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I can't upvote this enough, people seem stuck in their concept of what a car is. Without a driver we are free to redesign cars in so many ways. We no longer ne

by learc83 15y ago

I can't upvote this enough, people seem stuck in their concept of what a car is. Without a driver we are free to redesign cars in so many ways. We no longer need to worry about designing it so that the driver can see every angle, so we can design more efficient seating layouts. We can even add partitions so the 10 passengers don't have to see each other. Long distance deliver vehicles can operate at lower fuel efficient speeds. We can combine delivery and passenger vehicles. The list is endless.

wcarss 15y ago
In fact, many transit systems do combine delivery and passenger vehicles -- greyhound has a package delivery service. To your other point: I think that assuming we'll go off the wall and design wacky new vehicles is too optimistic, akin to the "cities of the future" envisioned during the past hundred years. People's sensibilities of "what makes a car look nice" and "what is a metal box I'd like to sit in" seem to be pretty set, and we don't have a very different experience in a train or on a bus today than in a car. Face forward or backward in a seat with big windows and high visibility. Part of that is for your senses to not freak out, part of it is just that it's cheap and easy, and part of it is that experiments in the form-factor don't need to be done, so they aren't done. I expect the same trend will continue unless flukes occur.
- learc83 15y ago
  >In fact, many transit systems do combine delivery and passenger vehicles -- greyhound has a package delivery service. I didn't know that about greyhound. I'm aware that airliners routinely carry packages. I was thinking more, you've got a car coming to your house every morning, let's throw your Amazon.com orders on it. >design wacky new vehicles I'm not thinking wacky designs. A car is usually designed to be sat in for a certain length of time. They aren't really designed for very long trips without stopping frequently, since driverless cars make long trips much more appealing, they'll have to be redesigned to an extent. A fleet of rental cars would be much more efficient if each car held say 10 people instead of 4, so another natural redesign. > "what makes a car look nice" To many people, a car becomes part of their identity, not so much with a temporary rental, so I think function starts to trump form >don't have a very different experience in a train or on a bus today than in a car I think the experience in a long distance train is very different than in a car. The main difference is compartments, and that's what I envision for cars. I'm not talking anything radical, just what I think would be natural progressions when you remove the need for a driver.
  - brc 15y ago
    A 10 person vehicle necessarily needs to be larger and have a more powerful drivetrain so it would be less efficient in the dead miles it has to drive to get around and pick people up. So I don't see that 10-person vehicles would become the norm. I would actually see it going the other way, and that 2 person vehicles the size of a smart would actually become the norm. Most people currently have excess seating capacity (5) for the few occasions when they need it. But with driverless cars, you don't need that, because you can spread the load over several cars. Why drive a 10 capacity car around for the odd case where 10 people need to go to the one location, rather than 5 2 person cars that can assemble when needed to cart 10 people on the same trip.
prawn 15y ago
For peak times, I'm imagining 8-12 seater vehicles where people sit in pods facing outwards, with dividers that could be retracted if you were speaking with your partner in the same vehicle. Pick-up points would be very near to your home, and drop-off very near to your work. No parking to worry about. Something in between a regular driven commute and walking three blocks to wait for a bus. Software would decide routes and timing to best service as many people as possible.
joe_the_user 15y ago
Now wait a minute... While I'm all for your point that drivelessness will allow an incredible re-imagining of the automobile, considering the gp responded my original post, I just want to bring things back to the question of resource utilization. The automobile today is half efficient transport and half personal expression/personal entertainment. And the personal expression/personal entertainment part is where the massive resource utilization comes in. So, sure, you could reimagine the automobile for super-efficiency with four-people per car whenever you're driving and the resource utilization goes away - so does the personal entertainment/personal expression stuff. So you could go multiple ways. Towards a super-efficient taxi and towards an office/living room on wheels. The first way would involve less resources consumed, the second would involve less resources consumed. It is hard to be certain what the net outcome will be.
- learc83 15y ago
  I think the natural progression of driverless cars is away from individual ownership. Why own a car when you can have near instant availability of a much cheaper rental. To many people, a car becomes part of their identity, or like you said >expression/personal entertainment I'm sure that there will still be people for whom this is true, but for most of us it won't matter b/c the efficient always there taxi will be so much cheaper. For most middle to lower-middle class Americans I think current cars are really out of their comfortable price range, they own them b/c they view them as a requirement. If you give them an alternative that is just as convient, but cheaper, and without the maintenance hassles, it's no contest.

by learc83 15y ago

wcarss 15y ago

In fact, many transit systems do combine delivery and passenger vehicles -- greyhound has a package delivery service. To your other point: I think that assuming we'll go off the wall and design wacky new vehicles is too optimistic, akin to the "cities of the future" envisioned during the past hundred years. People's sensibilities of "what makes a car look nice" and "what is a metal box I'd like to sit in" seem to be pretty set, and we don't have a very different experience in a train or on a bus today than in a car. Face forward or backward in a seat with big windows and high visibility. Part of that is for your senses to not freak out, part of it is just that it's cheap and easy, and part of it is that experiments in the form-factor don't need to be done, so they aren't done. I expect the same trend will continue unless flukes occur.

learc83 15y ago
>In fact, many transit systems do combine delivery and passenger vehicles -- greyhound has a package delivery service. I didn't know that about greyhound. I'm aware that airliners routinely carry packages. I was thinking more, you've got a car coming to your house every morning, let's throw your Amazon.com orders on it. >design wacky new vehicles I'm not thinking wacky designs. A car is usually designed to be sat in for a certain length of time. They aren't really designed for very long trips without stopping frequently, since driverless cars make long trips much more appealing, they'll have to be redesigned to an extent. A fleet of rental cars would be much more efficient if each car held say 10 people instead of 4, so another natural redesign. > "what makes a car look nice" To many people, a car becomes part of their identity, not so much with a temporary rental, so I think function starts to trump form >don't have a very different experience in a train or on a bus today than in a car I think the experience in a long distance train is very different than in a car. The main difference is compartments, and that's what I envision for cars. I'm not talking anything radical, just what I think would be natural progressions when you remove the need for a driver.
- brc 15y ago
  A 10 person vehicle necessarily needs to be larger and have a more powerful drivetrain so it would be less efficient in the dead miles it has to drive to get around and pick people up. So I don't see that 10-person vehicles would become the norm. I would actually see it going the other way, and that 2 person vehicles the size of a smart would actually become the norm. Most people currently have excess seating capacity (5) for the few occasions when they need it. But with driverless cars, you don't need that, because you can spread the load over several cars. Why drive a 10 capacity car around for the odd case where 10 people need to go to the one location, rather than 5 2 person cars that can assemble when needed to cart 10 people on the same trip.

prawn 15y ago

For peak times, I'm imagining 8-12 seater vehicles where people sit in pods facing outwards, with dividers that could be retracted if you were speaking with your partner in the same vehicle. Pick-up points would be very near to your home, and drop-off very near to your work. No parking to worry about. Something in between a regular driven commute and walking three blocks to wait for a bus. Software would decide routes and timing to best service as many people as possible.

joe_the_user 15y ago

Now wait a minute... While I'm all for your point that drivelessness will allow an incredible re-imagining of the automobile, considering the gp responded my original post, I just want to bring things back to the question of resource utilization. The automobile today is half efficient transport and half personal expression/personal entertainment. And the personal expression/personal entertainment part is where the massive resource utilization comes in. So, sure, you could reimagine the automobile for super-efficiency with four-people per car whenever you're driving and the resource utilization goes away - so does the personal entertainment/personal expression stuff. So you could go multiple ways. Towards a super-efficient taxi and towards an office/living room on wheels. The first way would involve less resources consumed, the second would involve less resources consumed. It is hard to be certain what the net outcome will be.

learc83 15y ago
I think the natural progression of driverless cars is away from individual ownership. Why own a car when you can have near instant availability of a much cheaper rental. To many people, a car becomes part of their identity, or like you said >expression/personal entertainment I'm sure that there will still be people for whom this is true, but for most of us it won't matter b/c the efficient always there taxi will be so much cheaper. For most middle to lower-middle class Americans I think current cars are really out of their comfortable price range, they own them b/c they view them as a requirement. If you give them an alternative that is just as convient, but cheaper, and without the maintenance hassles, it's no contest.