8 ms·

I apologise in advance as this is probably quite a controversial rant, but this sort of thing has always really frustrated me. I guess it comes down to this: I

by halo 18y ago

I apologise in advance as this is probably quite a controversial rant, but this sort of thing has always really frustrated me. I guess it comes down to this: I don't see how sex matters when you're a business person, when you're programming, when you're building things. The sex of the person rightfully shouldn't come into it - it's their skills that matter. The interpreter, afterall, doesn't spit out a different result depending the sex of the coder - a computer is ultimately a great leveller. It has been a long fought battle to try and gain equality between the sexes and I firmly believe society is increasingly heading towards that goal. And then when I read things like this it feels like a punch-in-the-face, as though it's saying "equality doesn't matter when it helps women". Or, even worse, there's perhaps an implication that women /need/ the help of other women to succeed and deserve special treatment. Or should I get ideas that there is some sort of conspiracy to form the inverse to the stereotype sexist "men's-only club" boardroom and there's some sort of attempt to reverse that through a "women's-only club". I loathe all these implications. I've often wondered about this curious double-standard. There's previously been women-only discussions by Google in Computer Science at my University, but I bet there isn't men-only discussions in the psychology department, languages or other women-dominated social sciences and I think they'd be highly controversial if they did. Often an eyelid isn't blinked when someone offers something exclusively for women, but there'd rightly be uproar if someone offered it for men-only. I often wonder if the fact that men do significantly worse than women in exams (and as such University admissions) in this country would be quite such a footnote if the shoe was on the other foot.

SapphireSun 18y ago
While I agree with you for the last two paragraphs, I've started to think that it might be very useful to have a female in the founders or first employees circle. The reason isn't because they are necessarily better, but they are aware of facets of culture that we are not aware of because they grew up in that tribe and we didn't. They would have the same problem vica versa. If you're selling to a broad multisexual audiance, it makes sense to have a confederate in your midst to point out any faux pas you may make.
- halo 18y ago
  I can see your point although I'm not necessarily sure I agree with it. I don't think I'm any more away of the facets of culture of the average man any more than most women and I don't like to think that women-kind is that distant that it's easy to make faux-pas. I don't object to employing someone for their knowledge of a market though when it's relevant. When in Rome, it might be handy to hire some Romans...
- netcan 18y ago
  please watch the formatting It stretches the page.
Alex3917 18y ago
This is about equity, not equality. And we do talk about the same things for men when it comes to reading ability and scholastic performance. In fact just a couple weeks ago I posted a review of Peg Tyre's new book The Trouble With Boys.
mhartl 18y ago
Though clearly well-intentioned, these sorts of things have always rubbed me the wrong way, too. It seems they are only acceptable for categories outside the "dominant" set {white, male}. "Women in Engineering" is fine, as is "African Americans in Medicine". And unlike, say, a Gay Men's Chorus, I'd bet they're not particularly accepting of people who don't fit the profile. As a white male, I'm sure I enjoy all sorts of implicit advantages I don't even notice, but it still weirds me out to see groups wear their exclusionary nature not only openly, but with pride.
- aston 18y ago
  Is your opposition with the fact that minorities are forming groups or that they might be exclusive in nature? If it's the latter, most of them actually aren't--feel free to join your local National Society of Black Engineers chapter.
  - mhartl 18y ago
    It's not really opposition, just uneasiness. I believe in voluntary associations, but I think it's a warning sign that it would be hard to form the "National Society of White Engineers" without seeming racist or a "Men in Engineering" group without seeming sexist, even if they accepted anyone who wanted to join. The National Society of Black Engineers, no matter how welcoming they may be in practice, just don't sound like they really want me to show up at their next meeting. And I'm pretty sure the Women in Engineering group at Caltech would have been pissed off if I or any other male Techers had crashed their parties...
    - aston 18y ago
      Well, the pattern isn't "random group of people get-together," it's "severe minority group get-together." Less of a warning sign and more of a general pattern. I think it makes a lot of sense to look for the familiar when you're surrounded by something that is somehow alien to you. And since the groups are often formed because of some exclusion (perceived or real), they're very rarely exclusionary themselves. As a white male in tech, I can see how you might find it difficult to empathize with someone in that situation. Best sort of "imagine if" scenario would be if I dropped you in the middle of a foreign country and you looked around and realized that there were a few Techers there with you. You guys (and gals?) might have some beers together, and if anyone from Turkmenistanians wanted to join you, they could.
abstractbill 18y ago
Startup life is a lot easier when you have a mentor, and it's easier to form that mentor relationship when you have things in common. I don't see anything wrong with female mentors reaching out to other women and offering the opportunity to form these relationships.
sanj 18y ago
Might I suggest that you consider taking part in a class dominated by women? Perhaps something discussing the proto-feminist leanings of Woolf? I'm not kidding. I think you'll find that you're lonely. That you gravitate towards talking to other men in the group. That you feel like your voice isn't heard. That you sense resentment towards you. That your opinion isn't valid. Now imagine going through that every day in your college career. (I'm assuming you're a man. If you're not, then my 97% die roll failed me.)
- ajross 18y ago
  Indeed. Now add a bunch of chest-pounding chicks writing self-described "controversial rants" about the utter ridiculousness of having a group just for men to feel good about themselves. Hell, the tone of the parent article alone is enough to justify this group. Guys: we already dominate the industry, and will for the rest of our careers. There's no need to be jerks about it. If you don't see the need for a group to which you'll never belong, just keep quiet.
  - halo 18y ago
    I find your reply objectionable. I believe you mischaracterised my argument or completely misjudged my tone. At no point did I suggest the original author's point-of-view was "utterly ridiculous", just that I found it frustrating and to try and emphatically explain the reasons why. There is a world of difference there. The introductory comments about it being a "controversial rant" have been mischaracterised - the idea was to try and minimise any offence to the original author, that I knew it was slightly hijacking the thread, that it may be a fringe viewpoint and that the author would probably disagree with my point-of-view. At no point was I aiming for "chest-beating", nor do I believe that was the tone of the post, but I do apologise if it came across as such. I do believe, however, that had the roles been reversed that I would not be offended if someone put their arguments forward as I did to support their point of view. I also quite obviously disagree that I'm a "jerk", and I firmly believe that my opinion still matters despite apparently being the "wrong sex" to be able to have one on this matter and that this sort of discussion is not and should not be out of bounds.
  - 18y ago
jwilliams 18y ago
> I guess it comes down to this: I don't see how sex matters when you're a business person, when you're programming, when you're building things. I'm sure you believe this yourself, you behave like this, and you have probably witnessed this a great deal - but this doesn't necessarily generalize. However, there has been a lot of (empirical) research into this area and it's shown that this still is an issue. For example: http://psy.ex.ac.uk/seorg/glasscliff/ http://psy.ex.ac.uk/seorg/glasscliff/
bootload 18y ago
"... I don't see how sex matters when you're a business person, when you're programming, when you're building things ..." Maybe because you are a member (myself included) of a homogeneous monk-like cloistered society that meets daily with your own kind where everyone knows the secret hand-shake and acknowledges you. Given that nobody does lone-programming anymore if you are different you are going to be side-lined. I guess the argument killer here is "put your hands up all those who would trade places as a man to be a women in a male dominated - some say one of the last - in the software industry?". Your argument of course is not a new one. The best example I can think of is hiring musicians for Orchestra. You would think that gender would not be a problem. Surely a musician who is good enough would get a job in a Orchestra based on musical ability in the "12 minute recital" alone? Yet Orchestras have been a male dominated industry ~ http://www.polyphonic.org/panels.php?id=7&day=1 http://www.polyphonic.org/panels.php?id=7&day=1 Read here more on the debate on Orchestral selection and among other things gender. Is this issue another structural issue within Startups where gender dominance is only skills based? Or are there entry hurdles that can be knocked down with some small changes? Don't we all want as many high quality entrepreneurs and Startups to florish? Or is it a "foo only club?" where you can join in as long as you are one of "us"?
- trevelyan 18y ago
  > Given that nobody does lone-programming anymore Really? I need a support group.
  - cabalamat 18y ago
    Me too :-)
  - bootload 18y ago
    "... > Given that nobody does lone-programming anymore Really? I need a support group. ..." I'm being facetious. This was a throw away line Doug Crockford gave in a talk I was listening to, "Quality" talk I was listening to the other day (about 10-15m in) ~ http://developer.yahoo.net/blogs/theater/archives/2007/05/douglas_crockford_quality.html http://developer.yahoo.net/blogs/theater/archives/2007/05/do... For most SoftCo. management this is probably what they think.
zasz 18y ago
I'm all for such groups targeted exclusively for minorities, even if there were no longer any discrimination. Suppose you're a member of minority M, looking to get into group G, which is dominated by members of group D, who are all significantly different in some very obvious way. Wouldn't you personally like a little reassurance from someone else in M who's made it in G, that you too can do well? It's just plain human insecurity. As a girl who takes a lot of CS classes, even though I never experience any hostility from the guys in the classes, it just feels a little weird. I certainly do feel more insecure. Like it or not, just because so many more guys are in these classes, girls form a stereotype of CS as being something for guys and not for them. They have to hear that message from a girl, a living counterexample, to shake that stereotype. Being outnumbered by guys everywhere does nothing but reinforce stereotypes.
- jimbokun 18y ago
  I lived in Japan twice for the summer, and once for a whole year. I was really into Japanese culture and language, and was very excited to immerse myself in the whole experience all 3 times. For the two summers, this was not a problem. I took the same approach for my year long stay. However, after month 4 or 5, I totally burned out. I was spending all week and all weekend speaking Japanese, which I was improving at a lot, but still required a lot more mental effort than speaking English. Beyond that, there are just lots of little cultural things to always be mindful of and this added a small but constant burden, too. It was at this time that I started attending an English speaking church, attended by ex-pats. One thing I discovered was that, even if the person was Taiwanese and we were speaking Japanese because that was the one common language between us, we still agreed on the same things that were weird about Japan. Having this support group made a world of difference. I was still in a Japanese environment, spending most days speaking mostly Japanese, but I had an outlet. I suspect this is what women get from having female connections in the CS/programming world. As much as our society sometimes tries to ignore the fact, men and women are different enough that it is occasionally necessary to get away from the other culture and retreat into your own, even if only to hear someone agree about how weird the other culture can be.
Prrometheus 18y ago
I think most arguments for "diversity" are bullshyt. However, I can see how otherwise qualified female applicants might feel intimidated by an organization that is 95%+ male. Increasing the number of females in the program could therefore increase the average quality of the founder pool. But yes, I don't see any worth in "diversity" for its own sake, unless we are talking about a diversity of skill-sets, knowledge, or something else worth talking about.
- maurycy 18y ago
  Diversity is good because when members have different experiences, and thus point of views. "Point of view is worth 80 IQ points"
  - anamax 18y ago
    > Diversity is good because when members have different experiences, and thus point of views. Wrong. Diversity that brings in useful points of view is good. Diversity that brings in other points of view is bad. > "Point of view is worth 80 IQ points" My cat has a different point of view but I'm pretty sure that she doesn't have anything useful to say about Google App Engine.
    - pinkgarage 18y ago
      If I thought you meant to equate women's point of view with your cat's in any way I would be highly amused--at what you reveal about your own perspectives.
      - anamax 18y ago
        > If I thought you meant to equate women's point of view with your cat's in any way I would be highly amused--at what you reveal about your own perspectives. Cute insinuation. Do you really want to argue that every person can add something useful to any discussion of Google App Engine? Or is it just every woman? If not, then the "diversity" argument fails, at least wrt Google App Engine. While the right points of view add 80 IQ points, some points of view don't add any IQ points, and some even subtract. Gender, orientation, and ethnicity are sometimes good predictors for "useful point of view" but not always. The advantage of using my cat is that she isn't offended when I point out that she doesn't have a useful perspective on something.
silencio 18y ago
>I don't see how sex matters when you're a business person, when you're programming, when you're building things. Sex shouldn't matter, but how people perceive me due to my sex could have an impact on how I do things. I know the following would make me sound like a really passive aggressive person, but I write some awful code when someone pisses me off. One time in school I had no choice over who to partner with, and my partner was this awful guy who told me explicitly that he didn't want to work with me because I was female. In the end I wrote most of the code anyway (all he'd provide is copy-pasted code labelled file1, file2, file3 etc. either cause he just didn't know how to do anything or it was just him being passive aggressive at being forced to work with me), but it ended up being the most obfuscated, profanity-laced code I had ever written. I spent quite a bit of time refactoring and deleting comments before submitting it. I would never do that professionally (instead I go and rant on IRC or twitter for a bit to friends), but I can say I am sometimes tired of the sexism (just like you are tired of the double standard) and it affects me once in a while, and that certainly affects the work I do in myriad ways.
scott_s 18y ago
Your second paragraph is why attempts like this author's exist. The assumption is that the gender imbalance in our field is cultural, not biological. She's trying to fix that imbalance.

by halo 18y ago

SapphireSun 18y ago

While I agree with you for the last two paragraphs, I've started to think that it might be very useful to have a female in the founders or first employees circle. The reason isn't because they are necessarily better, but they are aware of facets of culture that we are not aware of because they grew up in that tribe and we didn't. They would have the same problem vica versa. If you're selling to a broad multisexual audiance, it makes sense to have a confederate in your midst to point out any faux pas you may make.

halo 18y ago
I can see your point although I'm not necessarily sure I agree with it. I don't think I'm any more away of the facets of culture of the average man any more than most women and I don't like to think that women-kind is that distant that it's easy to make faux-pas. I don't object to employing someone for their knowledge of a market though when it's relevant. When in Rome, it might be handy to hire some Romans...
netcan 18y ago
please watch the formatting It stretches the page.

Alex3917 18y ago

This is about equity, not equality. And we do talk about the same things for men when it comes to reading ability and scholastic performance. In fact just a couple weeks ago I posted a review of Peg Tyre's new book The Trouble With Boys.

mhartl 18y ago

Though clearly well-intentioned, these sorts of things have always rubbed me the wrong way, too. It seems they are only acceptable for categories outside the "dominant" set {white, male}. "Women in Engineering" is fine, as is "African Americans in Medicine". And unlike, say, a Gay Men's Chorus, I'd bet they're not particularly accepting of people who don't fit the profile. As a white male, I'm sure I enjoy all sorts of implicit advantages I don't even notice, but it still weirds me out to see groups wear their exclusionary nature not only openly, but with pride.

aston 18y ago
Is your opposition with the fact that minorities are forming groups or that they might be exclusive in nature? If it's the latter, most of them actually aren't--feel free to join your local National Society of Black Engineers chapter.
- mhartl 18y ago
  It's not really opposition, just uneasiness. I believe in voluntary associations, but I think it's a warning sign that it would be hard to form the "National Society of White Engineers" without seeming racist or a "Men in Engineering" group without seeming sexist, even if they accepted anyone who wanted to join. The National Society of Black Engineers, no matter how welcoming they may be in practice, just don't sound like they really want me to show up at their next meeting. And I'm pretty sure the Women in Engineering group at Caltech would have been pissed off if I or any other male Techers had crashed their parties...
  - aston 18y ago
    Well, the pattern isn't "random group of people get-together," it's "severe minority group get-together." Less of a warning sign and more of a general pattern. I think it makes a lot of sense to look for the familiar when you're surrounded by something that is somehow alien to you. And since the groups are often formed because of some exclusion (perceived or real), they're very rarely exclusionary themselves. As a white male in tech, I can see how you might find it difficult to empathize with someone in that situation. Best sort of "imagine if" scenario would be if I dropped you in the middle of a foreign country and you looked around and realized that there were a few Techers there with you. You guys (and gals?) might have some beers together, and if anyone from Turkmenistanians wanted to join you, they could.

abstractbill 18y ago

Startup life is a lot easier when you have a mentor, and it's easier to form that mentor relationship when you have things in common. I don't see anything wrong with female mentors reaching out to other women and offering the opportunity to form these relationships.

sanj 18y ago

Might I suggest that you consider taking part in a class dominated by women? Perhaps something discussing the proto-feminist leanings of Woolf? I'm not kidding. I think you'll find that you're lonely. That you gravitate towards talking to other men in the group. That you feel like your voice isn't heard. That you sense resentment towards you. That your opinion isn't valid. Now imagine going through that every day in your college career. (I'm assuming you're a man. If you're not, then my 97% die roll failed me.)

ajross 18y ago
Indeed. Now add a bunch of chest-pounding chicks writing self-described "controversial rants" about the utter ridiculousness of having a group just for men to feel good about themselves. Hell, the tone of the parent article alone is enough to justify this group. Guys: we already dominate the industry, and will for the rest of our careers. There's no need to be jerks about it. If you don't see the need for a group to which you'll never belong, just keep quiet.
- halo 18y ago
  I find your reply objectionable. I believe you mischaracterised my argument or completely misjudged my tone. At no point did I suggest the original author's point-of-view was "utterly ridiculous", just that I found it frustrating and to try and emphatically explain the reasons why. There is a world of difference there. The introductory comments about it being a "controversial rant" have been mischaracterised - the idea was to try and minimise any offence to the original author, that I knew it was slightly hijacking the thread, that it may be a fringe viewpoint and that the author would probably disagree with my point-of-view. At no point was I aiming for "chest-beating", nor do I believe that was the tone of the post, but I do apologise if it came across as such. I do believe, however, that had the roles been reversed that I would not be offended if someone put their arguments forward as I did to support their point of view. I also quite obviously disagree that I'm a "jerk", and I firmly believe that my opinion still matters despite apparently being the "wrong sex" to be able to have one on this matter and that this sort of discussion is not and should not be out of bounds.
- 18y ago

jwilliams 18y ago

> I guess it comes down to this: I don't see how sex matters when you're a business person, when you're programming, when you're building things. I'm sure you believe this yourself, you behave like this, and you have probably witnessed this a great deal - but this doesn't necessarily generalize. However, there has been a lot of (empirical) research into this area and it's shown that this still is an issue. For example: http://psy.ex.ac.uk/seorg/glasscliff/ http://psy.ex.ac.uk/seorg/glasscliff/

bootload 18y ago

"... I don't see how sex matters when you're a business person, when you're programming, when you're building things ..." Maybe because you are a member (myself included) of a homogeneous monk-like cloistered society that meets daily with your own kind where everyone knows the secret hand-shake and acknowledges you. Given that nobody does lone-programming anymore if you are different you are going to be side-lined. I guess the argument killer here is "put your hands up all those who would trade places as a man to be a women in a male dominated - some say one of the last - in the software industry?". Your argument of course is not a new one. The best example I can think of is hiring musicians for Orchestra. You would think that gender would not be a problem. Surely a musician who is good enough would get a job in a Orchestra based on musical ability in the "12 minute recital" alone? Yet Orchestras have been a male dominated industry ~ http://www.polyphonic.org/panels.php?id=7&day=1 http://www.polyphonic.org/panels.php?id=7&day=1 Read here more on the debate on Orchestral selection and among other things gender. Is this issue another structural issue within Startups where gender dominance is only skills based? Or are there entry hurdles that can be knocked down with some small changes? Don't we all want as many high quality entrepreneurs and Startups to florish? Or is it a "foo only club?" where you can join in as long as you are one of "us"?

trevelyan 18y ago
> Given that nobody does lone-programming anymore Really? I need a support group.
- cabalamat 18y ago
  Me too :-)
- bootload 18y ago
  "... > Given that nobody does lone-programming anymore Really? I need a support group. ..." I'm being facetious. This was a throw away line Doug Crockford gave in a talk I was listening to, "Quality" talk I was listening to the other day (about 10-15m in) ~ http://developer.yahoo.net/blogs/theater/archives/2007/05/douglas_crockford_quality.html http://developer.yahoo.net/blogs/theater/archives/2007/05/do... For most SoftCo. management this is probably what they think.

zasz 18y ago

I'm all for such groups targeted exclusively for minorities, even if there were no longer any discrimination. Suppose you're a member of minority M, looking to get into group G, which is dominated by members of group D, who are all significantly different in some very obvious way. Wouldn't you personally like a little reassurance from someone else in M who's made it in G, that you too can do well? It's just plain human insecurity. As a girl who takes a lot of CS classes, even though I never experience any hostility from the guys in the classes, it just feels a little weird. I certainly do feel more insecure. Like it or not, just because so many more guys are in these classes, girls form a stereotype of CS as being something for guys and not for them. They have to hear that message from a girl, a living counterexample, to shake that stereotype. Being outnumbered by guys everywhere does nothing but reinforce stereotypes.

jimbokun 18y ago
I lived in Japan twice for the summer, and once for a whole year. I was really into Japanese culture and language, and was very excited to immerse myself in the whole experience all 3 times. For the two summers, this was not a problem. I took the same approach for my year long stay. However, after month 4 or 5, I totally burned out. I was spending all week and all weekend speaking Japanese, which I was improving at a lot, but still required a lot more mental effort than speaking English. Beyond that, there are just lots of little cultural things to always be mindful of and this added a small but constant burden, too. It was at this time that I started attending an English speaking church, attended by ex-pats. One thing I discovered was that, even if the person was Taiwanese and we were speaking Japanese because that was the one common language between us, we still agreed on the same things that were weird about Japan. Having this support group made a world of difference. I was still in a Japanese environment, spending most days speaking mostly Japanese, but I had an outlet. I suspect this is what women get from having female connections in the CS/programming world. As much as our society sometimes tries to ignore the fact, men and women are different enough that it is occasionally necessary to get away from the other culture and retreat into your own, even if only to hear someone agree about how weird the other culture can be.

Prrometheus 18y ago

I think most arguments for "diversity" are bullshyt. However, I can see how otherwise qualified female applicants might feel intimidated by an organization that is 95%+ male. Increasing the number of females in the program could therefore increase the average quality of the founder pool. But yes, I don't see any worth in "diversity" for its own sake, unless we are talking about a diversity of skill-sets, knowledge, or something else worth talking about.

maurycy 18y ago
Diversity is good because when members have different experiences, and thus point of views. "Point of view is worth 80 IQ points"
- anamax 18y ago
  > Diversity is good because when members have different experiences, and thus point of views. Wrong. Diversity that brings in useful points of view is good. Diversity that brings in other points of view is bad. > "Point of view is worth 80 IQ points" My cat has a different point of view but I'm pretty sure that she doesn't have anything useful to say about Google App Engine.
  - pinkgarage 18y ago
    If I thought you meant to equate women's point of view with your cat's in any way I would be highly amused--at what you reveal about your own perspectives.
    - anamax 18y ago
      > If I thought you meant to equate women's point of view with your cat's in any way I would be highly amused--at what you reveal about your own perspectives. Cute insinuation. Do you really want to argue that every person can add something useful to any discussion of Google App Engine? Or is it just every woman? If not, then the "diversity" argument fails, at least wrt Google App Engine. While the right points of view add 80 IQ points, some points of view don't add any IQ points, and some even subtract. Gender, orientation, and ethnicity are sometimes good predictors for "useful point of view" but not always. The advantage of using my cat is that she isn't offended when I point out that she doesn't have a useful perspective on something.

silencio 18y ago

>I don't see how sex matters when you're a business person, when you're programming, when you're building things. Sex shouldn't matter, but how people perceive me due to my sex could have an impact on how I do things. I know the following would make me sound like a really passive aggressive person, but I write some awful code when someone pisses me off. One time in school I had no choice over who to partner with, and my partner was this awful guy who told me explicitly that he didn't want to work with me because I was female. In the end I wrote most of the code anyway (all he'd provide is copy-pasted code labelled file1, file2, file3 etc. either cause he just didn't know how to do anything or it was just him being passive aggressive at being forced to work with me), but it ended up being the most obfuscated, profanity-laced code I had ever written. I spent quite a bit of time refactoring and deleting comments before submitting it. I would never do that professionally (instead I go and rant on IRC or twitter for a bit to friends), but I can say I am sometimes tired of the sexism (just like you are tired of the double standard) and it affects me once in a while, and that certainly affects the work I do in myriad ways.

scott_s 18y ago

Your second paragraph is why attempts like this author's exist. The assumption is that the gender imbalance in our field is cultural, not biological. She's trying to fix that imbalance.