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I feel like a lot of people who ride motorcycles care more about headlight aesthetics than headlight safety (myself included). I don't really see "other people

I feel like a lot of people who ride motorcycles care more about headlight aesthetics than headlight safety (myself included). I don't really see "other people react to my presence" as a particularly good strategy for staying alive on a motorcycle. The best way to not die is to assume everyone is doing their best to kill you in a stupid way all of the time. TBQH I've had more close calls when people saw me and reacted in an unpredictable way than because someone didn't see me, but that's just my anecdata. (and most of my memorable close calls were on a pedal bike, so only sorta related, but still feels applicable) I'm not saying that having better headlights doesn't matter, I just don't think it matters a lot compared to all the other risks involved in riding a motorcycle. I'd be surprised if the set of "accidents that would have been prevented if someone was able to detect you 1 second earlier from head on" was particularly big.

Jcampuzano2 4y ago
I'm a rider myself, I rarely have close calls and I chop it up to basically the same anecdotal data. But at least for the US where I live and the standards for getting a license seem to be much worse than many other parts of the world I've visited/heard of, I'd wager a decent part of it is simply rider skill. I know way too many riders who never practice, can barely pull a U-turn from a stop, don't know how to use their front brake effectively, and vastly overestimate their abilities. And then if a car even dares to accidentally not see them because they sat in their blind spot they flip a shit. I know riders who are very good, but unfortunately in the place I live I know many many more who are just not very good and ride very unaware of everything around them. And unlike driving a car, there is a different skill floor/ceiling to be considered competent.
- sgt 4y ago
  Yes! Rider education and constantly practicing is key. It also helps you enjoy motorcycling more too.
  - aussiesnack 4y ago
    > Rider education and constantly practicing is key. It also helps you enjoy motorcycling more too. I don't think many non-motorcyclists get this aspect of riding, ie. that the activity itself is one to be honed and reflected on, and that treating it this way makes the mere act of transporting yourself from one place to another (which is essentially dead time for many car drivers) a keen and vital part of life.
    - ok_dad 4y ago
      That's an interesting thought: the less you ride the worse you are, so you absolutely have to ride often to maintain your safety profile. I imagine one of the least safe things might be an experienced rider not being able to ride for a while, and not taking that into account. I'm less angry at my neighbors with loud bikes riding all the time, thanks to your comment, because at least they are staying safer than if they just did it once a month or something (and I do like my neighbors, aside from 5am VROOM-VROOM noises).
      - Jcampuzano2 4y ago
        Riding a lot absolutely helps get better, but there is also such a thing as deliberate practice for uncommon situations. Riding 100000 miles straight is very different from riding 10000 miles in twisty turns, around sharp corners, practicing your emergency-braking, etc. Even if its just 5 minutes or so doing these a week, it makes you a vastly better rider. Every time I have to take extended time away from riding for some reason, I always immediately start off with a parking lot session of riding around, getting back into the groove. It doesn't take very long for it all to come back with just a bit of deliberate practice. But there are what we call weekend warriors, and many, especially in the US store away their bike for half the year as well. There are many riders who barely put more than even a couple thousand miles a year on their bikes. And these are some of the most dangerous riders to be around, especially if they have an ego.
      - aussiesnack 4y ago
        This is definitely the case. I don't trust myself when I've had a few weeks off the bike until I've done some proper practise again. The biggest obvious drop-off is attention - mind-wandering is verboten when riding, and creeps back if you're not used to maintaining concentration. Specific skills like front-brake control also need maintenance, and can always improve, whatever the experience level, as they're pretty subtle. A fortiori for reading the road and driver behaviour. > I'm less angry at my neighbors with loud bikes riding all the time Well that's pleasantly tolerant. The consideration should work both ways, but the nature of some of the motorcyclist population doesn't always lend itself that way unfortunately.
- dntrkv 4y ago
  > And then if a car even dares to accidentally not see them because they sat in their blind spot they flip a shit Oh god, that is the most annoying complaint I ever hear. Such a common post on any moto-focused discussion site. Usually involves an idiot on a bike cruising next to a car and then overreacting when the car begins to merge into their lane. Happens all the fucking time if you've ridden for longer than a day. Get over it and get better at anticipating it. Two rules of riding that have kept me safe for a couple hundred thousand miles of riding: 1. Always assume the cars next to you will merge into your lane. 2. ABP, Always Be Passing. Going at the flow of traffic is dangerous. Going slower than traffic is even more dangerous.
  - thot_experiment 4y ago
    ABP, Always Be Passing. This cannot be overstated, it's a lot easier to deal with problems in your field of vision than ones rapidly approaching from behind. That's also why filtering is so important, and it's heinous that it's not allowed in some (most?) states. If you're able to filter you can use your superior acceleration to always be ahead of cars. It's true of bikes too, that's why treating red lights as stop signs on a bicycle is something that needs wider legal adoption. I often do it anyway and it means that in city traffic I am sometimes able to traverse a block without ever being passed by a car.
    - NoPicklez 4y ago
      "treating red lights as stop signs" as in being able to go through red lights? Or am I mistaken?
      - thot_experiment 4y ago
        I'm not sure I understand your question precisely, but this article will probably answer it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop
        NoPicklez 4y ago
juve1996 4y ago
Being more visible will always help but you still have to ATGATT and drive defensively.
- BareNakedCoder 4y ago
  For the non-riders, ATGATT means "All The Gear, All The Time". I wince whenever I see some young kid and his girlfriend riding with t-shirt, short pants, and sandals. Human erasers on donor cycles :(
  - ddoolin 4y ago
    I think the gearless rider by age curve is mostly a bell. Those I see riding in full gear are either young or old (55+ if I had to guess) but not usually in the middle. It's obviously biased but I'm 31 and everyone I knew and know always ride in full gear.
    - Jcampuzano2 4y ago
      I agree. I know many riders who say they only started wearing gear because they had kids, so this would align with a bell curve as they decide not to anymore once their kids are grown/independent. I'm 30 with no plans for kids, and have always worn all my gear since the beginning. What some people don't realize is if you don't wear gear and you get hit even completely accidentally or its the riders fault, your chances of dying and causing emotional damage to not only those you love, but the other party in the accident are just not worth it. I.E. giving another driver PTSD for the rest of their life because they feel like they killed someone even in the situation it wasn't their fault.
devmunchies 4y ago
> a lot of people who ride motorcycles care more about [...] aesthetics than [...] safety true, I ride with a traffic vest[1] on (which hides my expensive leather jacket!) and I'm probably deducted 40% in coolness points, but i figure I'm able to compound the little coolness points I get over a longer period. I wouldn't have done it in my 20s but now I am in my 30s and have kids so safety is more important. I've definitely noticed more people rotate their head to look at me since I've started wearing it. [1]: https://reesdistributors.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/V1020750_hr.jpg https://reesdistributors.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/V102...
frontiersummit 4y ago
People choose their vehicles for both functional purposes and sociocultural purposes. In somewhere like Manilla, a motorcycle has net positive functional utility since it is cheap, can park easily, and cut through traffic. In somewhere like Houston (where the study was authored), a motorcycle has net negative functional utility, given the humidity, rain, ample parking, and lack of lane splitting. That means riding is done for sociocultural purposes: to signal who you are by how you move about. For someone who is riding mainly for this reason, will they adopt a new light pattern, especially if it means adding a lamp to their head?
- daveidol 4y ago
  > That means riding is done for sociocultural purposes: to signal who you are by how you move about. There’s another reason: for fun and recreation - not necessarily for utility or to show off to others.
roflyear 4y ago
Yeah. The same people who say "loud pipes save lives" are going to be the same people who say this is stupid and who cares.

Jcampuzano2 4y ago

I'm a rider myself, I rarely have close calls and I chop it up to basically the same anecdotal data. But at least for the US where I live and the standards for getting a license seem to be much worse than many other parts of the world I've visited/heard of, I'd wager a decent part of it is simply rider skill. I know way too many riders who never practice, can barely pull a U-turn from a stop, don't know how to use their front brake effectively, and vastly overestimate their abilities. And then if a car even dares to accidentally not see them because they sat in their blind spot they flip a shit. I know riders who are very good, but unfortunately in the place I live I know many many more who are just not very good and ride very unaware of everything around them. And unlike driving a car, there is a different skill floor/ceiling to be considered competent.

sgt 4y ago
Yes! Rider education and constantly practicing is key. It also helps you enjoy motorcycling more too.
- aussiesnack 4y ago
  > Rider education and constantly practicing is key. It also helps you enjoy motorcycling more too. I don't think many non-motorcyclists get this aspect of riding, ie. that the activity itself is one to be honed and reflected on, and that treating it this way makes the mere act of transporting yourself from one place to another (which is essentially dead time for many car drivers) a keen and vital part of life.
  - ok_dad 4y ago
    That's an interesting thought: the less you ride the worse you are, so you absolutely have to ride often to maintain your safety profile. I imagine one of the least safe things might be an experienced rider not being able to ride for a while, and not taking that into account. I'm less angry at my neighbors with loud bikes riding all the time, thanks to your comment, because at least they are staying safer than if they just did it once a month or something (and I do like my neighbors, aside from 5am VROOM-VROOM noises).
    - Jcampuzano2 4y ago
      Riding a lot absolutely helps get better, but there is also such a thing as deliberate practice for uncommon situations. Riding 100000 miles straight is very different from riding 10000 miles in twisty turns, around sharp corners, practicing your emergency-braking, etc. Even if its just 5 minutes or so doing these a week, it makes you a vastly better rider. Every time I have to take extended time away from riding for some reason, I always immediately start off with a parking lot session of riding around, getting back into the groove. It doesn't take very long for it all to come back with just a bit of deliberate practice. But there are what we call weekend warriors, and many, especially in the US store away their bike for half the year as well. There are many riders who barely put more than even a couple thousand miles a year on their bikes. And these are some of the most dangerous riders to be around, especially if they have an ego.
    - aussiesnack 4y ago
      This is definitely the case. I don't trust myself when I've had a few weeks off the bike until I've done some proper practise again. The biggest obvious drop-off is attention - mind-wandering is verboten when riding, and creeps back if you're not used to maintaining concentration. Specific skills like front-brake control also need maintenance, and can always improve, whatever the experience level, as they're pretty subtle. A fortiori for reading the road and driver behaviour. > I'm less angry at my neighbors with loud bikes riding all the time Well that's pleasantly tolerant. The consideration should work both ways, but the nature of some of the motorcyclist population doesn't always lend itself that way unfortunately.
dntrkv 4y ago
> And then if a car even dares to accidentally not see them because they sat in their blind spot they flip a shit Oh god, that is the most annoying complaint I ever hear. Such a common post on any moto-focused discussion site. Usually involves an idiot on a bike cruising next to a car and then overreacting when the car begins to merge into their lane. Happens all the fucking time if you've ridden for longer than a day. Get over it and get better at anticipating it. Two rules of riding that have kept me safe for a couple hundred thousand miles of riding: 1. Always assume the cars next to you will merge into your lane. 2. ABP, Always Be Passing. Going at the flow of traffic is dangerous. Going slower than traffic is even more dangerous.
- thot_experiment 4y ago
  ABP, Always Be Passing. This cannot be overstated, it's a lot easier to deal with problems in your field of vision than ones rapidly approaching from behind. That's also why filtering is so important, and it's heinous that it's not allowed in some (most?) states. If you're able to filter you can use your superior acceleration to always be ahead of cars. It's true of bikes too, that's why treating red lights as stop signs on a bicycle is something that needs wider legal adoption. I often do it anyway and it means that in city traffic I am sometimes able to traverse a block without ever being passed by a car.
  - NoPicklez 4y ago
    "treating red lights as stop signs" as in being able to go through red lights? Or am I mistaken?
    - thot_experiment 4y ago
      I'm not sure I understand your question precisely, but this article will probably answer it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop
      - NoPicklez 4y ago

juve1996 4y ago

Being more visible will always help but you still have to ATGATT and drive defensively.

BareNakedCoder 4y ago
For the non-riders, ATGATT means "All The Gear, All The Time". I wince whenever I see some young kid and his girlfriend riding with t-shirt, short pants, and sandals. Human erasers on donor cycles :(
- ddoolin 4y ago
  I think the gearless rider by age curve is mostly a bell. Those I see riding in full gear are either young or old (55+ if I had to guess) but not usually in the middle. It's obviously biased but I'm 31 and everyone I knew and know always ride in full gear.
  - Jcampuzano2 4y ago
    I agree. I know many riders who say they only started wearing gear because they had kids, so this would align with a bell curve as they decide not to anymore once their kids are grown/independent. I'm 30 with no plans for kids, and have always worn all my gear since the beginning. What some people don't realize is if you don't wear gear and you get hit even completely accidentally or its the riders fault, your chances of dying and causing emotional damage to not only those you love, but the other party in the accident are just not worth it. I.E. giving another driver PTSD for the rest of their life because they feel like they killed someone even in the situation it wasn't their fault.

devmunchies 4y ago

> a lot of people who ride motorcycles care more about [...] aesthetics than [...] safety true, I ride with a traffic vest[1] on (which hides my expensive leather jacket!) and I'm probably deducted 40% in coolness points, but i figure I'm able to compound the little coolness points I get over a longer period. I wouldn't have done it in my 20s but now I am in my 30s and have kids so safety is more important. I've definitely noticed more people rotate their head to look at me since I've started wearing it. [1]: https://reesdistributors.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/V1020750_hr.jpg https://reesdistributors.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/V102...

frontiersummit 4y ago

People choose their vehicles for both functional purposes and sociocultural purposes. In somewhere like Manilla, a motorcycle has net positive functional utility since it is cheap, can park easily, and cut through traffic. In somewhere like Houston (where the study was authored), a motorcycle has net negative functional utility, given the humidity, rain, ample parking, and lack of lane splitting. That means riding is done for sociocultural purposes: to signal who you are by how you move about. For someone who is riding mainly for this reason, will they adopt a new light pattern, especially if it means adding a lamp to their head?

daveidol 4y ago
> That means riding is done for sociocultural purposes: to signal who you are by how you move about. There’s another reason: for fun and recreation - not necessarily for utility or to show off to others.

roflyear 4y ago

Yeah. The same people who say "loud pipes save lives" are going to be the same people who say this is stupid and who cares.