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Every time I think the USA is completely ruined, I remember how much worse the citizens of the UK have it. I remote worked for a London based CTO for years, wit

Every time I think the USA is completely ruined, I remember how much worse the citizens of the UK have it. I remote worked for a London based CTO for years, with a science Phd, and to hear him discuss UK politics gave me an insight how effective propaganda and being immersed in a culture impacts one's judgement.

mannykannot 4y ago
From here in the US, I'm holding off from any attempt to rank the two for at least three weeks.
jlangenauer 4y ago
Reminds me of an old joke. Back in the 60s, a Soviet diplomat ran into an American diplomat on the sidelines of some conference. "I want to congratulate you Americans", says the Soviet diplomat, "your propaganda is amazing, it's much better than ours". "What do you mean?", replies the American. "We don't have propaganda?" "See what I mean!"
- hnfong 4y ago
  Still true today.
truculent 4y ago
Funnily enough, in the U.K. you’ll hear the inverse refrain!
sebzim4500 4y ago
To be fair, I imagine that guy thought the same of you.
mcv 4y ago
Both countries suffer from winner-takes-all district systems, and would probably be much improved by a system of proportional representation.
- 1980phipsi 4y ago
  Because Italy and Israel benefit so much from their proportional representation systems...
  - mcv 4y ago
    It's obviously not a silver bullet that will magically fix everything, but a lot of countries are doing very well with proportional representation. Also, I think Italy actually has a hybrid system.
  - gpderetta 4y ago
    Italy certainly did [1]. In fact Italian politics became much worse since the proportional system was weakened. [1] yes governments were weak and were replaced often, but that's a feature, not a problem.
    - MichaelZuo 4y ago
      What makes you believe that is desirable?
      - gpderetta 4y ago
        the belief that wider representation in the government, less polarization, a strong parliament and a weak executive is more desirable.
        MichaelZuo 4y ago
        A weak executive would seem to reduce representation in government though? As each member of parliament must necessarily represent the biggest groups in their constituencies. So a decent size group scattered across many dozens of constituencies into relatively tiny groups would simply never get taken seriously without a strong executive.
        4y ago
rapsey 4y ago
The US has the most effective propaganda machine ever devised.
gadders 4y ago
Beltalowda 4y ago
The UK and US systems share a lot of similarities, which is not surprising considering the history, but UK politics seems better (or rather, less bad) to me? Both Boris and Truss were forced to resign by their own party, whereas the GOP's relationship with Trump is... well, different. Plus in spite of the first-past-the-post system there are actually candidates of alternative parties being voted in, even if we ignore the regional parties like SNP, DUP, etc. The Lib-Dems have a chequered history, but it's better than nothing.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  > Boris and Truss were forced to resign by their own party, whereas the GOP's relationship with Trump is... well, different Different in the sense that Trump remains extremely popular with Republican voters, independent of his actions. If Trump weren't so popular, his own party would have tossed him out long ago. They only grudgingly allowed him to become their leader in the first place because to oppose him meant almost certain defeat in their own next election.
martopix 4y ago
Uhm, what? I think UK politics is pretty sane actually. It has a lot of problems, but definitely not this almost civil-war-like type of language that you have in the USA. And although the UK is getting worse and worse, there are European countries that still have a worse political environment.
- bsenftner 4y ago
  Well, leaving the EU strikes me as only good for the 1%'ers, so...
- Loughla 4y ago
  I'm not sure that just the force of rhetoric used is a good measure for how sane politics is. You can be polite, and still be insane or evil (see: Brexit and all of the politicking and --from what I can tell-- outright lies that were sold to people). That whole process was mostly civil and polite, but not necessarily healthy.
speeder 4y ago
I am from Brazil, at least you don't have "Electoral Judges" that will happily fuck with the elections and ignore constitution to make sure their preferred candidate win. The Electoral Judges in Brazil, are censoring actual facts, because despite being facts, they consider it "misinformation", it go so bad that a former supreme court judge of ours got censored for explaining something technical... Despite the fact our constitution explicitly bans any form of censorship. (ironically, as defense against US... our constitution promotes free speech to prevent CIA from subverting the country again).
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  > at least you don't have "Electoral Judges" that will happily fuck with the elections and ignore constitution to make sure their preferred candidate win Lets revisit this observation in 2024 when the next US Presidential election is held. Many localities have been electing people to oversee their local election process who are 2020 deniers, and who supported overturning Biden's win in order to keep Trump in office. I think 2024 could be interesting.

mannykannot 4y ago

From here in the US, I'm holding off from any attempt to rank the two for at least three weeks.

jlangenauer 4y ago

Reminds me of an old joke. Back in the 60s, a Soviet diplomat ran into an American diplomat on the sidelines of some conference. "I want to congratulate you Americans", says the Soviet diplomat, "your propaganda is amazing, it's much better than ours". "What do you mean?", replies the American. "We don't have propaganda?" "See what I mean!"

hnfong 4y ago
Still true today.

truculent 4y ago

Funnily enough, in the U.K. you’ll hear the inverse refrain!

sebzim4500 4y ago

To be fair, I imagine that guy thought the same of you.

mcv 4y ago

Both countries suffer from winner-takes-all district systems, and would probably be much improved by a system of proportional representation.

1980phipsi 4y ago
Because Italy and Israel benefit so much from their proportional representation systems...
- mcv 4y ago
  It's obviously not a silver bullet that will magically fix everything, but a lot of countries are doing very well with proportional representation. Also, I think Italy actually has a hybrid system.
- gpderetta 4y ago
  Italy certainly did [1]. In fact Italian politics became much worse since the proportional system was weakened. [1] yes governments were weak and were replaced often, but that's a feature, not a problem.
  - MichaelZuo 4y ago
    What makes you believe that is desirable?
    - gpderetta 4y ago
      the belief that wider representation in the government, less polarization, a strong parliament and a weak executive is more desirable.
      - MichaelZuo 4y ago
        A weak executive would seem to reduce representation in government though? As each member of parliament must necessarily represent the biggest groups in their constituencies. So a decent size group scattered across many dozens of constituencies into relatively tiny groups would simply never get taken seriously without a strong executive.
        4y ago

rapsey 4y ago

The US has the most effective propaganda machine ever devised.

gadders 4y ago

Beltalowda 4y ago

The UK and US systems share a lot of similarities, which is not surprising considering the history, but UK politics seems better (or rather, less bad) to me? Both Boris and Truss were forced to resign by their own party, whereas the GOP's relationship with Trump is... well, different. Plus in spite of the first-past-the-post system there are actually candidates of alternative parties being voted in, even if we ignore the regional parties like SNP, DUP, etc. The Lib-Dems have a chequered history, but it's better than nothing.

rootusrootus 4y ago
> Boris and Truss were forced to resign by their own party, whereas the GOP's relationship with Trump is... well, different Different in the sense that Trump remains extremely popular with Republican voters, independent of his actions. If Trump weren't so popular, his own party would have tossed him out long ago. They only grudgingly allowed him to become their leader in the first place because to oppose him meant almost certain defeat in their own next election.

martopix 4y ago

Uhm, what? I think UK politics is pretty sane actually. It has a lot of problems, but definitely not this almost civil-war-like type of language that you have in the USA. And although the UK is getting worse and worse, there are European countries that still have a worse political environment.

bsenftner 4y ago
Well, leaving the EU strikes me as only good for the 1%'ers, so...
Loughla 4y ago
I'm not sure that just the force of rhetoric used is a good measure for how sane politics is. You can be polite, and still be insane or evil (see: Brexit and all of the politicking and --from what I can tell-- outright lies that were sold to people). That whole process was mostly civil and polite, but not necessarily healthy.

speeder 4y ago

I am from Brazil, at least you don't have "Electoral Judges" that will happily fuck with the elections and ignore constitution to make sure their preferred candidate win. The Electoral Judges in Brazil, are censoring actual facts, because despite being facts, they consider it "misinformation", it go so bad that a former supreme court judge of ours got censored for explaining something technical... Despite the fact our constitution explicitly bans any form of censorship. (ironically, as defense against US... our constitution promotes free speech to prevent CIA from subverting the country again).

rootusrootus 4y ago
> at least you don't have "Electoral Judges" that will happily fuck with the elections and ignore constitution to make sure their preferred candidate win Lets revisit this observation in 2024 when the next US Presidential election is held. Many localities have been electing people to oversee their local election process who are 2020 deniers, and who supported overturning Biden's win in order to keep Trump in office. I think 2024 could be interesting.