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Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

171 points by neaden 4y ago

dane-pgp 4y ago
The court case speaks for itself.
- jyxent 4y ago
  He actually tweeted essentially the same thing: https://twitter.com/HansMokeNiemann/status/1583164606029365248 https://twitter.com/HansMokeNiemann/status/15831646060293652...
haunter 4y ago
Pretty wild >FIRST CAUSE OF ACTION (Slander – Against All Defendants) >SECOND CAUSE OF ACTION (Libel – Against All Defendants) >THIRD CAUSE OF ACTION (Violation of the Sherman Act, 15 U.S.C. § 1, et seq. – Against All Defendants) >FOURTH CAUSE OF ACTION (Tortious Interference with Contract and Business Expectancies – Against All Defendants) >FIFTH CAUSE OF ACTION (Civil Conspiracy – Against All Defendants) And he is seeking 4 x "not less than $100,000,000, plus pre-judgment interest"
- neaden 4y ago
  Yeah, not a lawyer but reading this the damage and the language (things like calling Magnus "King of Chess") seem pretty extreme.
  - gretch 4y ago
    Not a lawyer but I’ve been in lawsuits on all sides. It’s the general recommended practice. The number can only go down, never up, so you ask for all that you can. It does have -some- sense if you think about it: this is a young kid with a whole career ahead of him. Because of this accusation, his career is pretty much over. Since he could have been one of the best (as demonstrated by beating magnus) he would have made $100m over a lifetime. Based This is probably the order of magnitude that hikaru and magnus will make in their careers. Or some loose logic like that
    - saxonww 4y ago
      His chess career. He most certainly has a wealth of other opportunities, and I tend to think of these chess grandmaster types as very capable of being very good at a lot of other things.
      - smoldesu 4y ago
        Man, I really hope nobody treated Brittney Griner like that when she came home... "Hey, I know you're an Olympic athelete who has been unfairly persecuted for overblown doping allegations, but... have you ever considered a career in journalism?"
        saxonww 4y ago
        Yeah... In that example though it's a basketball player caught with vape pens in her luggage, not olympic doping. The big difference is that she's not harmed her reputation with her behavior, like Hans has (or she would have were it Olympic doping). For better or worse, we care about how people represent themselves, and at least in the US vape pens don't impact your reputation like allegations of cheating do.
        MichaelCollins 4y ago
        Griner is accused of some drug offenses, but AFAIK not doping. She's not accused of cheating in her sport. In either case, she may well be too old to continue playing competitively when she comes back. But both she and Hans might still find careers in the sport as coaches. By all accounts Hans is an excellent player, even if he's cheated, and a former cheat could still find modest work as a coach.
        Vrondi 4y ago
        This would be more like _if_ she had admitted to doping during Junior Worlds, then wondered why nobody had confidence in her performance in the Olympics.
        troelsSteegin 4y ago
        FYI, she's still in prison: https://people.com/sports/brittney-griner-releases-statement-from-russian-prison-birthday/ https://people.com/sports/brittney-griner-releases-statement...
- yladiz 4y ago
  >THIRD CAUSE OF ACTION (Violation of the Sherman Act, 15 U.S.C. § 1, et seq. – Against All Defendants) What possible violation of the Sherman Act could he be pursuing?
  - karpierz 4y ago
    He insinuates that by merging Chess.com and PlayMagnus, Chess is basically all owned by the same entity.
    - yladiz 4y ago
      Chess.com does do tournaments, but it’s not like it governs the game like FIDE. That’s an extremely flimsy argument.
    - sterlind 4y ago
      what about lichess though? that's independent and quite popular.
      - karpierz 4y ago
        He brings up lichess briefly: > 69. Upon announcing the Merger, it was reported that “With this, there is no other realistic chess competitor in sight (apart from the open-source and free Lichess platform), raising questions about monopolistic issues in the space and the reasons behind Chess.com’s recent price hike.” > 70. Once completed, the Merger will further solidify Chess.com’s monopoly over the chess industry by, among other things, providing it total control over Chess24, one of the last few alternatives to Chess.com for online chess, and purchasing the Play Magnus brand, which has become virtually synonymous with chess. Seems like a "throw everything at the wall and see what sticks" kind of argument.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    The baseline from Alex Jones' cases is significantly higher: Jones built a multibillion dollar company off of slanderous lies about grieving parents and dead children. I don't think anybody in this context is worth close to that much, has had nearly that much public influence, etc.
    - Ekaros 4y ago
      Chess.com has yearly revenue of 50 to 100 million. So I think actually the 100 million is quite low looking at that number.
      - woodruffw 4y ago
        Where did you get that number from? I can't find any source online that substantiates it.
        Ekaros 4y ago
        https://mixergy.com/interviews/chess-com-with-erik-allebest/ https://mixergy.com/interviews/chess-com-with-erik-allebest/ Transcript have them over 50, but under 100m it seems.
        woodruffw 4y ago
        That's much more than I expected. That being said, it's not really the same as Jones: chess.com's revenue comes from a paid service, one that's basically orthogonal to any support they've lent to the cheating accusations. This is in contrast to InfoWars, where a significant income driver was Jones's repeated defamations.
Overtonwindow 4y ago
While I don’t think he will win, I think a stronger response is necessary because none of the allegations have been proven. An elite set has condemned someone. Even under a lower standard of more likely than not, I do not believe that it is more likely than not that Neiman cheated. I’m glad he’s standing up for himself but I’m sad to see a lawsuit.
- troon-lover 4y ago
- munchler 4y ago
  He's already admitted that he cheated. The only question now is how many times and when.
- inanutshellus 4y ago
  (Excellent username, btw.) Why wouldn't he win? As you mentioned, nothing has been proven, and yet in the "court of public opinion" he's already guilty and is the butt (in the literal sense) of jokes all due to the insinuations and accusations from Mr. Carlsen, the chess tournament hosts, etc. This guy's reputation is in shambles and yet hasn't been formally charged with anything and there's no hard proof anywhere (AFAIK). Seems to me that there's an onus on the defendants to prove he cheated, and if they can't do that... wouldn't they have to be found guilty of defaming him? Notably: I'm no lawyer and have no idea how defamation cases actually work.
  - jstx1 4y ago
    > nothing has been proven The court cases won't be about whether he cheated. They'll mostly be about whether the people he's suing could legally say the things they've said.
    - modeless 4y ago
      The legality may depend on whether he cheated or not. Truth is an absolute defense to libel.
raydiatian 4y ago
> Notorious for his inability to cope with defeat what these guys can’t be serious. In any case, if Carlsen, Nakamura, and Chess.com are in fact colluding to stifle the anomalously fastest-ascending player, that would be quite the story.
hatware 4y ago
Well he's gotta make money somehow.
- dylan604 4y ago
  Just another example of when you can't innovate, litigate
  - thatguy0900 4y ago
    How so? If he's cheating, he was never actually caught in person, so probably pretty innovative, and if he's not cheating, then his career is crumbling around him at 19 and he can't possibly innovate around the #1 player and one of the largest chess organizations conspiring against him. (I think he's cheating for the record)
    - dylan604 4y ago
      You may think that cheating without getting caught is some sort of innovation, but I think you're really stretching for that one. Maybe the phrase should be updated to "If you can't innovate, litigate. Or cheat" If you were moving yourself to a better place or even the "sport" or whatever you're involved is moved forward because of you getting better, that would be innovation. Trying to win but not putting in the effort of actually getting better but finding loopholes just flat out isn't. Don't care how much you admire the cleverness in the cheat
      - thatguy0900 4y ago
        I don't know, especially on this website. Half of the super innovative high market cap companies everyone laudes on here just have "cheating/ignoring regulations and common decency" as half of the innovation.
        dylan604 4y ago
        Sounds like you're ready for another round of investment! Probably the biggest lesson to be learned from YC or any incubator. (Fake it 'til you make)++. If you can't fake it, lie lie lie until they believe it.
Group_B 4y ago
Aaaaannd any last remaining respect I had for Hans is now gone.
- fdfaz 4y ago
- NotYourLawyer 4y ago
  Why? If he’s innocent, this seems like a reasonable lawsuit.
  - rob74 4y ago
    Even if he's not innocent, proving that he cheated in a way that will hold up in court might be very difficult...
    - NotYourLawyer 4y ago
      Plaintiff has the burden of proof.
    - selfmodruntime 4y ago
      Well, perhaps then Magnus and Chess.com shouldn't have tried to deplatform him? Turns out, in civil matters what you say can bite you in the ass. Who knew.
      - threatofrain 4y ago
        I'd note that Chess.com prefers to deal with things privately and would've been quiet about this had Hans not publicly used Chess.com's brand to bolster his own credibility, essentially saying that Chess.com vouches for him. Then Chess.com asked him to retract his words but Hans refused. This is ultimately led to the WSJ article.
  - parrellel 4y ago
    I mean we know he cheated before, he's said as much. Now, I don't know if he actually cheated in the match with Carlsen, but Carlsen had every reason to believe the man would and did. Which would make libel and slander pretty untenable by my limited understanding.
newaccount2021 4y ago
fkarg 4y ago
Not sure it's helping his case, really
mellosouls 4y ago
I don't know what the right way for him to fight back is, but this is a teenager who's made a few mistakes and in disproportionate response has been steamrolled by some of the biggest forces in chess - which could have had quite terrible mental health consequences for some - so I'm glad he has found an avenue for redress, however it pans out. He's owed a massive apology by them.
- ouid 4y ago
- pozdnyshev 4y ago
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  If somebody is too young to be accountable for cheating, then they're too young to be trusted in top level competitions in the first place.
  - aoeusnth1 4y ago
    I agree. kids shouldn’t play in low security events like Titled Tuesday or other online tournaments with no arbiter. Kids don’t have the self control to never open up another tab and check some moves, and we shouldn’t be surprised when it happens.
- ChoGGi 4y ago
  You can't change who you really are, you can only pretend. My opinion only obviously.
- nilespotter 4y ago
  > which could have had quite terrible mental health consequences for some God people are so fragile these days.
  - faeriechangling 4y ago
dieselgate 4y ago
I'm not a chess player but have been interested in the developments of this saga from exposure via HN and other sources. Here is Carlsen's twitter statement in regards to the issue in case anyone wants to see or needs a refresher. I'm personally not aware of other "public statements" made that could be closely related but I'm just a rando https://twitter.com/magnuscarlsen/status/1574482694406565888 https://twitter.com/magnuscarlsen/status/1574482694406565888
preommr 4y ago
This truly is the drama that keeps delivering.
StanislavPetrov 4y ago
It's going to be interesting to watch someone with a documented history of cheating try to claim they were damaged by being called a cheater.
- faeriechangling 4y ago
  I think him being damaged by being called a cheater is incredibly obvious, it has materially impacted his future earnings directly, and it has also had a significantly impacted his reputation beyond what the prior cheating allegations did. Magnus and Hikaru are two of the biggest chess celebrities on the planet, and Chess.com (According to Hans himself) has the best anti-cheat team in the chess world. Being accused of cheating by these individuals publicly, as well as being accused to cheating RECENTLY, both have severely impacted his reputation. I don't think the legal question is going to be establishing that Hans has faced harm. I think that's self-evident. The interesting question is more did Magnus Carlsen's/Chess.com's/Hikaru Nakamura's statements amount to Libel/Slander? My money is against Hans. Libel/Slander is hard to prove in the US.
  - Vrondi 4y ago
    One might even think that his own documented and admitted history of cheating is what has damaged him. Who wants to play against a cheater? Has he suddenly come down with a case of honor? How can he prove that? He has already destroyed his own reputation. Why should anyone want to play him? He is whining because he is reaping what he has sown himself.
    - faeriechangling 4y ago
      I believe his past and admitted history of cheating did damage him, but that does not mean these recent allegations of cheating have not additionally damaged him. The allegations also weren't "Why - this man has admitted to cheated in the past - therefore we shouldn't trust him in the future". In the case of chess.com, they made specific and explicit allegations of cheating across a number of RECENT games. Magnus accused him specifically of cheating in the Sinquefield cup. The difference between somebody who cheated a few years ago as a teenager only online and seemingly reformed, and somebody who cheated again after claiming not to and cheated OTB as well, is significantly different in many peoples eyes. In a way that materially impacts his future career. Before the Magnus allegations of recent cheating, nobody was seriously considering banning Hans from tournaments. Now he has already been banned from money tournaments by chess.com. I believe the fact he has faced harm as a result of these novel allegations is so obvious as to be beyond dispute. It is by far the easiest part of Hans legal case to prove. Unflattering allegations against Hans literally ended up in the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal because of the recent novel allegations of Chess.com and Magnus Carlsen. Past misdeeds do not mean the end of all future legal protections. Just because you have a shady past doesn't mean you can't sue for slander/libel and win, you see shady journalists who lie all the time win slander/libel cases all the time.
RobLach 4y ago
Looks like chess has a new meta.
bigbillheck 4y ago
Missouri apparently has a regrettably-narrow anti-SLAPP statue.
m3kw9 4y ago
For 402$?
- jerf 4y ago
  Not sure why the summary is showing that. The complaint if you click through is for $100M.
bborud 4y ago
When people take boardgames a bit too seriously. :-P
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- collinvandyck76 4y ago
  This is more than just boardgames, it's peoples' careers and livelihoods, too.
  - bborud 4y ago
    Yes, there are people who make a living from playing. It doesn't mean it isn't healthy to take a step back every now and then and consider the ridiculousness of taking this too seriously. If only there was bread to accompany the circus.
    - CarvedWoodDrama 4y ago
      Hear hear I think xQc said it best: https://www.reddit.com/r/LivestreamFail/comments/x6rx19/xqc_carved_wood_drama/ https://www.reddit.com/r/LivestreamFail/comments/x6rx19/xqc_...
moralestapia 4y ago
Great, talk is cheap. Let both sides show their proof, if there's any.
2bitencryption 4y ago
Can someone explain something - Assume for a moment Hans did not cheat (aside from the times he admitted to cheating). In the scenario where he did not cheat - how amazing is his performance? I.e. beating Magnus, Elo rating, etc. I know chess.com did an analysis, which I've read, but I'm hoping someone more impartial could explain it. In the scenario where he did not cheat, is he really on a Bobby Fischer-like ascendance? This is what I'm trying to understand - both scenarios seem so wild to me. Either (a) this guy is cheating a pro-level chess (totally wild) OR (b) he's on a crazy ramp-up of skill (totally wild). (a) is pretty self-explanatory. (b) is what I want someone to explain - if this is the scenario, just how crazy is the rate of his skill increase?
- planetsprite 4y ago
  His rate of improvement, assuming no cheating since his ban in 2020, is a faster ascendance than any other player in history, including Bobby Fischer. So yes, assuming he suddenly quit cheating cold turkey, his performance would indicate he is a once in a generation talent and could easily become the best in the world, according to the Chess.com report.
  - sillysaurusx 4y ago
    I'm a huge Hans fan. (F him for cheating, but setting that aside.) His play is objectively insane. Either he's somehow been cheating this whole time via shoefish, or he's the real deal. GothamChess has had excellent coverage of his games. Like seriously, look at this one: https://youtu.be/ainUWFboMLs?t=1490 https://youtu.be/ainUWFboMLs?t=1490 Hans threw a masterful knockout punch at the end, one which his opponent completely overlooked, and was solely a single move. There wasn't cheating-like high level strategy involved -- it was a one-move fatality. Whatever else the kid has done, he is one hell of a chess player. I find it hard not to root for him, even knowing his history.
    - nilespotter 4y ago
      I love that this video has over 300k views.
j0hnyl 4y ago
Who could have seen this coming? I think it's pretty clear though that Magnus made his statements under legal guidance so this was probably expected.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
rossdavidh 4y ago
Just a thought experiment: what if it turns out that, for all practical purposes, it is impossible to prevent cheating in chess? I mean the sport of Tour de France cycling disappeared for a decade, replaced by an identical-looking-but-fundamentally-different sport of competing to see who can cheat (dope) the best. It was probably not even possible to get into the TdF during that time period, without doping, there were so many people doing it. It is entirely possible, that chess (as a professional competition) is not going to survive this, because it will turn out that with modern computing and communications technology, it is not possible to prevent cheating. Whoever wins the competition, will be the one who cheated the best. Chess will be replaced with an acting and subterfuge competition.
- dane-pgp 4y ago
  > Chess will be replaced with an acting and subterfuge competition. Which sort of prompts the question: Why isn't there a "World Chess Cheating Championship"? The competitors would be given the chance to either demonstrate a type of cheating, or demonstrate a counter-measure, and then judges would be able to organise rigorous tests that paired the methods off against each other. One sort of test that would be interesting to try is to have a GM who is able to receive a one-bit signal from an accomplice once per game (the much-discussed "this is an important move, think carefully" signal), and then statisticians should try to pick that game (or some set of such games) out of a sea of non-cheating games. Basically I think that the chess community shouldn't take any "security measures" by event organisers at face value. Without red-teaming, any such measures are just security theatre.
  - ajhurliman 4y ago
    There actually is, computer-aided humans can beat computers, in fact.
    - Rodeoclash 4y ago
      My understanding is that computer aided humans lose vs pure computer opponents. The human is a handicap.
NickC25 4y ago
The guy has admitted to cheating in the past, to make money. Basically he said that if his rating was above X, he could make more money streaming. Chess.com put out a massive publication proving he cheated a hell of a lot more than "once or twice when he was younger". Because if he's not cheating, he's literally the prodigal child of AlphaZero and Bobby Fischer and should be crowned the GOAT immediately. Some of his play is unreal. There are more examples of him playing games with 100% accuracy against fellow GMs in the past few years than Magnus has had in his entire career IIRC. Some of his losses are against much lower rated opponents and somehow he manages to play some of the most accurate games against the highest rated opponents. Honestly, what needs to happen is chess needs to be replaced with Fischer Random, and matches played in significantly faster time controls so players don't have the time to have moves evaluated and transmitted to them.
- xzel 4y ago
  Or just delay the live stream instead? There’s a whole lot of hyperbole in your comments. He definitely cheated in online play as chess.com and Hans himself has said. Don’t think there’s been any proof of OTB cheating so far and his OTB play seems to be pretty realistic at this point.
  - okamiueru 4y ago
    I don't understand the comments regarding delayed live stream. Splitting video feed, visually analysing a board from it, and feeding it feeding into an engine, are all rather straight forward things to do. And delayed feed for conspirators seems redundant.
    - maxbond 4y ago
      If the stream is delayed such that the previous move is being broadcast as the current move is played, than a cheater would need to communicate with their collaborators in duplex. A transmitter is a lot easier to detect than a receiver. The other alternative would be carrying the entire cheating apparatus on your person, which also presents a larger "cross section", if you will.
ppjim 4y ago
This is not a good thing for chess that Hans Niemann is filing a lawsuit against world champion Magnus Carlsen and others. The lawsuit is a distraction from the game of chess and takes away from the enjoyment that fans of the game get from watching the top players compete.
- thatguy0900 4y ago
  Finding out that there is alot of cheating among gms, as the chess.com report seems to indicate, might be a bigger distraction from the game
WORMS_EAT_WORMS 4y ago
I feel bad for Magnus. It looks like the CEO of chess.com totally played him. Chess.com sponsors and owns so much of the Chess community. They have more power and influence than even FIDE over the players IMO. - GM sponsors? Chess.com money. - Chess streamers? Chess.com money. Magnus joining forces in a more professional setting via the acquisition created a serious conflict of interest. Not a perfect example, but imagine if Lebron James was on the board of the NBA while playing for the Lakers... It just becomes too easy for things to spiral. How I see it, chess.com's "timed banned", "the report" and "the CEO reddit comments" fueled a fire that didn't need it to support their guy.
- alephxyz 4y ago
  I think this whole drama is on chess.com for allowing cheaters back on their platform and not having a public wall of shame. They've known that Hans had cheated online and never disclosed it. Now they are trying to fool us into thinking they're on the public's side. If you don't penalize cheaters early on then every kid that's promising at chess will start to cheat online to boost their stream views and to have enough income to focus fully on chess.
  - WORMS_EAT_WORMS 4y ago
    Well... then they would have to give up that sweet, sweet power and money. Chess.com on all fronts has been only acting in their own self interest ($) and not for the sport of the game. And now, hilariously, Magnus is not only in bed with that but he can't get out / is part of it.
victor9000 4y ago
Hans taking his case to court to prove he is unbeadable.
- pcvarmint 4y ago
  Sounds like victory IANAL
svrtknst 4y ago
Is it normal for these suits to be so... salty? in their formulations. I've never read one before, but a lot of the wordings are pretty hilarious. > Carlsen, having solidifed his position as the "King of Chess", believes that when it comes to chess, he can do whatever he wants and get away with it. > On September 4, 2022, Niemann soundly defeated Carlsen during an in-person game > Notably, this was not the first time that Niemann beat Carlsen at chess > Notorios for his inability to cope with defeat, Carlsen snapped. Enraged that the young Niemann, fully 12 years his junior, dared to disrespect the "King of Chess", and fearful that the young prodigy would further blemish his multi-million dollar brand by beating him again
- hugocbp 4y ago
  As an "ex" lawyer, you can see some pretty blunt sentences wrapped within otherwise "polite" and formal language in lawsuits... But this... This actually reads like a thriller. Very interesting (and refreshing) to see this kind of structure in a high-profile lawsuit.
  - MarcelOlsz 4y ago
    I'll catch the movie in 15 years.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
pigtailgirl 4y ago
-- the lawyer he is using is an interesting choice - https://www.gartnerlawfirm.com/ https://www.gartnerlawfirm.com/ - has no particular specialty in this - somewhat reads like an ambulance chaser --
zeroonetwothree 4y ago
It’s true there doesn’t seem to be evidence Niemann cheated OTB. But he did cheat online so it’s hard to be sympathetic.
zeroonetwothree 4y ago
Niemann is asking for $100m in damages which seems just a tad high.
miamibre 4y ago
Please note: I am not a lawyer With that said, pretty much everyone in my family, including my SO, are lawyers and I have been around the block a few times when it comes to discussing slander / libel suits in the US. As an independent 3rd party with no interest in the world of Chess, I don't see how Niemann expects to win any damages in this case. In the US the bar for slander is very high due to the existence of the first amendment and trying to protect it, you will basically have to prove malicious intent and that the offending party knew they were lying. Other countries like the UK have a much lower bar which is why it's a bigger deal there. Unless I am missing some clear piece of evidence no one made a bad faith comment (and i need to stress you need to prove this beyond a reasonable doubt) Magnus felt there was foul play because he knew of Nieman's history of cheating which was public knowledge in the chess world, same thing with his comments regarding the coach Chess.com simply made available data that is rightfully theirs and stated that his rise has been exceptional. Hikaru simply commented on the situation like a million other youtubers / twitch streamers and influencers, he just happens to be an expert in the field so he made his opinion using his domain knowledge and the fact that Niemann had been previously accused of cheating. Again, unless i am missing some clear piece of evidence no one acted maliciously or twisted the truth to purposely cause harm, only gave their opinion using the information they had available.
- rufus_foreman 4y ago
  >> I don't see how Niemann expects to win any damages in this case I don't think that's the only reason you bring a slander lawsuit. I think sometimes people do it expecting they will lose, but knowing the defense will be "we have no evidence the things we said were true, but our false statements are technically legal", and making the defendants go on the record with that defense.
  - grogers 4y ago
    IANAL but I think if they knew the statements were false (or with reckless disregard for the truth) then it would be slander. This is the "actual malice" standard. But in this case it seems absurdly unlikely that Niemann could prove this.
karencarits 4y ago
Does someone know how the law works with regards to Magnus Carlsen being Norwegian?
- sicromoft 4y ago
  IANAL, but I'm pretty sure it's totally legal to be Norwegian.
kregasaurusrex 4y ago
Niemann should be treated like the equivalent of a major league athlete, where FIDE as chess's governing body should have the final say as to whether Hans is allowed to compete at major tournaments instead of corporate sponsor Chess.com. The accusations of him cheating at over-the-board play have been dubious at best, and the allegations of doing so during online play are inconclusive with no smoking gun to indicate outside help. Chess.com's report[0] focused on analyzing his online games and de-emphasized his strong play in over-the-board games, and also says their report shouldn't be used as a reason for him not to play at in-person tournaments; yet do the doublespeak of banning him from the 2022 Global Championship! While it is true that even a single small outside hint can change the outcome of a game, Niemann and the entire chess community have benefitted from practicing against increasingly stronger computer engines where play styles have adjusted to this new era as well in addition to self-funding his tuition at a private school. Many of these tournaments over the past 3 years have only been played online, and have easier access to both stronger real and virtual opponents so having a faster increase in his ELO rating than anyone previously is not outside the realm of possibility. Defamation, while likely will be settled for much less than the stated amount, on this is case is very justified as tournaments are invite-only rather than climbing a tournament ladder by winning local/regional games. Barring an athlete based on unsubstantiated political decisions and effectively trying to destroy Niemann's livelihood should be seen as highly unethical action by Chess.com and Carlsen. [0] https://www.chess.com/blog/CHESScom/hans-niemann-report https://www.chess.com/blog/CHESScom/hans-niemann-report
- hbbwebw 4y ago
  I don’t think chess.com is the final word in anything other than playing on chess.com and in thier tournaments. Hans is actively playing in the US Championship now: https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chess.pl?tid=117035 https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chess.pl?tid=117035
- threatofrain 4y ago
  Chess.com's position is that FIDE should make its own rulings. But unlike the NFL, there is no "other" NFL that makes any serious money; in chess this is different. The 2022 Global Championship is a tournament organized by Chess.com.
raydiatian 4y ago
Anybody who can understand GM tier gameplay, was Niemann genuinely in sufficiently describing his moves postgame like Nakamura accuses?
raydiatian 4y ago
As much as I want to support Carlsen/Nakamura camp... Honestly Niemann’s claims of conspiracy seem wild, but not totally outrageous. My opinion of the situation has been largely informed by findings from Chess.com reports, and so if Niemann wants to claim that he’s being conspired against, seems like we should rely on a consensus of impartial chess experts, of which there must be plenty. Everybody involved should know that the public would be more interested in knowing who is lying in a court of law than blindly taking sides. If Carlsen camp settles out you know he’s got nothing.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Havoc 4y ago
Given that the accusations seemed fairly veiled and measured I don’t see how this would fly
throw__2sdfw 4y ago
picsao 4y ago

171 points by neaden 4y ago

dane-pgp 4y ago

The court case speaks for itself.

jyxent 4y ago
He actually tweeted essentially the same thing: https://twitter.com/HansMokeNiemann/status/1583164606029365248 https://twitter.com/HansMokeNiemann/status/15831646060293652...

haunter 4y ago

Pretty wild >FIRST CAUSE OF ACTION (Slander – Against All Defendants) >SECOND CAUSE OF ACTION (Libel – Against All Defendants) >THIRD CAUSE OF ACTION (Violation of the Sherman Act, 15 U.S.C. § 1, et seq. – Against All Defendants) >FOURTH CAUSE OF ACTION (Tortious Interference with Contract and Business Expectancies – Against All Defendants) >FIFTH CAUSE OF ACTION (Civil Conspiracy – Against All Defendants) And he is seeking 4 x "not less than $100,000,000, plus pre-judgment interest"

neaden 4y ago
Yeah, not a lawyer but reading this the damage and the language (things like calling Magnus "King of Chess") seem pretty extreme.
- gretch 4y ago
  Not a lawyer but I’ve been in lawsuits on all sides. It’s the general recommended practice. The number can only go down, never up, so you ask for all that you can. It does have -some- sense if you think about it: this is a young kid with a whole career ahead of him. Because of this accusation, his career is pretty much over. Since he could have been one of the best (as demonstrated by beating magnus) he would have made $100m over a lifetime. Based This is probably the order of magnitude that hikaru and magnus will make in their careers. Or some loose logic like that
  - saxonww 4y ago
    His chess career. He most certainly has a wealth of other opportunities, and I tend to think of these chess grandmaster types as very capable of being very good at a lot of other things.
    - smoldesu 4y ago
      Man, I really hope nobody treated Brittney Griner like that when she came home... "Hey, I know you're an Olympic athelete who has been unfairly persecuted for overblown doping allegations, but... have you ever considered a career in journalism?"
      - saxonww 4y ago
        Yeah... In that example though it's a basketball player caught with vape pens in her luggage, not olympic doping. The big difference is that she's not harmed her reputation with her behavior, like Hans has (or she would have were it Olympic doping). For better or worse, we care about how people represent themselves, and at least in the US vape pens don't impact your reputation like allegations of cheating do.
      - MichaelCollins 4y ago
        Griner is accused of some drug offenses, but AFAIK not doping. She's not accused of cheating in her sport. In either case, she may well be too old to continue playing competitively when she comes back. But both she and Hans might still find careers in the sport as coaches. By all accounts Hans is an excellent player, even if he's cheated, and a former cheat could still find modest work as a coach.
      - Vrondi 4y ago
        This would be more like _if_ she had admitted to doping during Junior Worlds, then wondered why nobody had confidence in her performance in the Olympics.
      - troelsSteegin 4y ago
        FYI, she's still in prison: https://people.com/sports/brittney-griner-releases-statement-from-russian-prison-birthday/ https://people.com/sports/brittney-griner-releases-statement...
yladiz 4y ago
>THIRD CAUSE OF ACTION (Violation of the Sherman Act, 15 U.S.C. § 1, et seq. – Against All Defendants) What possible violation of the Sherman Act could he be pursuing?
- karpierz 4y ago
  He insinuates that by merging Chess.com and PlayMagnus, Chess is basically all owned by the same entity.
  - yladiz 4y ago
    Chess.com does do tournaments, but it’s not like it governs the game like FIDE. That’s an extremely flimsy argument.
  - sterlind 4y ago
    what about lichess though? that's independent and quite popular.
    - karpierz 4y ago
      He brings up lichess briefly: > 69. Upon announcing the Merger, it was reported that “With this, there is no other realistic chess competitor in sight (apart from the open-source and free Lichess platform), raising questions about monopolistic issues in the space and the reasons behind Chess.com’s recent price hike.” > 70. Once completed, the Merger will further solidify Chess.com’s monopoly over the chess industry by, among other things, providing it total control over Chess24, one of the last few alternatives to Chess.com for online chess, and purchasing the Play Magnus brand, which has become virtually synonymous with chess. Seems like a "throw everything at the wall and see what sticks" kind of argument.
Ekaros 4y ago
- woodruffw 4y ago
  The baseline from Alex Jones' cases is significantly higher: Jones built a multibillion dollar company off of slanderous lies about grieving parents and dead children. I don't think anybody in this context is worth close to that much, has had nearly that much public influence, etc.
  - Ekaros 4y ago
    Chess.com has yearly revenue of 50 to 100 million. So I think actually the 100 million is quite low looking at that number.
    - woodruffw 4y ago
      Where did you get that number from? I can't find any source online that substantiates it.
      - Ekaros 4y ago
        https://mixergy.com/interviews/chess-com-with-erik-allebest/ https://mixergy.com/interviews/chess-com-with-erik-allebest/ Transcript have them over 50, but under 100m it seems.
        woodruffw 4y ago
        That's much more than I expected. That being said, it's not really the same as Jones: chess.com's revenue comes from a paid service, one that's basically orthogonal to any support they've lent to the cheating accusations. This is in contrast to InfoWars, where a significant income driver was Jones's repeated defamations.

Overtonwindow 4y ago

While I don’t think he will win, I think a stronger response is necessary because none of the allegations have been proven. An elite set has condemned someone. Even under a lower standard of more likely than not, I do not believe that it is more likely than not that Neiman cheated. I’m glad he’s standing up for himself but I’m sad to see a lawsuit.

troon-lover 4y ago
munchler 4y ago
He's already admitted that he cheated. The only question now is how many times and when.
inanutshellus 4y ago
(Excellent username, btw.) Why wouldn't he win? As you mentioned, nothing has been proven, and yet in the "court of public opinion" he's already guilty and is the butt (in the literal sense) of jokes all due to the insinuations and accusations from Mr. Carlsen, the chess tournament hosts, etc. This guy's reputation is in shambles and yet hasn't been formally charged with anything and there's no hard proof anywhere (AFAIK). Seems to me that there's an onus on the defendants to prove he cheated, and if they can't do that... wouldn't they have to be found guilty of defaming him? Notably: I'm no lawyer and have no idea how defamation cases actually work.
- jstx1 4y ago
  > nothing has been proven The court cases won't be about whether he cheated. They'll mostly be about whether the people he's suing could legally say the things they've said.
  - modeless 4y ago
    The legality may depend on whether he cheated or not. Truth is an absolute defense to libel.

raydiatian 4y ago

> Notorious for his inability to cope with defeat what these guys can’t be serious. In any case, if Carlsen, Nakamura, and Chess.com are in fact colluding to stifle the anomalously fastest-ascending player, that would be quite the story.

hatware 4y ago

Well he's gotta make money somehow.

dylan604 4y ago
Just another example of when you can't innovate, litigate
- thatguy0900 4y ago
  How so? If he's cheating, he was never actually caught in person, so probably pretty innovative, and if he's not cheating, then his career is crumbling around him at 19 and he can't possibly innovate around the #1 player and one of the largest chess organizations conspiring against him. (I think he's cheating for the record)
  - dylan604 4y ago
    You may think that cheating without getting caught is some sort of innovation, but I think you're really stretching for that one. Maybe the phrase should be updated to "If you can't innovate, litigate. Or cheat" If you were moving yourself to a better place or even the "sport" or whatever you're involved is moved forward because of you getting better, that would be innovation. Trying to win but not putting in the effort of actually getting better but finding loopholes just flat out isn't. Don't care how much you admire the cleverness in the cheat
    - thatguy0900 4y ago
      I don't know, especially on this website. Half of the super innovative high market cap companies everyone laudes on here just have "cheating/ignoring regulations and common decency" as half of the innovation.
      - dylan604 4y ago
        Sounds like you're ready for another round of investment! Probably the biggest lesson to be learned from YC or any incubator. (Fake it 'til you make)++. If you can't fake it, lie lie lie until they believe it.

Group_B 4y ago

Aaaaannd any last remaining respect I had for Hans is now gone.

fdfaz 4y ago
NotYourLawyer 4y ago
Why? If he’s innocent, this seems like a reasonable lawsuit.
- rob74 4y ago
  Even if he's not innocent, proving that he cheated in a way that will hold up in court might be very difficult...
  - NotYourLawyer 4y ago
    Plaintiff has the burden of proof.
  - selfmodruntime 4y ago
    Well, perhaps then Magnus and Chess.com shouldn't have tried to deplatform him? Turns out, in civil matters what you say can bite you in the ass. Who knew.
    - threatofrain 4y ago
      I'd note that Chess.com prefers to deal with things privately and would've been quiet about this had Hans not publicly used Chess.com's brand to bolster his own credibility, essentially saying that Chess.com vouches for him. Then Chess.com asked him to retract his words but Hans refused. This is ultimately led to the WSJ article.
- parrellel 4y ago
  I mean we know he cheated before, he's said as much. Now, I don't know if he actually cheated in the match with Carlsen, but Carlsen had every reason to believe the man would and did. Which would make libel and slander pretty untenable by my limited understanding.

newaccount2021 4y ago

fkarg 4y ago

Not sure it's helping his case, really

mellosouls 4y ago

I don't know what the right way for him to fight back is, but this is a teenager who's made a few mistakes and in disproportionate response has been steamrolled by some of the biggest forces in chess - which could have had quite terrible mental health consequences for some - so I'm glad he has found an avenue for redress, however it pans out. He's owed a massive apology by them.

ouid 4y ago
pozdnyshev 4y ago
MichaelCollins 4y ago
If somebody is too young to be accountable for cheating, then they're too young to be trusted in top level competitions in the first place.
- aoeusnth1 4y ago
  I agree. kids shouldn’t play in low security events like Titled Tuesday or other online tournaments with no arbiter. Kids don’t have the self control to never open up another tab and check some moves, and we shouldn’t be surprised when it happens.
ChoGGi 4y ago
You can't change who you really are, you can only pretend. My opinion only obviously.
nilespotter 4y ago
> which could have had quite terrible mental health consequences for some God people are so fragile these days.
- faeriechangling 4y ago

dieselgate 4y ago

I'm not a chess player but have been interested in the developments of this saga from exposure via HN and other sources. Here is Carlsen's twitter statement in regards to the issue in case anyone wants to see or needs a refresher. I'm personally not aware of other "public statements" made that could be closely related but I'm just a rando https://twitter.com/magnuscarlsen/status/1574482694406565888 https://twitter.com/magnuscarlsen/status/1574482694406565888

preommr 4y ago

This truly is the drama that keeps delivering.

StanislavPetrov 4y ago

It's going to be interesting to watch someone with a documented history of cheating try to claim they were damaged by being called a cheater.

faeriechangling 4y ago
I think him being damaged by being called a cheater is incredibly obvious, it has materially impacted his future earnings directly, and it has also had a significantly impacted his reputation beyond what the prior cheating allegations did. Magnus and Hikaru are two of the biggest chess celebrities on the planet, and Chess.com (According to Hans himself) has the best anti-cheat team in the chess world. Being accused of cheating by these individuals publicly, as well as being accused to cheating RECENTLY, both have severely impacted his reputation. I don't think the legal question is going to be establishing that Hans has faced harm. I think that's self-evident. The interesting question is more did Magnus Carlsen's/Chess.com's/Hikaru Nakamura's statements amount to Libel/Slander? My money is against Hans. Libel/Slander is hard to prove in the US.
- Vrondi 4y ago
  One might even think that his own documented and admitted history of cheating is what has damaged him. Who wants to play against a cheater? Has he suddenly come down with a case of honor? How can he prove that? He has already destroyed his own reputation. Why should anyone want to play him? He is whining because he is reaping what he has sown himself.
  - faeriechangling 4y ago
    I believe his past and admitted history of cheating did damage him, but that does not mean these recent allegations of cheating have not additionally damaged him. The allegations also weren't "Why - this man has admitted to cheated in the past - therefore we shouldn't trust him in the future". In the case of chess.com, they made specific and explicit allegations of cheating across a number of RECENT games. Magnus accused him specifically of cheating in the Sinquefield cup. The difference between somebody who cheated a few years ago as a teenager only online and seemingly reformed, and somebody who cheated again after claiming not to and cheated OTB as well, is significantly different in many peoples eyes. In a way that materially impacts his future career. Before the Magnus allegations of recent cheating, nobody was seriously considering banning Hans from tournaments. Now he has already been banned from money tournaments by chess.com. I believe the fact he has faced harm as a result of these novel allegations is so obvious as to be beyond dispute. It is by far the easiest part of Hans legal case to prove. Unflattering allegations against Hans literally ended up in the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal because of the recent novel allegations of Chess.com and Magnus Carlsen. Past misdeeds do not mean the end of all future legal protections. Just because you have a shady past doesn't mean you can't sue for slander/libel and win, you see shady journalists who lie all the time win slander/libel cases all the time.

RobLach 4y ago

Looks like chess has a new meta.

bigbillheck 4y ago

Missouri apparently has a regrettably-narrow anti-SLAPP statue.

m3kw9 4y ago

For 402$?

jerf 4y ago
Not sure why the summary is showing that. The complaint if you click through is for $100M.

bborud 4y ago

When people take boardgames a bit too seriously. :-P

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collinvandyck76 4y ago
This is more than just boardgames, it's peoples' careers and livelihoods, too.
- bborud 4y ago
  Yes, there are people who make a living from playing. It doesn't mean it isn't healthy to take a step back every now and then and consider the ridiculousness of taking this too seriously. If only there was bread to accompany the circus.
  - CarvedWoodDrama 4y ago
    Hear hear I think xQc said it best: https://www.reddit.com/r/LivestreamFail/comments/x6rx19/xqc_carved_wood_drama/ https://www.reddit.com/r/LivestreamFail/comments/x6rx19/xqc_...

moralestapia 4y ago

Great, talk is cheap. Let both sides show their proof, if there's any.

2bitencryption 4y ago

Can someone explain something - Assume for a moment Hans did not cheat (aside from the times he admitted to cheating). In the scenario where he did not cheat - how amazing is his performance? I.e. beating Magnus, Elo rating, etc. I know chess.com did an analysis, which I've read, but I'm hoping someone more impartial could explain it. In the scenario where he did not cheat, is he really on a Bobby Fischer-like ascendance? This is what I'm trying to understand - both scenarios seem so wild to me. Either (a) this guy is cheating a pro-level chess (totally wild) OR (b) he's on a crazy ramp-up of skill (totally wild). (a) is pretty self-explanatory. (b) is what I want someone to explain - if this is the scenario, just how crazy is the rate of his skill increase?

planetsprite 4y ago
His rate of improvement, assuming no cheating since his ban in 2020, is a faster ascendance than any other player in history, including Bobby Fischer. So yes, assuming he suddenly quit cheating cold turkey, his performance would indicate he is a once in a generation talent and could easily become the best in the world, according to the Chess.com report.
- sillysaurusx 4y ago
  I'm a huge Hans fan. (F him for cheating, but setting that aside.) His play is objectively insane. Either he's somehow been cheating this whole time via shoefish, or he's the real deal. GothamChess has had excellent coverage of his games. Like seriously, look at this one: https://youtu.be/ainUWFboMLs?t=1490 https://youtu.be/ainUWFboMLs?t=1490 Hans threw a masterful knockout punch at the end, one which his opponent completely overlooked, and was solely a single move. There wasn't cheating-like high level strategy involved -- it was a one-move fatality. Whatever else the kid has done, he is one hell of a chess player. I find it hard not to root for him, even knowing his history.
  - nilespotter 4y ago
    I love that this video has over 300k views.

j0hnyl 4y ago

Who could have seen this coming? I think it's pretty clear though that Magnus made his statements under legal guidance so this was probably expected.

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rossdavidh 4y ago

Just a thought experiment: what if it turns out that, for all practical purposes, it is impossible to prevent cheating in chess? I mean the sport of Tour de France cycling disappeared for a decade, replaced by an identical-looking-but-fundamentally-different sport of competing to see who can cheat (dope) the best. It was probably not even possible to get into the TdF during that time period, without doping, there were so many people doing it. It is entirely possible, that chess (as a professional competition) is not going to survive this, because it will turn out that with modern computing and communications technology, it is not possible to prevent cheating. Whoever wins the competition, will be the one who cheated the best. Chess will be replaced with an acting and subterfuge competition.

dane-pgp 4y ago
> Chess will be replaced with an acting and subterfuge competition. Which sort of prompts the question: Why isn't there a "World Chess Cheating Championship"? The competitors would be given the chance to either demonstrate a type of cheating, or demonstrate a counter-measure, and then judges would be able to organise rigorous tests that paired the methods off against each other. One sort of test that would be interesting to try is to have a GM who is able to receive a one-bit signal from an accomplice once per game (the much-discussed "this is an important move, think carefully" signal), and then statisticians should try to pick that game (or some set of such games) out of a sea of non-cheating games. Basically I think that the chess community shouldn't take any "security measures" by event organisers at face value. Without red-teaming, any such measures are just security theatre.
- ajhurliman 4y ago
  There actually is, computer-aided humans can beat computers, in fact.
  - Rodeoclash 4y ago
    My understanding is that computer aided humans lose vs pure computer opponents. The human is a handicap.

NickC25 4y ago

The guy has admitted to cheating in the past, to make money. Basically he said that if his rating was above X, he could make more money streaming. Chess.com put out a massive publication proving he cheated a hell of a lot more than "once or twice when he was younger". Because if he's not cheating, he's literally the prodigal child of AlphaZero and Bobby Fischer and should be crowned the GOAT immediately. Some of his play is unreal. There are more examples of him playing games with 100% accuracy against fellow GMs in the past few years than Magnus has had in his entire career IIRC. Some of his losses are against much lower rated opponents and somehow he manages to play some of the most accurate games against the highest rated opponents. Honestly, what needs to happen is chess needs to be replaced with Fischer Random, and matches played in significantly faster time controls so players don't have the time to have moves evaluated and transmitted to them.

xzel 4y ago
Or just delay the live stream instead? There’s a whole lot of hyperbole in your comments. He definitely cheated in online play as chess.com and Hans himself has said. Don’t think there’s been any proof of OTB cheating so far and his OTB play seems to be pretty realistic at this point.
- okamiueru 4y ago
  I don't understand the comments regarding delayed live stream. Splitting video feed, visually analysing a board from it, and feeding it feeding into an engine, are all rather straight forward things to do. And delayed feed for conspirators seems redundant.
  - maxbond 4y ago
    If the stream is delayed such that the previous move is being broadcast as the current move is played, than a cheater would need to communicate with their collaborators in duplex. A transmitter is a lot easier to detect than a receiver. The other alternative would be carrying the entire cheating apparatus on your person, which also presents a larger "cross section", if you will.

ppjim 4y ago

This is not a good thing for chess that Hans Niemann is filing a lawsuit against world champion Magnus Carlsen and others. The lawsuit is a distraction from the game of chess and takes away from the enjoyment that fans of the game get from watching the top players compete.

thatguy0900 4y ago
Finding out that there is alot of cheating among gms, as the chess.com report seems to indicate, might be a bigger distraction from the game

WORMS_EAT_WORMS 4y ago

I feel bad for Magnus. It looks like the CEO of chess.com totally played him. Chess.com sponsors and owns so much of the Chess community. They have more power and influence than even FIDE over the players IMO. - GM sponsors? Chess.com money. - Chess streamers? Chess.com money. Magnus joining forces in a more professional setting via the acquisition created a serious conflict of interest. Not a perfect example, but imagine if Lebron James was on the board of the NBA while playing for the Lakers... It just becomes too easy for things to spiral. How I see it, chess.com's "timed banned", "the report" and "the CEO reddit comments" fueled a fire that didn't need it to support their guy.

alephxyz 4y ago
I think this whole drama is on chess.com for allowing cheaters back on their platform and not having a public wall of shame. They've known that Hans had cheated online and never disclosed it. Now they are trying to fool us into thinking they're on the public's side. If you don't penalize cheaters early on then every kid that's promising at chess will start to cheat online to boost their stream views and to have enough income to focus fully on chess.
- WORMS_EAT_WORMS 4y ago
  Well... then they would have to give up that sweet, sweet power and money. Chess.com on all fronts has been only acting in their own self interest ($) and not for the sport of the game. And now, hilariously, Magnus is not only in bed with that but he can't get out / is part of it.

victor9000 4y ago

Hans taking his case to court to prove he is unbeadable.

pcvarmint 4y ago
Sounds like victory IANAL

svrtknst 4y ago

Is it normal for these suits to be so... salty? in their formulations. I've never read one before, but a lot of the wordings are pretty hilarious. > Carlsen, having solidifed his position as the "King of Chess", believes that when it comes to chess, he can do whatever he wants and get away with it. > On September 4, 2022, Niemann soundly defeated Carlsen during an in-person game > Notably, this was not the first time that Niemann beat Carlsen at chess > Notorios for his inability to cope with defeat, Carlsen snapped. Enraged that the young Niemann, fully 12 years his junior, dared to disrespect the "King of Chess", and fearful that the young prodigy would further blemish his multi-million dollar brand by beating him again

hugocbp 4y ago
As an "ex" lawyer, you can see some pretty blunt sentences wrapped within otherwise "polite" and formal language in lawsuits... But this... This actually reads like a thriller. Very interesting (and refreshing) to see this kind of structure in a high-profile lawsuit.
- MarcelOlsz 4y ago
  I'll catch the movie in 15 years.
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pigtailgirl 4y ago

-- the lawyer he is using is an interesting choice - https://www.gartnerlawfirm.com/ https://www.gartnerlawfirm.com/ - has no particular specialty in this - somewhat reads like an ambulance chaser --

zeroonetwothree 4y ago

It’s true there doesn’t seem to be evidence Niemann cheated OTB. But he did cheat online so it’s hard to be sympathetic.

zeroonetwothree 4y ago

Niemann is asking for $100m in damages which seems just a tad high.

miamibre 4y ago

Please note: I am not a lawyer With that said, pretty much everyone in my family, including my SO, are lawyers and I have been around the block a few times when it comes to discussing slander / libel suits in the US. As an independent 3rd party with no interest in the world of Chess, I don't see how Niemann expects to win any damages in this case. In the US the bar for slander is very high due to the existence of the first amendment and trying to protect it, you will basically have to prove malicious intent and that the offending party knew they were lying. Other countries like the UK have a much lower bar which is why it's a bigger deal there. Unless I am missing some clear piece of evidence no one made a bad faith comment (and i need to stress you need to prove this beyond a reasonable doubt) Magnus felt there was foul play because he knew of Nieman's history of cheating which was public knowledge in the chess world, same thing with his comments regarding the coach Chess.com simply made available data that is rightfully theirs and stated that his rise has been exceptional. Hikaru simply commented on the situation like a million other youtubers / twitch streamers and influencers, he just happens to be an expert in the field so he made his opinion using his domain knowledge and the fact that Niemann had been previously accused of cheating. Again, unless i am missing some clear piece of evidence no one acted maliciously or twisted the truth to purposely cause harm, only gave their opinion using the information they had available.

rufus_foreman 4y ago
>> I don't see how Niemann expects to win any damages in this case I don't think that's the only reason you bring a slander lawsuit. I think sometimes people do it expecting they will lose, but knowing the defense will be "we have no evidence the things we said were true, but our false statements are technically legal", and making the defendants go on the record with that defense.
- grogers 4y ago
  IANAL but I think if they knew the statements were false (or with reckless disregard for the truth) then it would be slander. This is the "actual malice" standard. But in this case it seems absurdly unlikely that Niemann could prove this.

karencarits 4y ago

Does someone know how the law works with regards to Magnus Carlsen being Norwegian?

sicromoft 4y ago
IANAL, but I'm pretty sure it's totally legal to be Norwegian.

kregasaurusrex 4y ago

Niemann should be treated like the equivalent of a major league athlete, where FIDE as chess's governing body should have the final say as to whether Hans is allowed to compete at major tournaments instead of corporate sponsor Chess.com. The accusations of him cheating at over-the-board play have been dubious at best, and the allegations of doing so during online play are inconclusive with no smoking gun to indicate outside help. Chess.com's report[0] focused on analyzing his online games and de-emphasized his strong play in over-the-board games, and also says their report shouldn't be used as a reason for him not to play at in-person tournaments; yet do the doublespeak of banning him from the 2022 Global Championship! While it is true that even a single small outside hint can change the outcome of a game, Niemann and the entire chess community have benefitted from practicing against increasingly stronger computer engines where play styles have adjusted to this new era as well in addition to self-funding his tuition at a private school. Many of these tournaments over the past 3 years have only been played online, and have easier access to both stronger real and virtual opponents so having a faster increase in his ELO rating than anyone previously is not outside the realm of possibility. Defamation, while likely will be settled for much less than the stated amount, on this is case is very justified as tournaments are invite-only rather than climbing a tournament ladder by winning local/regional games. Barring an athlete based on unsubstantiated political decisions and effectively trying to destroy Niemann's livelihood should be seen as highly unethical action by Chess.com and Carlsen. [0] https://www.chess.com/blog/CHESScom/hans-niemann-report https://www.chess.com/blog/CHESScom/hans-niemann-report

hbbwebw 4y ago
I don’t think chess.com is the final word in anything other than playing on chess.com and in thier tournaments. Hans is actively playing in the US Championship now: https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chess.pl?tid=117035 https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chess.pl?tid=117035
threatofrain 4y ago
Chess.com's position is that FIDE should make its own rulings. But unlike the NFL, there is no "other" NFL that makes any serious money; in chess this is different. The 2022 Global Championship is a tournament organized by Chess.com.

raydiatian 4y ago

Anybody who can understand GM tier gameplay, was Niemann genuinely in sufficiently describing his moves postgame like Nakamura accuses?

raydiatian 4y ago

As much as I want to support Carlsen/Nakamura camp... Honestly Niemann’s claims of conspiracy seem wild, but not totally outrageous. My opinion of the situation has been largely informed by findings from Chess.com reports, and so if Niemann wants to claim that he’s being conspired against, seems like we should rely on a consensus of impartial chess experts, of which there must be plenty. Everybody involved should know that the public would be more interested in knowing who is lying in a court of law than blindly taking sides. If Carlsen camp settles out you know he’s got nothing.

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Havoc 4y ago

Given that the accusations seemed fairly veiled and measured I don’t see how this would fly

throw__2sdfw 4y ago

picsao 4y ago