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> overlooking the way women have stepped up for their families often to the detriment of their own careers. My favorite question to ask is: "why you want a car

> overlooking the way women have stepped up for their families often to the detriment of their own careers. My favorite question to ask is: "why you want a career?" to pretty much anyone who speaks in this manner. Serious question to people, I don't get it. I love learning, I'm highly qualified in the academic space and enjoy picking at problems. I've written papers, patents, well paid, etc. Highly successful by most metrics. That said, I don't work for a "career", I work to afford me opportunity. A family is an investment in the future, it provides you happiness, but more importantly purpose. Sure, there's a lot of stress, and you have to invest a lot of time. That said, it pays off an order of magnitude in terms of life satisfaction and having future opportunities. Who's going to take you on vacation when you're 65 and have a bad hip -- if not your children? My proudest achievement are things my children have done, not the accolades, promotions, bonuses, etc I've received in my career. If I work hard, slave at night to get my presentation(s) done, will our product be better? Maybe, but in all likelihood that just makes me look good enough to get promoted, but 5 years later I wont have anything but a pay check to show for it. Wealth without purpose is worthless.

poulsbohemian 4y ago
>I love learning, I'm highly qualified in the academic space and enjoy picking at problems. I've written papers, patents, well paid, etc. Highly successful by most metrics. Right - so imagine that you didn't have that opportunity to do that academic work because you have an elderly parent at home who needs care. You've got two little kids at home who aren't yet school age and thus needs care. You wouldn't be content with your work situation in that case, right? Sure, it might just be for a few years - but what if those few years block you from key promotions or research opportunities? Do you get it? I'm certainly not saying that everyone should be focused on their careers, I'm just observing that sometimes people are making tradeoffs between their careers and their personal life, and more often than not it is the female in the heterosexual relationship that is making more of those tradeoffs.
- jimbokun 4y ago
  Women can get pregnant and breast feed. Men can't. That is the primary reason women end up making more tradeoffs in terms of career vs. family. Sure, there are some cultural and political things that can be changed. But there are some fundamental biological realities that cannot. > Right - so imagine that you didn't have that opportunity to do that academic work because you have an elderly parent at home who needs care. You've got two little kids at home who aren't yet school age and thus needs care. Many people will choose the elderly parents and little kids over academic work and promotions, given they have enough money to support themselves. The academic work and promotions are just a means to an end, which for many is the ability to support and raise a family.
  - Arainach 4y ago
    Making that choice doesn't mean that they have to be completely happy with the choice. If someone's partner became sick/disabled, many people would adjust their life to care for them rather than abandoning them, but many of those people would becomes resentful and ponder what their life would be without that situation - whether they voice that resentment or not.
  - poulsbohemian 4y ago
    >Women can get pregnant and breast feed. Men can't. So that's 9 months + some amount of months breast feeding. What's the excuse after that? Couples of all types need to find the balance that is right for them, but the comments in this thread trying to use biology as an excuse to make 18 years (or life, as I see it) worth of child-rearing strictly a "women's issue" are living in the past. >Many people will choose the elderly parents and little kids over academic work and promotions, given they have enough money to support themselves. The academic work and promotions are just a means to an end, which for many is the ability to support and raise a family. Must be nice. Meanwhile, the people in my area have shitty low paying jobs and can't afford housing, and are still trying to support their kids and elderly parents, all while having eff-all in the way of access to quality, affordable health care.
    - llbeansandrice 4y ago
nineplay 4y ago
>"why you want a career?" Financial independence. Anyone who thinks SAH parents can free themselves of this worry is naive. You never get the time back, you never get the experience back, you never get the training or the raises or the bonuses. You never get the retirement savings. If you are unfortunate enough to live in the US you are entirely dependent on your spouse for healthcare. It's an unfathomably vulnerable situation to be in but it gets brushed off. There is still an attitude that SAH is a 'gift' given to a parent, see how often a working spouse will say they 'let' their partner stay at home, that the working partner 'supports' the family. A SAH spouse is not an equal partner with a 50% contribution. More of an oldest child with extra responsibilities and a higher allowance. Pre-nups are often advocated as a way to ensure fairness if the relationship falls apart. I'd rather see pre-SAH legal documents. The SAH spouse gets half the earnings, gets half the purchases, gets half the retirement savings. A working spouse who isn't willing to sign it is a working spouse who doesn't believe that being home and watching children is a 'real' job.
- abnry 4y ago
  > A SAH spouse is not an equal partner with a 50% contribution. More of an oldest child with extra responsibilities and a higher allowance. This is a really depressing way of looking at things.
  - nineplay 4y ago
    Spend any amount of time among ( let's be honest ) men and you see this attitude over and over again. They "let" their spouse stay at home. The SAH spouse spends all "their" money. The working spouse "supports" the family. There's a constant stream of posts on reddit about how how a working spouse should be able to come home and play video games for hours - they work so hard and deserve a break. Does the SAH spouse work hard deserve a break? What a ridiculous idea. See how often someone complains that they come home and the house is a mess and the laundry isn't done and dinner isn't ready. This isn't the attitude of an equal partner, this is the attitude of a boss. Does the SAH spouse get to review the working spouse's productivity each day? Give them access to the JIRA board and let them start asking why it's taking a week to support a minor version change.
chasd00 4y ago
The last 30 years women have had it drilled into their minds that if they don't have a powerful career then they're a failure. The reply to a woman saying they want to be a mother instead of a CEO starts with "oh you poor dear..."
- PuppyTailWags 4y ago
  Among women I know, I don't see this attitude. Women I know who want careers actually want it because they don't want to be dependent on other people. Every woman I know either has personal experience or knows another woman with personal experience of being in an abusive domestic household and being unable to leave because of no personal income. That's a huge motivator not to be SAH.
  - chasd00 4y ago
    my point still stands that a woman saying they want to be a "mom" and not have a career is looked down on by their peers due to the last 30 years of career propaganda. Fear of being abused is something else entirely.
    - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
      I repeat that I don't know what you're talking about and it doesn't reflect my experience with women. Do you have sources or something?
    - welshwelsh 4y ago
      It's not about career, it's about independence. Anyone without the financial ability to leave has no power in a relationship and will be exploited or abused. That's not an edge case, it's an inevitable consequence of being financially dependent. It happens 100% of the time.
      - fragmede 4y ago
        "will be" and 100% of the time sounds, pardon me, very sad a point of view. What about those that don't abuse their position of power and responsibility? There's even a popular cultural saying, "with great power comes great responsibility". Is there really no one out there with, well, good in their hearts in your world?
club_tropical 4y ago
Excepting the exceptions, only men care about legacy and purpose. Women care about a well socialized easy life. A family can provide that, but it does restrict you in significant ways. An air conditioned office where you're tippy typing on a keyboard, making calls, joking around the water cooler, and have a bunch of disposable income at the end of the month is a fantastic deal.

poulsbohemian 4y ago

>I love learning, I'm highly qualified in the academic space and enjoy picking at problems. I've written papers, patents, well paid, etc. Highly successful by most metrics. Right - so imagine that you didn't have that opportunity to do that academic work because you have an elderly parent at home who needs care. You've got two little kids at home who aren't yet school age and thus needs care. You wouldn't be content with your work situation in that case, right? Sure, it might just be for a few years - but what if those few years block you from key promotions or research opportunities? Do you get it? I'm certainly not saying that everyone should be focused on their careers, I'm just observing that sometimes people are making tradeoffs between their careers and their personal life, and more often than not it is the female in the heterosexual relationship that is making more of those tradeoffs.

jimbokun 4y ago
Women can get pregnant and breast feed. Men can't. That is the primary reason women end up making more tradeoffs in terms of career vs. family. Sure, there are some cultural and political things that can be changed. But there are some fundamental biological realities that cannot. > Right - so imagine that you didn't have that opportunity to do that academic work because you have an elderly parent at home who needs care. You've got two little kids at home who aren't yet school age and thus needs care. Many people will choose the elderly parents and little kids over academic work and promotions, given they have enough money to support themselves. The academic work and promotions are just a means to an end, which for many is the ability to support and raise a family.
- Arainach 4y ago
  Making that choice doesn't mean that they have to be completely happy with the choice. If someone's partner became sick/disabled, many people would adjust their life to care for them rather than abandoning them, but many of those people would becomes resentful and ponder what their life would be without that situation - whether they voice that resentment or not.
- poulsbohemian 4y ago
  >Women can get pregnant and breast feed. Men can't. So that's 9 months + some amount of months breast feeding. What's the excuse after that? Couples of all types need to find the balance that is right for them, but the comments in this thread trying to use biology as an excuse to make 18 years (or life, as I see it) worth of child-rearing strictly a "women's issue" are living in the past. >Many people will choose the elderly parents and little kids over academic work and promotions, given they have enough money to support themselves. The academic work and promotions are just a means to an end, which for many is the ability to support and raise a family. Must be nice. Meanwhile, the people in my area have shitty low paying jobs and can't afford housing, and are still trying to support their kids and elderly parents, all while having eff-all in the way of access to quality, affordable health care.
  - llbeansandrice 4y ago

nineplay 4y ago

>"why you want a career?" Financial independence. Anyone who thinks SAH parents can free themselves of this worry is naive. You never get the time back, you never get the experience back, you never get the training or the raises or the bonuses. You never get the retirement savings. If you are unfortunate enough to live in the US you are entirely dependent on your spouse for healthcare. It's an unfathomably vulnerable situation to be in but it gets brushed off. There is still an attitude that SAH is a 'gift' given to a parent, see how often a working spouse will say they 'let' their partner stay at home, that the working partner 'supports' the family. A SAH spouse is not an equal partner with a 50% contribution. More of an oldest child with extra responsibilities and a higher allowance. Pre-nups are often advocated as a way to ensure fairness if the relationship falls apart. I'd rather see pre-SAH legal documents. The SAH spouse gets half the earnings, gets half the purchases, gets half the retirement savings. A working spouse who isn't willing to sign it is a working spouse who doesn't believe that being home and watching children is a 'real' job.

abnry 4y ago
> A SAH spouse is not an equal partner with a 50% contribution. More of an oldest child with extra responsibilities and a higher allowance. This is a really depressing way of looking at things.
- nineplay 4y ago
  Spend any amount of time among ( let's be honest ) men and you see this attitude over and over again. They "let" their spouse stay at home. The SAH spouse spends all "their" money. The working spouse "supports" the family. There's a constant stream of posts on reddit about how how a working spouse should be able to come home and play video games for hours - they work so hard and deserve a break. Does the SAH spouse work hard deserve a break? What a ridiculous idea. See how often someone complains that they come home and the house is a mess and the laundry isn't done and dinner isn't ready. This isn't the attitude of an equal partner, this is the attitude of a boss. Does the SAH spouse get to review the working spouse's productivity each day? Give them access to the JIRA board and let them start asking why it's taking a week to support a minor version change.

chasd00 4y ago

The last 30 years women have had it drilled into their minds that if they don't have a powerful career then they're a failure. The reply to a woman saying they want to be a mother instead of a CEO starts with "oh you poor dear..."

PuppyTailWags 4y ago
Among women I know, I don't see this attitude. Women I know who want careers actually want it because they don't want to be dependent on other people. Every woman I know either has personal experience or knows another woman with personal experience of being in an abusive domestic household and being unable to leave because of no personal income. That's a huge motivator not to be SAH.
- chasd00 4y ago
  my point still stands that a woman saying they want to be a "mom" and not have a career is looked down on by their peers due to the last 30 years of career propaganda. Fear of being abused is something else entirely.
  - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
    I repeat that I don't know what you're talking about and it doesn't reflect my experience with women. Do you have sources or something?
  - welshwelsh 4y ago
    It's not about career, it's about independence. Anyone without the financial ability to leave has no power in a relationship and will be exploited or abused. That's not an edge case, it's an inevitable consequence of being financially dependent. It happens 100% of the time.
    - fragmede 4y ago
      "will be" and 100% of the time sounds, pardon me, very sad a point of view. What about those that don't abuse their position of power and responsibility? There's even a popular cultural saying, "with great power comes great responsibility". Is there really no one out there with, well, good in their hearts in your world?

club_tropical 4y ago

Excepting the exceptions, only men care about legacy and purpose. Women care about a well socialized easy life. A family can provide that, but it does restrict you in significant ways. An air conditioned office where you're tippy typing on a keyboard, making calls, joking around the water cooler, and have a bunch of disposable income at the end of the month is a fantastic deal.