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> Which is why old timers eventually learn to just deliver with boring buggy technology. There's a reason why folks take the time to rewrite things in Rust

> Which is why old timers eventually learn to just deliver with ~~boring~~ buggy technology. There's a reason why folks take the time to rewrite things in Rust. No matter how good you are at C/C++ you will encounter bugs that you would not have if you had written it in Rust.

pjmlp 4y ago
Assuming there is even a Rust library replacement to start with. People keep forgetting C++ has 30 years of being deployed in production. Rust is 2022 is like using C++ in 1990's in terms of ecosystem.
- howinteresting 4y ago
  This is just plain false. C++ in the 1990s had nothing like serde for example.
  - jerf 4y ago
    The minimum bar for a language has moved up significantly since the 1990s. It isn't enough to just have a neat new idea, you need to ship with nearly-best-of-breed JSON serialization, a web server, a huge standard library with not just strings but things like compression and a lot of networking, and a laundry list of other things (give or take a few things) just to make it to the "barely viable alternate choice" point. Nice as a language consumer, but a bummer that building new languages and getting some attention is so much harder than it used to be.
    - xani__ 4y ago
    - marcosdumay 4y ago
      Well, Rust checks all of those boxes. Yes, it's a problem for that language you plan on creating (try specializing into a niche). But it's not something that should impact Rust's adoption.
      - pjmlp 4y ago
        With various levels of completeness.
  - rastignack 4y ago
    Where are the production grade and pure rust tls library ? Key-value store ? Ldap client ? SSH client ?
    - jhgg 4y ago
      > production grade and pure rust tls library You mean rustls? https://github.com/rustls/rustls https://github.com/rustls/rustls
      - rastignack 4y ago
        Pure rust ? No.
        bogeholm 4y ago
        You’re right, I see some *.md-files in the GitHub repo
        rastignack 4y ago
        “ ring exposes a Rust API and is written in a hybrid of Rust, C, and assembly language.”
    - pitaj 4y ago
      Aren't the most commonly used libraries for all of those written in C, not C++? Regardless, I'm surprised you haven't heard of rustls - https://github.com/rustls/rustls https://github.com/rustls/rustls
      - rastignack 4y ago
        You have great c++ libraries for those. Not in pure rust though.
    - howinteresting 4y ago
      I haven't used them much, but sled, ldap3 and thrussh do exist. As Rust gains further in popularity I'd expect more of these to become production ready. Meanwhile there's always C and C++ interop.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    And? A drop in the ocean of libraries.
    - howinteresting 4y ago
      And virtually no one should be starting new projects in C++ and everyone should switch to Rust.
      - pjmlp 4y ago
        Start by removing C++ from Rust compiler. Then go around for Khronos, NVidia, Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, Unreal, Godot,.... to support Rust on their SDKs.
- darksaints 4y ago
  The C++ IDEs available up until about 10 years ago were complete garbage. C++ still doesn't even have a good package manager. All the build systems are pure chaos. The largest C++ package manager has 1500 packages. In comparison, rust's package manager and build system are way easier to use and already have 94,000 packages available to users. That's not exactly fair to C++ because entire categories of dev tools (like build systems, package managers, IDEs, debuggers, version control, static analyzers, etc.) have matured after C++ did. And let's not forget that when C++ was new, most libraries were proprietary licensed and paid for, whereas today almost all libs are open source. And those improvements (along with general size of the programming community) mean that a trendy language today is going to develop and mature a lot faster than a formerly trendy language did 30 years ago. IMO Rust in 2022 is a lot closer to java in 2005 than C++ in the 1990s.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    Another one that never used Borland, Apple, IBM IDEs. Where is the Rust IDE that is half as capable as C++ Builder, MPW/Metrowerks, Visual Age, Zortech? Considering all features they offered across the board in the box, not only code completion.
    - darksaints 4y ago
      I've used Borland. I'm sure it was marvelous at the time, but it doesn't hold a candle to CLion or Visual Studio in the 2010s or later.
      - pjmlp 4y ago
        CLion now ships a cross platform C++ framework with it? As for Visual Studio, yeah it is great in all aspects, except having nothing else beyond MFC to offer on the GUI department, WinUI is still a mess after UWP. In any case your examples are for C++ IDEs, reinforcing my case of C++ tooling versus Rust.

> Which is why old timers eventually learn to just deliver with ~~boring~~ buggy technology. There's a reason why folks take the time to rewrite things in Rust

pjmlp 4y ago

Assuming there is even a Rust library replacement to start with. People keep forgetting C++ has 30 years of being deployed in production. Rust is 2022 is like using C++ in 1990's in terms of ecosystem.

howinteresting 4y ago
This is just plain false. C++ in the 1990s had nothing like serde for example.
- jerf 4y ago
  The minimum bar for a language has moved up significantly since the 1990s. It isn't enough to just have a neat new idea, you need to ship with nearly-best-of-breed JSON serialization, a web server, a huge standard library with not just strings but things like compression and a lot of networking, and a laundry list of other things (give or take a few things) just to make it to the "barely viable alternate choice" point. Nice as a language consumer, but a bummer that building new languages and getting some attention is so much harder than it used to be.
  - xani__ 4y ago
  - marcosdumay 4y ago
    Well, Rust checks all of those boxes. Yes, it's a problem for that language you plan on creating (try specializing into a niche). But it's not something that should impact Rust's adoption.
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      With various levels of completeness.
- rastignack 4y ago
  Where are the production grade and pure rust tls library ? Key-value store ? Ldap client ? SSH client ?
  - jhgg 4y ago
    > production grade and pure rust tls library You mean rustls? https://github.com/rustls/rustls https://github.com/rustls/rustls
    - rastignack 4y ago
      Pure rust ? No.
      - bogeholm 4y ago
        You’re right, I see some *.md-files in the GitHub repo
        rastignack 4y ago
        “ ring exposes a Rust API and is written in a hybrid of Rust, C, and assembly language.”
  - pitaj 4y ago
    Aren't the most commonly used libraries for all of those written in C, not C++? Regardless, I'm surprised you haven't heard of rustls - https://github.com/rustls/rustls https://github.com/rustls/rustls
    - rastignack 4y ago
      You have great c++ libraries for those. Not in pure rust though.
  - howinteresting 4y ago
    I haven't used them much, but sled, ldap3 and thrussh do exist. As Rust gains further in popularity I'd expect more of these to become production ready. Meanwhile there's always C and C++ interop.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  And? A drop in the ocean of libraries.
  - howinteresting 4y ago
    And virtually no one should be starting new projects in C++ and everyone should switch to Rust.
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      Start by removing C++ from Rust compiler. Then go around for Khronos, NVidia, Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, Unreal, Godot,.... to support Rust on their SDKs.
darksaints 4y ago
The C++ IDEs available up until about 10 years ago were complete garbage. C++ still doesn't even have a good package manager. All the build systems are pure chaos. The largest C++ package manager has 1500 packages. In comparison, rust's package manager and build system are way easier to use and already have 94,000 packages available to users. That's not exactly fair to C++ because entire categories of dev tools (like build systems, package managers, IDEs, debuggers, version control, static analyzers, etc.) have matured after C++ did. And let's not forget that when C++ was new, most libraries were proprietary licensed and paid for, whereas today almost all libs are open source. And those improvements (along with general size of the programming community) mean that a trendy language today is going to develop and mature a lot faster than a formerly trendy language did 30 years ago. IMO Rust in 2022 is a lot closer to java in 2005 than C++ in the 1990s.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  Another one that never used Borland, Apple, IBM IDEs. Where is the Rust IDE that is half as capable as C++ Builder, MPW/Metrowerks, Visual Age, Zortech? Considering all features they offered across the board in the box, not only code completion.
  - darksaints 4y ago
    I've used Borland. I'm sure it was marvelous at the time, but it doesn't hold a candle to CLion or Visual Studio in the 2010s or later.
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      CLion now ships a cross platform C++ framework with it? As for Visual Studio, yeah it is great in all aspects, except having nothing else beyond MFC to offer on the GUI department, WinUI is still a mess after UWP. In any case your examples are for C++ IDEs, reinforcing my case of C++ tooling versus Rust.