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This "Safari is IE" is getting tired and has never been true. Apple is quite literally on governing members for Alliance for Open Media. Safari existing has ne

by riolu 4y ago

This "Safari is IE" is getting tired and has never been true. Apple is quite literally on governing members for Alliance for Open Media. Safari existing has never held anyone back. The "plausible solution" is to be patient for Apple to implement AV1.

p1necone 4y ago
Sure it's nowhere near as bad relatively speaking as IE was at it's worst, but Safari is still consistently slower to make new features available than other major browsers. This still isn't really a problem (if it gets bad enough, devs will just stop supporting it), except for on iOS where it's the only browser available, so not supporting them is not an option.
- MBCook 4y ago
  > …but Safari is still consistently slower to make new features available than other major browsers See I’m not so sure that’s a problem. Many of the things they haven’t added I’m glad they didn’t. I like that they aren’t just rushing to implement everything someone proposes or a competitor ships. I don’t think that’s a bad thing.
  - p1necone 4y ago
    When I say features I mean actual HTML standards, not just random features browser vendors decide to implement.
    - tambourine_man 4y ago
      Safari's priorities are different from Chrome's. Google is effectively shipping a cross-platform “metaplatform”, for which the browser is the trojan horse. Apple is shipping a web browser that only runs on its OS and hardware. So Webkit is slow or unwilling to implement features that may hinder battery life, user privacy or that simply have better native alternatives. Webkit is actually on the forefront when it comes to CSS features, like the recent has() selector, or JS memory usage and overall page speed. What I think is a fair criticism is that Safari is generally tied to the OS and gets outdated when the user is unable to upgrade the OS (or oblivious). Evergreen browsers are a revolutionaty concept, not without its drawbacks, but all in all, were very positive to the web.
      - MBCook 4y ago
        I use Safari but I would prefer it wasn’t shipped on the same schedule as the OS. I understand why (I think) but I’d rather have more frequent updates, even if only every 3 months or so. That’s a problem with most Apple apps. Bug in Mail? Better hope it gets fixed in the next iOS or MacOS point release. Because the fix isn’t coming out earlier.
        tambourine_man 4y ago
        Yeah, but I think Mail is in a different league. A browser is so fundamental to modern computing that if you can't run the latest version, you might as well have a paper weight. You can run mail, office, games, all in the browser if the native alternatives fail you. Chrome still supporting High Sierra is what makes old Macs usable.
        threeseed 4y ago
        Safari Developer Preview is stable and available out of sync with the OS. It does make sense that it is shipped with the OS since Safari is just a wrapper around the OS WebKit library which is used across many apps and services.
        tambourine_man 4y ago
        Safari Developer Preview requires the latest versions of the OS, so it's not of much use. The WebKit library should be always stable. In that case, I don't see a problem with other apps relying upon it.
    - dmitriid 4y ago
      How many of those "actual HTML standards" in the past 10 years are actual standards and not "whatever Google scribbled on a napkin and pretended it was a standard"?
- alwillis 4y ago
  but Safari is still consistently slower to make new features available than other major browsers. Safari was the first browser to ship the most anticipated web feature of the last 3-4 years by web developers: the parent selector :has() [1] back in March. When you check the Interop 2022 dashboard [2], Safari Technology Preview is ahead of both Firefox nightly and Chrome dev for the shipping the latest web features. Safari Technology Preview is passing 97% of the interop tests. In case nobody noticed, the WebKit team kicked ass by shipping a ton of new features this year: * dialog element * lazy loading * inert * :has() pseudo-class * new viewport units * Cascade Layers * focus visible * accent color * appearance * font palettes for color fonts * BroadcastChannel * Web Locks API * File System Access API * enhancements to WebAssembly * support for Display-P3 in canvas * additions to COOP and COEP * container queries * subgrid * web push * shared workers * CSS Offset Path * AVIF * Passkeys Plus it’s faster and has better battery life on macOS than either Chrome or Firefox. What’s not to like? [1]: https://webkit.org/blog/12445/new-webkit-features-in-safari-15-4/#css https://webkit.org/blog/12445/new-webkit-features-in-safari-... [2]: https://wpt.fyi/interop-2022 https://wpt.fyi/interop-2022
  - Shish2k 4y ago
    > Safari Technology Preview is ahead My userbase isn’t using Safari Technology Preview, they’re using Safari > the most anticipated web feature I’m curious how you measured this - I have yet to be interested in :has(), but I am very interested in AV1 and PWA features...
    - Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
      Another point here: you can't update safari without updating ios itself. That means people who don't update or have old devices won't get new fetures. Also, safari STILL doesn't support a lot of new wasm extensions. So not really the picture GP is painting.
      - alwillis 4y ago
        Another point here: you can't update safari without updating ios itself. True. But each release of iOS gets to around 90% of the installed base by the time the next version of iOS gets rolled out; it’s non-issue for the vast majority of iOS users. iOS 15 was updated 12 times [1] between September 2021 and July 2022; iOS users either got bug fixes or new features (usually both) in Safari each time, including users of the iPhone 6s, which shipped September 2015, more than 7 years ago. Also, safari STILL doesn't support a lot of new wasm extensions. According to caniuse [2], Safari’s WASM support seems to be just as current as Chrome and Firefox. [1]: Version Build Release Date 15.0 19A341, 19A346 September 20, 2021 15.0.1 19A348 October 1, 2021 15.0.2 19A404 October 11, 2021 15.1 19B74 October 25, 2021 15.1.1 19B81 November 17, 2021 15.2 19C56, 19C57 December 13, 2021 15.2.1 19C63 January 12, 2022 15.3 19D50 January 26, 2022 15.3.1 19D52 February 10, 2022 15.4 19E241 March 14, 2022 15.4.1 19E258 March 31, 2022 15.5 19F77 May 16, 2022 15.6 19G71 July 20, 2022 [2]: https://caniuse.com/?search=wasm https://caniuse.com/?search=wasm

by riolu 4y ago

p1necone 4y ago

Sure it's nowhere near as bad relatively speaking as IE was at it's worst, but Safari is still consistently slower to make new features available than other major browsers. This still isn't really a problem (if it gets bad enough, devs will just stop supporting it), except for on iOS where it's the only browser available, so not supporting them is not an option.

MBCook 4y ago
> …but Safari is still consistently slower to make new features available than other major browsers See I’m not so sure that’s a problem. Many of the things they haven’t added I’m glad they didn’t. I like that they aren’t just rushing to implement everything someone proposes or a competitor ships. I don’t think that’s a bad thing.
- p1necone 4y ago
  When I say features I mean actual HTML standards, not just random features browser vendors decide to implement.
  - tambourine_man 4y ago
    Safari's priorities are different from Chrome's. Google is effectively shipping a cross-platform “metaplatform”, for which the browser is the trojan horse. Apple is shipping a web browser that only runs on its OS and hardware. So Webkit is slow or unwilling to implement features that may hinder battery life, user privacy or that simply have better native alternatives. Webkit is actually on the forefront when it comes to CSS features, like the recent has() selector, or JS memory usage and overall page speed. What I think is a fair criticism is that Safari is generally tied to the OS and gets outdated when the user is unable to upgrade the OS (or oblivious). Evergreen browsers are a revolutionaty concept, not without its drawbacks, but all in all, were very positive to the web.
    - MBCook 4y ago
      I use Safari but I would prefer it wasn’t shipped on the same schedule as the OS. I understand why (I think) but I’d rather have more frequent updates, even if only every 3 months or so. That’s a problem with most Apple apps. Bug in Mail? Better hope it gets fixed in the next iOS or MacOS point release. Because the fix isn’t coming out earlier.
      - tambourine_man 4y ago
        Yeah, but I think Mail is in a different league. A browser is so fundamental to modern computing that if you can't run the latest version, you might as well have a paper weight. You can run mail, office, games, all in the browser if the native alternatives fail you. Chrome still supporting High Sierra is what makes old Macs usable.
      - threeseed 4y ago
        Safari Developer Preview is stable and available out of sync with the OS. It does make sense that it is shipped with the OS since Safari is just a wrapper around the OS WebKit library which is used across many apps and services.
        tambourine_man 4y ago
        Safari Developer Preview requires the latest versions of the OS, so it's not of much use. The WebKit library should be always stable. In that case, I don't see a problem with other apps relying upon it.
  - dmitriid 4y ago
    How many of those "actual HTML standards" in the past 10 years are actual standards and not "whatever Google scribbled on a napkin and pretended it was a standard"?
alwillis 4y ago
but Safari is still consistently slower to make new features available than other major browsers. Safari was the first browser to ship the most anticipated web feature of the last 3-4 years by web developers: the parent selector :has() [1] back in March. When you check the Interop 2022 dashboard [2], Safari Technology Preview is ahead of both Firefox nightly and Chrome dev for the shipping the latest web features. Safari Technology Preview is passing 97% of the interop tests. In case nobody noticed, the WebKit team kicked ass by shipping a ton of new features this year: * dialog element * lazy loading * inert * :has() pseudo-class * new viewport units * Cascade Layers * focus visible * accent color * appearance * font palettes for color fonts * BroadcastChannel * Web Locks API * File System Access API * enhancements to WebAssembly * support for Display-P3 in canvas * additions to COOP and COEP * container queries * subgrid * web push * shared workers * CSS Offset Path * AVIF * Passkeys Plus it’s faster and has better battery life on macOS than either Chrome or Firefox. What’s not to like? [1]: https://webkit.org/blog/12445/new-webkit-features-in-safari-15-4/#css https://webkit.org/blog/12445/new-webkit-features-in-safari-... [2]: https://wpt.fyi/interop-2022 https://wpt.fyi/interop-2022
- Shish2k 4y ago
  > Safari Technology Preview is ahead My userbase isn’t using Safari Technology Preview, they’re using Safari > the most anticipated web feature I’m curious how you measured this - I have yet to be interested in :has(), but I am very interested in AV1 and PWA features...
  - Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
    Another point here: you can't update safari without updating ios itself. That means people who don't update or have old devices won't get new fetures. Also, safari STILL doesn't support a lot of new wasm extensions. So not really the picture GP is painting.
    - alwillis 4y ago
      Another point here: you can't update safari without updating ios itself. True. But each release of iOS gets to around 90% of the installed base by the time the next version of iOS gets rolled out; it’s non-issue for the vast majority of iOS users. iOS 15 was updated 12 times [1] between September 2021 and July 2022; iOS users either got bug fixes or new features (usually both) in Safari each time, including users of the iPhone 6s, which shipped September 2015, more than 7 years ago. Also, safari STILL doesn't support a lot of new wasm extensions. According to caniuse [2], Safari’s WASM support seems to be just as current as Chrome and Firefox. [1]: Version Build Release Date 15.0 19A341, 19A346 September 20, 2021 15.0.1 19A348 October 1, 2021 15.0.2 19A404 October 11, 2021 15.1 19B74 October 25, 2021 15.1.1 19B81 November 17, 2021 15.2 19C56, 19C57 December 13, 2021 15.2.1 19C63 January 12, 2022 15.3 19D50 January 26, 2022 15.3.1 19D52 February 10, 2022 15.4 19E241 March 14, 2022 15.4.1 19E258 March 31, 2022 15.5 19F77 May 16, 2022 15.6 19G71 July 20, 2022 [2]: https://caniuse.com/?search=wasm https://caniuse.com/?search=wasm