city, county or municipality code requirements. Modification fee may apply. Plans ordered in an electronic PDF format are not refundable due to the licenses issued to the purchaser for the rights to build the Plan. *State of Illinois residents: Please consult with your local permitting officiant prior to ordering plan. An "open source floor plan", beyond a floor plan, gets into liability.
- entangledqubit 4y ago
  Not fully parameterized like what you're talking about but Seattle has some standardized pre-approved plans for DADUs (detached accessory dwelling units) available. It would be nice to see design libraries for various regions with equivalent building codes/standards.

moltar 4y ago

Take a look at Bone Structure houses. They do exactly what you describe and do it really well!

nine_k 4y ago
After perusing their website for a while, I could not find anything resembling a cost estimate, or cost figures for the multitude existing homes they feature. With that, I wonder if using their materials and services saves any construction money. (Should save maintenance money, I think.)
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  Googling, looks like they are in fact on the pricey side.

scarface74 4y ago

> I'm not saying it's the same as the non-tax-deductible rent paid by renters, With the standard deduction being as high as it is, most people don’t pay enough in interest to itemize to take advantage of the mortgage interest deduction. While no politician would dare touch the mortgage interest deduction, most progressive economists think that it is hand out to the rich and we should get rid of it. While the Trump era tax cuts and increasing the standard deduction didn’t get rid of the mortgage deduction, it was one thing that was right about the law. https://smartasset.com/taxes/how-did-the-trump-tax-bill-affect-itemized-deductions-2021 https://smartasset.com/taxes/how-did-the-trump-tax-bill-affe...

pontifier 4y ago

I'm thinking that the only viable solution to the log jam in construction is to have a structural engineering AI help people build homes and guide construction and renovation. If the AI says it's safe, the local inspectors will have to agree. I'm so sick of the way things are done currently.

s1artibartfast 4y ago

>I can assure you that individuals artisanally and incrementally building their homes is not a scalable approach to housing. I think they were saying that the time and hours taken is not commensurate with the purchase cost, not proposing it as an actual solution. That said I think they are still very wrong. If you were to build a modern house from scratch, you're taking enormous amount of time. Imagine felling the the timber and Milling it alone would take years. Ignoring the material side of things, most of what you're paying for is the knowledge and experience of the laborers. It takes a lot of time to learn each trade and how to build properly. It also takes a fair amount of work to learn the the regulations and comply with the certifications for each task

pessimizer 4y ago
I wasn't assuming that you'd be mining the gypsum and milling the screws. The materials cost of houses isn't the justification for the lion's share of the price.
- bombcar 4y ago
  Materials cost is a major factor however. Here’s a house in materials form - it’s still $120k. https://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/books-building-plans/home-plans/shop-all-home-projects/29524-turnberry-1-story-home-material-list/29524/p-3289655538689628-c-9919.htm?tid=-2489209221024480839&ipos=8 https://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/books-buildi...
  - JKCalhoun 4y ago
    Interesting. Surely the price includes some amount of markup however?
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    I'm just talking about doing the stuff that anybody can figure out to do. You purchase materials, and you hire craftsmen to do the hard stuff. I'm also not talking about getting a house for free, I'm talking about boring house prices that track inflation rather than exciting house prices that track bitcoin.

bluGill 4y ago

Houses do come as flat pack. You just fail to realize what a miracle the 2x4 is, and all the other standard parts. Walls could come as a unit, but that makes shipping harder and since people (for good reason) don't like identical houses there isn't even any savings possible doing it in a factory.

seanmcdirmid 4y ago
Prefab/modular is a thing, it isn’t really cheaper yet, but there are niche cases where they have benefits over stick builds. Quality, for example, can be better with prefab, since QA in the factory might be better than QA on-site.
- forgetfreeman 4y ago
  I've framed stick built houses and assembled modular homes on site and let me tell you modular wins hands down for build quality.
  - bluGill 4y ago
    While that can be true, modular has earned a reputation for bad quality. When you buy one with good quality it is only a little cheaper than stick built on site, and stick built gives a lot more options.
    - forgetfreeman 4y ago
      Yeah I'm not convinced that reputation is earned. As I said elsewhere in the thread modules are built significantly more rugged than the equivalent stick built construction due to having to survive the rigors of transportation and installation. If there's any grounds at all for critique it might be interior surface treatments, but those are customizable.
- dzhiurgis 4y ago
  Cover is a company that tries to apply auto manufacturing knowledge to build modular homes. ATM they are super luxurious and expensive granny flats (auxilary unit), but I can't see why they can't scale up in future. That said steel houses have been tried and have few downsides - echo, blocks RF and hard to modify.

matt-p 4y ago

The building by hand thing is a bit of distraction to be honest. In the UK we already know we can build 'ok' housing for £2k per sqm, all in. Land is a minimum of /Half/ the cost of a new build house, and frankly that is probably on the outskirts of some run down town in the midlands or something. Build in a populous, prosperous city and well you can imagine what portion of a £800k 50Sqm apartment is building cost, maybe 10% or so. It's the land with building permission which is scarce and insanely expensive. If you have a house in an area then you are motivated to block/object to all planning applications locally. Including lobbying your MP, campaigning and so on.

forgetfreeman 4y ago

Trade carpenter here. IMO biggest problem for folks who banzai DIY home construction projects with no prior experience is the financials behind YouTube content producers. Their need to make engaging content unfortunately necessarily means dead simple tasks end up being presented as significantly more complex than they are in practice. I do agree that DIY construction is poorly suited for the lone individual though. Having a group of friends/family get together to bang out a construction project is a much better strategy. Houses are routinely constructed in the "flat pack" style you reference. Modular homes have been a thing since at least the 50s (we see you over there Lustron). Weirdly "manufactured housing" performs poorly when compared to traditional stick built construction methods. There is this impression in the market that manufactured housing is in some way inferior. Based on my experience in the industry I'd personally take a modular over anything stick built any day of the week. Modules are built truck enough to shrug off getting hauled OTR for hundreds of miles and then get hoisted into position with a crane. No way in hell stick built anything is going to take that level of abuse and remain intact. I deeply question the idea that it's reasonable for an adult human in the world to have no curiosity about, or experience with, how their home is constructed. While I have certainly paid my bills off the backs of folks who simply could not come to grips with whatever project was at hand I much prefer to see folks able to do for themselves and thereby avoid my markup.

phil21 4y ago
> While I have certainly paid my bills off the backs of folks who simply could not come to grips with whatever project was at hand I much prefer to see folks able to do for themselves and thereby avoid my markup I've long thought (and would pay for) a skilled tradesman offering to do a job at double their usual hourly rate - with the condition I (the homeowner) works as their assistant being taught on the job would be a nice niche business for someone with the skills and network. I'd have paid handsomely for a plumber to come teach me how to sweat pipes in a day or two and all the weird little gotchyas vs. me figuring it out by trial and error. There are other projects I'd love to start but get cold feet about the last 20% so I don't quite ever get there. I would rate myself as near the top of my network in terms of "handy" skills, but still lacking in direct experience. I know how much of a PITA the average homeowner is, but man I'd love to be able to apprentice next to skilled pros doing work on my own home. Having someone to both teach and act as a safetynet if the project starts going sideways would be highly compelling to me.

ultrarunner 4y ago

I did some tech work for the Amish (seriously) where I used to live, and their model of a community coming together and building a house or barn or whatever seemed to work well for them. I agree that the work I've had to do to make my home my own has been a significant challenge once children appeared, and that many people simple wouldn't have have the bandwidth in one way or another. However, I do wonder if that's a consequence of a lifestyle choice and if there aren't better ways to approach these problems.