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Though clearly well-intentioned, these sorts of things have always rubbed me the wrong way, too. It seems they are only acceptable for categories outside the "

by mhartl 18y ago

Though clearly well-intentioned, these sorts of things have always rubbed me the wrong way, too. It seems they are only acceptable for categories outside the "dominant" set {white, male}. "Women in Engineering" is fine, as is "African Americans in Medicine". And unlike, say, a Gay Men's Chorus, I'd bet they're not particularly accepting of people who don't fit the profile. As a white male, I'm sure I enjoy all sorts of implicit advantages I don't even notice, but it still weirds me out to see groups wear their exclusionary nature not only openly, but with pride.

aston 18y ago
Is your opposition with the fact that minorities are forming groups or that they might be exclusive in nature? If it's the latter, most of them actually aren't--feel free to join your local National Society of Black Engineers chapter.
- mhartl 18y ago
  It's not really opposition, just uneasiness. I believe in voluntary associations, but I think it's a warning sign that it would be hard to form the "National Society of White Engineers" without seeming racist or a "Men in Engineering" group without seeming sexist, even if they accepted anyone who wanted to join. The National Society of Black Engineers, no matter how welcoming they may be in practice, just don't sound like they really want me to show up at their next meeting. And I'm pretty sure the Women in Engineering group at Caltech would have been pissed off if I or any other male Techers had crashed their parties...
  - aston 18y ago
    Well, the pattern isn't "random group of people get-together," it's "severe minority group get-together." Less of a warning sign and more of a general pattern. I think it makes a lot of sense to look for the familiar when you're surrounded by something that is somehow alien to you. And since the groups are often formed because of some exclusion (perceived or real), they're very rarely exclusionary themselves. As a white male in tech, I can see how you might find it difficult to empathize with someone in that situation. Best sort of "imagine if" scenario would be if I dropped you in the middle of a foreign country and you looked around and realized that there were a few Techers there with you. You guys (and gals?) might have some beers together, and if anyone from Turkmenistanians wanted to join you, they could.
    - jimbokun 18y ago
      I describe experiencing this kind of thing in Japan elsewhere in this thread.
cmos 18y ago
I recruit from my alma mater first. I help people who grew up in my hometown. It's a comfort level thing.
jimbokun 18y ago
"And unlike, say, a Gay Men's Chorus" Did you see the episode of Will and Grace, where Matt Damon pretends to be gay because that is the only way he can get accepted into the men's chorus group?
- mhartl 18y ago
  I haven't seen that episode, but it sounds funny. For what it's worth, I have been invited to join a Gay Men's Chorus, despite not being gay. Though maybe it was just because, like all choruses, they were desperately short of tenors. :-)

by mhartl 18y ago

aston 18y ago

Is your opposition with the fact that minorities are forming groups or that they might be exclusive in nature? If it's the latter, most of them actually aren't--feel free to join your local National Society of Black Engineers chapter.

mhartl 18y ago
It's not really opposition, just uneasiness. I believe in voluntary associations, but I think it's a warning sign that it would be hard to form the "National Society of White Engineers" without seeming racist or a "Men in Engineering" group without seeming sexist, even if they accepted anyone who wanted to join. The National Society of Black Engineers, no matter how welcoming they may be in practice, just don't sound like they really want me to show up at their next meeting. And I'm pretty sure the Women in Engineering group at Caltech would have been pissed off if I or any other male Techers had crashed their parties...
- aston 18y ago
  Well, the pattern isn't "random group of people get-together," it's "severe minority group get-together." Less of a warning sign and more of a general pattern. I think it makes a lot of sense to look for the familiar when you're surrounded by something that is somehow alien to you. And since the groups are often formed because of some exclusion (perceived or real), they're very rarely exclusionary themselves. As a white male in tech, I can see how you might find it difficult to empathize with someone in that situation. Best sort of "imagine if" scenario would be if I dropped you in the middle of a foreign country and you looked around and realized that there were a few Techers there with you. You guys (and gals?) might have some beers together, and if anyone from Turkmenistanians wanted to join you, they could.
  - jimbokun 18y ago
    I describe experiencing this kind of thing in Japan elsewhere in this thread.

cmos 18y ago

I recruit from my alma mater first. I help people who grew up in my hometown. It's a comfort level thing.

jimbokun 18y ago

"And unlike, say, a Gay Men's Chorus" Did you see the episode of Will and Grace, where Matt Damon pretends to be gay because that is the only way he can get accepted into the men's chorus group?

mhartl 18y ago
I haven't seen that episode, but it sounds funny. For what it's worth, I have been invited to join a Gay Men's Chorus, despite not being gay. Though maybe it was just because, like all choruses, they were desperately short of tenors. :-)