11 ms·

I'm living in Barcelona, I don't own a car (and hopefully never will need to) and I'm a fan of getting rid of cars in downtown areas. But there are few downside

I'm living in Barcelona, I don't own a car (and hopefully never will need to) and I'm a fan of getting rid of cars in downtown areas. But there are few downsides. Horrible pollution while they are making them, due to street closures (I'm right next to a new one under construction and I've never experienced air pollution this bad in my 20 years here. It's horrible walking my kids to school. And it will be a 9 month construction job). Also once the superblocks are built, crime increases (no traffic ie witnesses) and rents increase (pedestrian friendly area!). This has happened in other superblock areas near me.

msoad 4y ago
I'm not sure if chopped corners area a required feature of Super Blocks but man those are annoying zebra lines... You have to walk 10 meters more to use the zebra line on each intersection!
- Swizec 4y ago
  Scramble intersections can fix this. Let all pedestrians in every direction go first, then coordinate cars, then back to pedestrians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedestrian_scramble https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedestrian_scramble And I thought 2nd paragraph from Wikipedia offers an interesting insight on cultural priorities: > It was first used in Canada and the United States in the late 1940s, but it later fell out of favor with traffic engineers there, as it was seen as prioritizing flow of pedestrians over flow of car traffic. Its benefits for pedestrian amenity and safety have led to new examples being installed in many countries in recent years
  - scrumbledober 4y ago
    I think they still do, but they at least used to have this in the SF Financial District, it was always fun walking out to lunch with hordes of people all crossing the street whichever way they wanted, including diagonally through the intersection.
    - jlmorton 4y ago
      They really need to put down some "suggested path" markings.
    - ghaff 4y ago
      In big eastern US cities, there's been much more of a "whatever won't get you run down" approach to intersections than was historically the case out west. At least a couple decades ago, western cities had a reputation for ticketing pedestrians for crossing against lights that would have been laughable in e.g. NYC.
      - borbulon 4y ago
        9 years ago when I worked in Downtown Seattle, crossing against the light could get you a ticket, even at 630 in the morning. Nobody was driving, and they still insisted that you wait.
  - FpUser 4y ago
    We have this type of intersection in Toronto, Canada. Yonge & Bloor I think.
- RobertoG 4y ago
  I assume you are talking about L'Eixample. That's the original design of that specific neighborhood and have nothing to do with the superblocks thing.
- SECProto 4y ago
  > man those are annoying zebra lines... You have to walk 10 meters more to use the zebra line on each intersection! Unless you are trying to cross perpendicularly, then you have to walk 10 meters less. Averages out to being similar (and isn't annoying to use in person). Regardless, it shortens the crossing length, and puts crossing pedestrians at a perpendicular angle to turning drivers, both of which drastically increase pedestrian safety.
RobertoG 4y ago
Crime increase and rents increase? That's some surprising finding. What are those superblocks where that happened exactly? And where is the 9 month construction job?
- judge2020 4y ago
  I can definitely see rents increase. A walkable city is one where you don’t need a car (you only need to rent one if you go on a road trip or you can fly/bus to wherever you like) NOR car insurance. Given that, if you’re an apartment management company, and your prospective tenants have an extra $100-500 a month in change, would you or would you not raise rents, given the demand for an apartment in a walkable city is huge?
  - jeffalyanak 4y ago
    I guess the surprise comes from the fact that there's a lot of supply as well.
  - lmm 4y ago
    It's the idea of both at once that's implausible. Making it more walkable would gentrify it and raise rents? Sure, I can see that. But the idea that this would also somehow increase crime? Pedestrians are much more able to see or intervene in a crime than drivers are.
    - TEP_Kim_Il_Sung 4y ago
      I wonder if using tools like https://communitycrimemap.com https://communitycrimemap.com would help with city design. Just off the glances I've made: Most crimes happen in easily accessible areas with clear getaway routes, almost no crimes happen at the center cul de sac of a neighbourhood.
    - lazyasciiart 4y ago
      Sounds like an explanation there - pedestrians see and are involved with more crime, reported crime rates go up?
msla 4y ago
> I'm a fan of getting rid of cars in downtown areas. I have two questions: Do emergency services count as cars? Do people who have to take call to provide emergency medical care still get to use cars?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- housingisaright 4y ago
  cars or other vehicles required to provide services prohibited. The aim is to make people use other modes of transportation than their cars in these areas.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    Pedestrian areas basically always allow vehicles for emergency services, deliveries, tradespeople, etc. where practical. And there can actually be a fair number of vehicles especially at certain times of the day.
- diordiderot 4y ago
  > Do emergency services count as cars? No
  - msla 4y ago
    Object lesson in why you always ask one question: If you ask two, people answer the less interesting one to the exclusion of the other. So emergency vehicles can drive in. Can emergency workers drive out?
    - rdedev 4y ago
      One solution to this is to have special vehicles to take emergency workers or doctors from their home to the hospital or where ever they need to be. It's also better than just them driving to the hospital. They don't need to worry about traffic and such
frontiersummit 4y ago
Superblocks seem like they would be super-fun for a 24-year-old single or someone visiting on holiday, but would be a logistical nightmare for a young family. Is this so? or am I a frog stuck in a car-dependency well?
- diordiderot 4y ago
  Great for young families. Some superblocks sometimes have parks or playgrounds, you never have to worry about your kids getting run over or thrown in the back of a van, more people hang out outside because it isn't sulfery or loud.
  - tayo42 4y ago
    i never want to live around kids or playgrounds again though. right now families dump their kids into the streets after school. its a nightmare to live around. the noise is non stop
    - robswc 4y ago
      Might be unpopular but completely agree. I once lived next to a dog park. I love dogs... but damn, lol. People yelling at their dogs. Dogs barking at other dogs. Dogs whining, dogs howling... it was awful.
  - agilob 4y ago
    > it isn't sulfery or loud. I lived in one super-like-block in Poland and noise was the reason I had to move out. About 200 flats facing each other, you need only one person to ruin day or night for everyone there. One party at night and you have 600 people who couldn't sleep. One specific neighbour was listening to music from loudspeakers literally all day causing echo in the block. She turned volume up when cleaning and vacuuming, she had to still hear the music WHILE vacuuming. Never want to live to such block ever again, not anywhere close.
    - diordiderot 4y ago
anigbrowl 4y ago
I envy you a bit. Living in an urban residential area i'm just now getting to the end of 2.5 years of poorly managed construction by the private landlord next to my own home. I got to the point of initiating legal action before they decided to cash out their investment and sell the property to a charitable foundation, who have been far easier to deal with. I do feel you on the problems, but the idea of the construction job being complete in only a 9 month timeframe sounds like a luxury.
andrepd 4y ago
> Also once the superblocks are built, crime increases (no traffic ie witnesses) No offense but this sounds like a classic reactionary anti-bike cliché, so would you mind sharing some sources?
- godmode2019 4y ago
  Would you rather your wife walk in a park during the day or night? The OP is drawing some pretty common sense conclusions, they are essential turning busy streets into quiet alleyways.
  - amusedcyclist 4y ago
    He asked for proof not for cliches
  - SECProto 4y ago
    > Would you rather your wife walk in a park during the day or night? Would you rather walk on a highway shoulder or a residential street? Ears on the street is what matters, not cars on the road.
  - lmm 4y ago
    Much of the point of the idea is that you can fit more humans in the same street space by not having each one drag their own living room around with them. And a pedestrian is in a much better position to notice (or indeed intervene in) a crime than a driver is.
  - crote 4y ago
    No, they are replacing cars (who solely look at the road ahead of them) with pedestrians (who are actually using the space and looking around). In fact, there will be more people on the streets. The lack of cars makes it possible to use the spare space for playgrounds, skate parks, outdoor restaurant seating, additional shops, et cetera. And the streets don't suddenly narrow: they are still 70 feet wide, they don't magically turn into tiny alleyways the second you remove car traffic. I can tell you from experience that many well-designed parks are even very busy after nightfall. No reason to feel afraid when there are literally a hundred people within eyesight.
TulliusCicero 4y ago
> rents increase (pedestrian friendly area!). This has happened in other superblock areas near me. This happens whenever you improve anything in a city. The solution is to make the improvements everywhere if you can. We obviously can't stop making nice things just because it makes some areas more desirable.
- epistasis 4y ago
  The Henry George Theorem states that when there are government improvements (which I would probably expand to any improvements), then the land rents increase at least as much as spending. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_George_theorem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_George_theorem The remedy (at least according to Henry George) is to not only continue improving, but also to tax away the land rents, and most likely distribute them equally to all residents. This also means that whenever there's an improvement to, say, transit that is actually beneficial to the community, it can be more than self-funding by taxing land rents.
  - TulliusCicero 4y ago
    Yeah I'd love to see some value capture in the West.
adv0r 4y ago
crimes??
yosito 4y ago
I'd be willing to bet that the air pollution from a 9 month construction job is outweighed by the air pollution from steady car traffic for years. And as someone who has been robbed in traffic multiple times, I don't think traffic witnesses stop crime. Pedestrian witnesses and good lighting might though. Yeah, property values and rent might go up, but that's hardly an argument against environmental improvements.

msoad 4y ago

I'm not sure if chopped corners area a required feature of Super Blocks but man those are annoying zebra lines... You have to walk 10 meters more to use the zebra line on each intersection!

Swizec 4y ago
Scramble intersections can fix this. Let all pedestrians in every direction go first, then coordinate cars, then back to pedestrians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedestrian_scramble https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedestrian_scramble And I thought 2nd paragraph from Wikipedia offers an interesting insight on cultural priorities: > It was first used in Canada and the United States in the late 1940s, but it later fell out of favor with traffic engineers there, as it was seen as prioritizing flow of pedestrians over flow of car traffic. Its benefits for pedestrian amenity and safety have led to new examples being installed in many countries in recent years
- scrumbledober 4y ago
  I think they still do, but they at least used to have this in the SF Financial District, it was always fun walking out to lunch with hordes of people all crossing the street whichever way they wanted, including diagonally through the intersection.
  - jlmorton 4y ago
    They really need to put down some "suggested path" markings.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    In big eastern US cities, there's been much more of a "whatever won't get you run down" approach to intersections than was historically the case out west. At least a couple decades ago, western cities had a reputation for ticketing pedestrians for crossing against lights that would have been laughable in e.g. NYC.
    - borbulon 4y ago
      9 years ago when I worked in Downtown Seattle, crossing against the light could get you a ticket, even at 630 in the morning. Nobody was driving, and they still insisted that you wait.
- FpUser 4y ago
  We have this type of intersection in Toronto, Canada. Yonge & Bloor I think.
RobertoG 4y ago
I assume you are talking about L'Eixample. That's the original design of that specific neighborhood and have nothing to do with the superblocks thing.
SECProto 4y ago
> man those are annoying zebra lines... You have to walk 10 meters more to use the zebra line on each intersection! Unless you are trying to cross perpendicularly, then you have to walk 10 meters less. Averages out to being similar (and isn't annoying to use in person). Regardless, it shortens the crossing length, and puts crossing pedestrians at a perpendicular angle to turning drivers, both of which drastically increase pedestrian safety.

RobertoG 4y ago

Crime increase and rents increase? That's some surprising finding. What are those superblocks where that happened exactly? And where is the 9 month construction job?

judge2020 4y ago
I can definitely see rents increase. A walkable city is one where you don’t need a car (you only need to rent one if you go on a road trip or you can fly/bus to wherever you like) NOR car insurance. Given that, if you’re an apartment management company, and your prospective tenants have an extra $100-500 a month in change, would you or would you not raise rents, given the demand for an apartment in a walkable city is huge?
- jeffalyanak 4y ago
  I guess the surprise comes from the fact that there's a lot of supply as well.
- lmm 4y ago
  It's the idea of both at once that's implausible. Making it more walkable would gentrify it and raise rents? Sure, I can see that. But the idea that this would also somehow increase crime? Pedestrians are much more able to see or intervene in a crime than drivers are.
  - TEP_Kim_Il_Sung 4y ago
    I wonder if using tools like https://communitycrimemap.com https://communitycrimemap.com would help with city design. Just off the glances I've made: Most crimes happen in easily accessible areas with clear getaway routes, almost no crimes happen at the center cul de sac of a neighbourhood.
  - lazyasciiart 4y ago
    Sounds like an explanation there - pedestrians see and are involved with more crime, reported crime rates go up?

msla 4y ago

> I'm a fan of getting rid of cars in downtown areas. I have two questions: Do emergency services count as cars? Do people who have to take call to provide emergency medical care still get to use cars?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
housingisaright 4y ago
cars or other vehicles required to provide services prohibited. The aim is to make people use other modes of transportation than their cars in these areas.
- ghaff 4y ago
  Pedestrian areas basically always allow vehicles for emergency services, deliveries, tradespeople, etc. where practical. And there can actually be a fair number of vehicles especially at certain times of the day.
diordiderot 4y ago
> Do emergency services count as cars? No
- msla 4y ago
  Object lesson in why you always ask one question: If you ask two, people answer the less interesting one to the exclusion of the other. So emergency vehicles can drive in. Can emergency workers drive out?
  - rdedev 4y ago
    One solution to this is to have special vehicles to take emergency workers or doctors from their home to the hospital or where ever they need to be. It's also better than just them driving to the hospital. They don't need to worry about traffic and such

frontiersummit 4y ago

Superblocks seem like they would be super-fun for a 24-year-old single or someone visiting on holiday, but would be a logistical nightmare for a young family. Is this so? or am I a frog stuck in a car-dependency well?

diordiderot 4y ago
Great for young families. Some superblocks sometimes have parks or playgrounds, you never have to worry about your kids getting run over or thrown in the back of a van, more people hang out outside because it isn't sulfery or loud.
- tayo42 4y ago
  i never want to live around kids or playgrounds again though. right now families dump their kids into the streets after school. its a nightmare to live around. the noise is non stop
  - robswc 4y ago
    Might be unpopular but completely agree. I once lived next to a dog park. I love dogs... but damn, lol. People yelling at their dogs. Dogs barking at other dogs. Dogs whining, dogs howling... it was awful.
- agilob 4y ago
  > it isn't sulfery or loud. I lived in one super-like-block in Poland and noise was the reason I had to move out. About 200 flats facing each other, you need only one person to ruin day or night for everyone there. One party at night and you have 600 people who couldn't sleep. One specific neighbour was listening to music from loudspeakers literally all day causing echo in the block. She turned volume up when cleaning and vacuuming, she had to still hear the music WHILE vacuuming. Never want to live to such block ever again, not anywhere close.
  - diordiderot 4y ago

anigbrowl 4y ago

I envy you a bit. Living in an urban residential area i'm just now getting to the end of 2.5 years of poorly managed construction by the private landlord next to my own home. I got to the point of initiating legal action before they decided to cash out their investment and sell the property to a charitable foundation, who have been far easier to deal with. I do feel you on the problems, but the idea of the construction job being complete in only a 9 month timeframe sounds like a luxury.

andrepd 4y ago

> Also once the superblocks are built, crime increases (no traffic ie witnesses) No offense but this sounds like a classic reactionary anti-bike cliché, so would you mind sharing some sources?

godmode2019 4y ago
Would you rather your wife walk in a park during the day or night? The OP is drawing some pretty common sense conclusions, they are essential turning busy streets into quiet alleyways.
- amusedcyclist 4y ago
  He asked for proof not for cliches
- SECProto 4y ago
  > Would you rather your wife walk in a park during the day or night? Would you rather walk on a highway shoulder or a residential street? Ears on the street is what matters, not cars on the road.
- lmm 4y ago
  Much of the point of the idea is that you can fit more humans in the same street space by not having each one drag their own living room around with them. And a pedestrian is in a much better position to notice (or indeed intervene in) a crime than a driver is.
- crote 4y ago
  No, they are replacing cars (who solely look at the road ahead of them) with pedestrians (who are actually using the space and looking around). In fact, there will be more people on the streets. The lack of cars makes it possible to use the spare space for playgrounds, skate parks, outdoor restaurant seating, additional shops, et cetera. And the streets don't suddenly narrow: they are still 70 feet wide, they don't magically turn into tiny alleyways the second you remove car traffic. I can tell you from experience that many well-designed parks are even very busy after nightfall. No reason to feel afraid when there are literally a hundred people within eyesight.

TulliusCicero 4y ago

> rents increase (pedestrian friendly area!). This has happened in other superblock areas near me. This happens whenever you improve anything in a city. The solution is to make the improvements everywhere if you can. We obviously can't stop making nice things just because it makes some areas more desirable.

epistasis 4y ago
The Henry George Theorem states that when there are government improvements (which I would probably expand to any improvements), then the land rents increase at least as much as spending. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_George_theorem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_George_theorem The remedy (at least according to Henry George) is to not only continue improving, but also to tax away the land rents, and most likely distribute them equally to all residents. This also means that whenever there's an improvement to, say, transit that is actually beneficial to the community, it can be more than self-funding by taxing land rents.
- TulliusCicero 4y ago
  Yeah I'd love to see some value capture in the West.

adv0r 4y ago

crimes??

yosito 4y ago

I'd be willing to bet that the air pollution from a 9 month construction job is outweighed by the air pollution from steady car traffic for years. And as someone who has been robbed in traffic multiple times, I don't think traffic witnesses stop crime. Pedestrian witnesses and good lighting might though. Yeah, property values and rent might go up, but that's hardly an argument against environmental improvements.