17 ms·

A lot of what is known about pirates is not true (2017)

117 points by Thevet 4y ago

jtbayly 4y ago
You mean they don't laugh and jump off of things?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- mcv 4y ago
  Some undoubtedly did, but I don't think it was very central to their business model.
dragontamer 4y ago
I wouldn't say I'm very well studied in Pirates, but I've played "Sid Meyer's Pirates" and loved it. A common theme in the game is that there are 4 great powers of the Caribbean sea: the British, the French, the Dutch, and the Spanish. Different cities have different allegiances (and as the Navies of the respective powers move, those cities could change sides). There's also trade winds to account for, the value of plunder (wheat, guns, and other goods you capture). There's also different statistics for different ships... and those statistics depend on the direction on of the wind (the canoe being the fastest against the wind for example). ---------- Anyway, where I'm going with this is that you're a Pirate in the game. However, your first goal is almost always to obtain a Letter of Marque from one of the great powers. The game even allows you to obtain a letter of marque from all 4 great powers (though unrealistic, its kinda funny to think you're a Privateer authorized to plunder all other powers) This is a bit of a sarcastic wink that the difference between a "Pirate" and a "Privateer" really isn't much. You go off on your sea vessel, you attack trade ships and plunder them. The Privateer just has a piece of paper (the Letter of Marque) that shows that you're doing it on behalf of a power. ------ John Paul Jones is perhaps the most famous American Privateer. In 1776, when the Revolutionary War started, John Paul Jones and his ship was off in Europe on other business. Hearing that war has been declared, he began to attack the British Isles on behalf of the USA. John Paul Jones was captured however and charged for Piracy. Fortunately, he had an American Flag flying on his ship, so he was "legitimate". Alas: the American Flag was described to him through letters. So he really didn't know what it looked like. He just... kinda drew the flag as best he could: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapis_flag https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapis_flag (13 stripes of red-white-and blue, with 13 stars on the top left? Gotcha. Totally the American flag, right?). At least, the Dutch thought it was an American flag (probably a political statement on behalf of the Dutch against the British, but hey, politics always existed). Anyway, my point is that a Letter of Marque was a big deal, making these "piracy" events legitimate. If you're just randomly attacking the British and stealing stuff, you're a Pirate. But if you're doing that because of the 1776 Revolutionary war (and you have a "flag", albeit a poorly drawn incorrect one + the piece of paper / signature from the US Congress stating the Letter of Marque), you're a lawful combatant and treated as such. Piracy probably never really died off. It just became legalized in the weirdest way possible. ------ Age of Sail, in English-speaking countries, is romanticized with Spanish enemies (see Capt. Hook, who is clearly wearing Spanish Garb + a Spanish Galleon). Because the Spanish ruled the seas in the 1400s, while the British were the upstarts. Fighting "dirty" by using Pirates (and later privateers) is just the natural result of the politics of that age. We can reverse-engineer the age of sail somewhat through our legends and stories that we've passed down over the centuries. From an American perspective: we romanticize the British/Dutch trading company as the enemy somewhat. (See Pirates of the Caribbean), because "our" privateers/pirates attacked British ships. ------- Given that the difference between a "Pirate" and a "Privateer" was simply political pieces of paper, I would not be surprised that Pirates were all over the US Colonies from the 1600s. The 13 colonies issued over 1700 letters of Marque during the Revolutionary War IIRC, suggesting a significant number of "skilled sea plunderers" in the colonies, so to speak, of varying sizes. No, the USA never had a good enough Navy to really fight the British on equal terms during the Revolutionary war, but these Privateers were pivotal in harassing / annoying those trade routes / supply routes. Those skills didn't just magically appear in 1776 during the war. Those people "were already" pirates, and just chose to support the Revolutionary War and begin to organize into the USA's nascent Navy. There's no documentation of this beforehand because those people were likely illegal pirates, so its a "purposeful" forgetting of those old crimes in order to bootstrap the early Navy. IMO anyway. But yeah, not much may be known about "Pirates". But the legal "Privateer" is extremely well documented and well studied. And you can definitely see and feel the "wink-wink and nod" towards Piracy if you go through the historical records.
- exalted1ne 4y ago
  I do not have a lot of expertise into the above nor Sid Meyers, but man, I just want to say that I appreciate the insight/opinion. Thank you for the well written response.
- twic 4y ago
  English wikipedia: > Sir Francis Drake (c. 1540 – 28 January 1596)[3] was an English explorer, sea captain, privateer, slave trader,[4][5][6] naval officer, and politician. Spanish wikipedia: > Francis Drake (Tavistock, Inglaterra, 1540-Portobelo, Panamá, 28 de enero de 1596) fue un corsario, explorador, comerciante de esclavos, político y vicealmirante inglés. The two languages understandably place different relative emphasis on Drake's various occupations.
  - dragontamer 4y ago
    > corsario Good grief. The word "Corsair" in English means Pirate (or at least: Pirate Ship), but the word "corsario" in Spanish apparently means privateer. Apparently this "Pirate vs Privateer" issue turns into a fundamental linguistic issue depending on what side you were on in the 1500s age of sail. ------ > vicealmirante I'm amused that Captain translates into Vice Admiral.
    - svachalek 4y ago
      Interesting, capitán is definitely a word (yo no soy marinero, as they say in La Bamba)
    - jjk166 4y ago
      > I'm amused that Captain translates into Vice Admiral. Francis Drake actually was an English Vice Admiral. The Spanish wikipedia is just more precise than the English one which merely calls him a naval officer.
  - kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4y ago
    "Now take Sir Francis Drake / The Spanish all despise him. / But to the British, he's a hero / And they idolize him."
brightball 4y ago
But you have heard of them... EDIT: I know, I'm sorry. I couldn't help it.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
Schroedingersat 4y ago
This article keeps describing anarchists and then following up with 'but they're not anarchists'. You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.
jghn 4y ago
I very much enjoyed "The Republic Of Pirates: Being the True and Surprising Story of the Caribbean Pirates and the Man Who Brought Them Down" by Colin Woodward. I'm pretty sure I originally came across it in a thread here on HN. Not that I'm expert enough to know, but it felt well researched. On the assumption that what he said was as true as possible given the circumstances, I thought it was pretty enlightening.
- samvher 4y ago
  Since we're doing book recommendations :) I thought "The Invisible Hook: The Hidden Economics of Pirates" [1] was a fun read as well. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Invisible-Hook-Hidden-Economics-Pirates/dp/0691150095 https://www.amazon.com/Invisible-Hook-Hidden-Economics-Pirat...
- kedean 4y ago
  For anyone fiction-inclined, The Silver Oar by Howard Breslin is the first thing that the opening part of this article reminded me of. It focuses on an accused pirate on the run in the New England colonies, and his ongoing relationship with various colonial characters. A fun swashbuckling read if one wants to branch away from prestige literature.
- Apocryphon 4y ago
  Black Sails was a fun fictionalization of that history, crossed over with the prehistory of Treasure Island. It's opening sequence is unbeatable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFTcA4QLHw0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFTcA4QLHw0
  - jghn 4y ago
    Huge fan of this show. It started off a bit weak but really took off over time.
    - kiliantics 4y ago
      I love it. I was wondering if anyone would mention it in the comments. I think it's definitely one of the lesser known absolute gems of tv in recent years.
realce 4y ago
https://piratehistorypodcast.com/ https://piratehistorypodcast.com/
Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
- oever 4y ago
  And people who engage in unauthorized wiretapping for governments are not privateers.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  Words change meaning all the time. For example, to "dime" someone these days means call them on the phone.
  - Retric 4y ago
    Which doesn’t make the above statement false.
  - jjk166 4y ago
    I have never heard the word dime used that way, nor do I see anything in the first few google results about it being used that way. There was a 60s slang term "drop a dime" which meant to call someone, and nowadays that phrase means to call the cops or to snitch.
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      It's used in the miniseries "Power".
  - yamazakiwi 4y ago
    I've been using the 2010's dime slang and didn't know about this one.
dang 4y ago
Discussed at the time: A lot we know about pirates is not true, and a lot of what is true is not known - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14287212 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14287212 - May 2017 (90 comments)
- Ylpertnodi 4y ago
  Surely the title of this item "A lot of what is known about pirates is not true" is an oxy-moron? A lot of what is [thought to be] known about pirates is not true? A lot of what is [not] known about pirates is not true? And also "A lot we know about pirates is not true..." also seems 'wrong' But I can't work out what exactly seems incorrect. I've tried substituting 'pirates' for something else, but nothing works. Help! Any linguists around...?
  - kadoban 4y ago
    I can't find anything that says that "known" things must be true. They're more "generally understood". So I don't think there's any issue with the original title.
  - denton-scratch 4y ago
    That was my reaction too; you can't "know" something that is false. Despite my innate pedantry, I didn't comment, because it's pretty clear what the title means.
dec0dedab0de 4y ago
I don't know how accurate it is but the lost pirate kingdom on netflix was pretty entertaining, and included quite a bit of information I was not aware of.
vlunkr 4y ago
It makes sense that pirates like Blackbeard dominate our view of pirates and probably distort it significantly. They were intentionally going for shock value and it obviously worked. Much like dinosaurs and knights, this brand of pirates is very appealing to kids, so we're kind of stuck with them.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- handedness 4y ago
  The same could also be said for the Wild West, and even the greater Old West period in general.
  - jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago
    It's interesting how genre fads have come and gone in the Hollywood era. For a while there swashbucklers with Errol Flynn et all were the biggest thing ever. Now that along with westerns are nearly a dead genre.
    - kadoban 4y ago
      Westerns have been reincarnated a bit here and there. The Mandalorian is a really good western for instance. Firefly as well, some years back. Westworld too. Some of the other Star Wars stuff is pretty western too, the non-main Disney movies.
      - BuckRogers 4y ago
        Wouldn’t Pirates of the Caribbean count as a massive success as a swashbuckler revival? It’s a much bigger success than any recent western.
        kadoban 4y ago
        Seems like it's a good one, yeah.
ankaAr 4y ago
I remember reading an history book about pirates when I was very young, from ancient history to modern days. How I loved it.. I will try to remember the name of the German author.
DonHopkins 4y ago
Expected the article to be about BitTorrent users.
gherkinnn 4y ago
I find it fascinating how almost everything we believe about pirates was created in the book Treasure Island.
- kadoban 4y ago
  Indirectly including the whole "arrr", pirate accent thing, which came from actor Robert Newton's film/TV portrayal.
8bitsrule 4y ago
A lot of what is known about anything is not true. And they said there was nothing left to explore!
mcv 4y ago
I thought this article would be about the fact that most piracy was not restricted to the 17th/18th century Caribbean, but that does seem to be the time period this article primarily focuses on. But piracy still exists. Somalian piracy was big in the news a couple of years ago, and there's plenty of piracy elsewhere in the world. The most successful pirate in history was not any of the famous Caribbean pirates, but Chinese Zheng Yi Sao, who commanded a fleet of hundreds or pirate ships in the South China Sea in the 19th century, and even had the British and Chinese navies ask her for peace. Of course it makes sense that pirates need a community to support them, because where else will they live, retire, sell their loot, etc? I imagine especially economic inequality, with communities left out of the profits of profitable trade, can make piracy an attractive way to even the score. But I also think there's a lot that can be said about the many different drivers of piracy, from desperation (a crew driven to mutiny against a tyrannical captain), to opportunity, war, or even a profitable business model or nation building.
permo-w 4y ago
there’s some very poor logic in this article. e.g. the first reason given for why pirates were supported was to protect their harbourers from the repercussions of hiding them in the first place.

117 points by Thevet 4y ago

jtbayly 4y ago

You mean they don't laugh and jump off of things?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
mcv 4y ago
Some undoubtedly did, but I don't think it was very central to their business model.

dragontamer 4y ago

I wouldn't say I'm very well studied in Pirates, but I've played "Sid Meyer's Pirates" and loved it. A common theme in the game is that there are 4 great powers of the Caribbean sea: the British, the French, the Dutch, and the Spanish. Different cities have different allegiances (and as the Navies of the respective powers move, those cities could change sides). There's also trade winds to account for, the value of plunder (wheat, guns, and other goods you capture). There's also different statistics for different ships... and those statistics depend on the direction on of the wind (the canoe being the fastest against the wind for example). ---------- Anyway, where I'm going with this is that you're a Pirate in the game. However, your first goal is almost always to obtain a Letter of Marque from one of the great powers. The game even allows you to obtain a letter of marque from all 4 great powers (though unrealistic, its kinda funny to think you're a Privateer authorized to plunder all other powers) This is a bit of a sarcastic wink that the difference between a "Pirate" and a "Privateer" really isn't much. You go off on your sea vessel, you attack trade ships and plunder them. The Privateer just has a piece of paper (the Letter of Marque) that shows that you're doing it on behalf of a power. ------ John Paul Jones is perhaps the most famous American Privateer. In 1776, when the Revolutionary War started, John Paul Jones and his ship was off in Europe on other business. Hearing that war has been declared, he began to attack the British Isles on behalf of the USA. John Paul Jones was captured however and charged for Piracy. Fortunately, he had an American Flag flying on his ship, so he was "legitimate". Alas: the American Flag was described to him through letters. So he really didn't know what it looked like. He just... kinda drew the flag as best he could: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapis_flag https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapis_flag (13 stripes of red-white-and blue, with 13 stars on the top left? Gotcha. Totally the American flag, right?). At least, the Dutch thought it was an American flag (probably a political statement on behalf of the Dutch against the British, but hey, politics always existed). Anyway, my point is that a Letter of Marque was a big deal, making these "piracy" events legitimate. If you're just randomly attacking the British and stealing stuff, you're a Pirate. But if you're doing that because of the 1776 Revolutionary war (and you have a "flag", albeit a poorly drawn incorrect one + the piece of paper / signature from the US Congress stating the Letter of Marque), you're a lawful combatant and treated as such. Piracy probably never really died off. It just became legalized in the weirdest way possible. ------ Age of Sail, in English-speaking countries, is romanticized with Spanish enemies (see Capt. Hook, who is clearly wearing Spanish Garb + a Spanish Galleon). Because the Spanish ruled the seas in the 1400s, while the British were the upstarts. Fighting "dirty" by using Pirates (and later privateers) is just the natural result of the politics of that age. We can reverse-engineer the age of sail somewhat through our legends and stories that we've passed down over the centuries. From an American perspective: we romanticize the British/Dutch trading company as the enemy somewhat. (See Pirates of the Caribbean), because "our" privateers/pirates attacked British ships. ------- Given that the difference between a "Pirate" and a "Privateer" was simply political pieces of paper, I would not be surprised that Pirates were all over the US Colonies from the 1600s. The 13 colonies issued over 1700 letters of Marque during the Revolutionary War IIRC, suggesting a significant number of "skilled sea plunderers" in the colonies, so to speak, of varying sizes. No, the USA never had a good enough Navy to really fight the British on equal terms during the Revolutionary war, but these Privateers were pivotal in harassing / annoying those trade routes / supply routes. Those skills didn't just magically appear in 1776 during the war. Those people "were already" pirates, and just chose to support the Revolutionary War and begin to organize into the USA's nascent Navy. There's no documentation of this beforehand because those people were likely illegal pirates, so its a "purposeful" forgetting of those old crimes in order to bootstrap the early Navy. IMO anyway. But yeah, not much may be known about "Pirates". But the legal "Privateer" is extremely well documented and well studied. And you can definitely see and feel the "wink-wink and nod" towards Piracy if you go through the historical records.

exalted1ne 4y ago
I do not have a lot of expertise into the above nor Sid Meyers, but man, I just want to say that I appreciate the insight/opinion. Thank you for the well written response.
twic 4y ago
English wikipedia: > Sir Francis Drake (c. 1540 – 28 January 1596)[3] was an English explorer, sea captain, privateer, slave trader,[4][5][6] naval officer, and politician. Spanish wikipedia: > Francis Drake (Tavistock, Inglaterra, 1540-Portobelo, Panamá, 28 de enero de 1596) fue un corsario, explorador, comerciante de esclavos, político y vicealmirante inglés. The two languages understandably place different relative emphasis on Drake's various occupations.
- dragontamer 4y ago
  > corsario Good grief. The word "Corsair" in English means Pirate (or at least: Pirate Ship), but the word "corsario" in Spanish apparently means privateer. Apparently this "Pirate vs Privateer" issue turns into a fundamental linguistic issue depending on what side you were on in the 1500s age of sail. ------ > vicealmirante I'm amused that Captain translates into Vice Admiral.
  - svachalek 4y ago
    Interesting, capitán is definitely a word (yo no soy marinero, as they say in La Bamba)
  - jjk166 4y ago
    > I'm amused that Captain translates into Vice Admiral. Francis Drake actually was an English Vice Admiral. The Spanish wikipedia is just more precise than the English one which merely calls him a naval officer.
- kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4y ago
  "Now take Sir Francis Drake / The Spanish all despise him. / But to the British, he's a hero / And they idolize him."

brightball 4y ago

But you have heard of them... EDIT: I know, I'm sorry. I couldn't help it.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

Schroedingersat 4y ago

This article keeps describing anarchists and then following up with 'but they're not anarchists'. You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

jghn 4y ago

I very much enjoyed "The Republic Of Pirates: Being the True and Surprising Story of the Caribbean Pirates and the Man Who Brought Them Down" by Colin Woodward. I'm pretty sure I originally came across it in a thread here on HN. Not that I'm expert enough to know, but it felt well researched. On the assumption that what he said was as true as possible given the circumstances, I thought it was pretty enlightening.

samvher 4y ago
Since we're doing book recommendations :) I thought "The Invisible Hook: The Hidden Economics of Pirates" [1] was a fun read as well. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Invisible-Hook-Hidden-Economics-Pirates/dp/0691150095 https://www.amazon.com/Invisible-Hook-Hidden-Economics-Pirat...
kedean 4y ago
For anyone fiction-inclined, The Silver Oar by Howard Breslin is the first thing that the opening part of this article reminded me of. It focuses on an accused pirate on the run in the New England colonies, and his ongoing relationship with various colonial characters. A fun swashbuckling read if one wants to branch away from prestige literature.
Apocryphon 4y ago
Black Sails was a fun fictionalization of that history, crossed over with the prehistory of Treasure Island. It's opening sequence is unbeatable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFTcA4QLHw0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFTcA4QLHw0
- jghn 4y ago
  Huge fan of this show. It started off a bit weak but really took off over time.
  - kiliantics 4y ago
    I love it. I was wondering if anyone would mention it in the comments. I think it's definitely one of the lesser known absolute gems of tv in recent years.

realce 4y ago

https://piratehistorypodcast.com/ https://piratehistorypodcast.com/

Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago

oever 4y ago
And people who engage in unauthorized wiretapping for governments are not privateers.
WalterBright 4y ago
Words change meaning all the time. For example, to "dime" someone these days means call them on the phone.
- Retric 4y ago
  Which doesn’t make the above statement false.
- jjk166 4y ago
  I have never heard the word dime used that way, nor do I see anything in the first few google results about it being used that way. There was a 60s slang term "drop a dime" which meant to call someone, and nowadays that phrase means to call the cops or to snitch.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    It's used in the miniseries "Power".
- yamazakiwi 4y ago
  I've been using the 2010's dime slang and didn't know about this one.

dang 4y ago

Discussed at the time: A lot we know about pirates is not true, and a lot of what is true is not known - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14287212 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14287212 - May 2017 (90 comments)

Ylpertnodi 4y ago
Surely the title of this item "A lot of what is known about pirates is not true" is an oxy-moron? A lot of what is [thought to be] known about pirates is not true? A lot of what is [not] known about pirates is not true? And also "A lot we know about pirates is not true..." also seems 'wrong' But I can't work out what exactly seems incorrect. I've tried substituting 'pirates' for something else, but nothing works. Help! Any linguists around...?
- kadoban 4y ago
  I can't find anything that says that "known" things must be true. They're more "generally understood". So I don't think there's any issue with the original title.
- denton-scratch 4y ago
  That was my reaction too; you can't "know" something that is false. Despite my innate pedantry, I didn't comment, because it's pretty clear what the title means.

dec0dedab0de 4y ago

I don't know how accurate it is but the lost pirate kingdom on netflix was pretty entertaining, and included quite a bit of information I was not aware of.

vlunkr 4y ago

It makes sense that pirates like Blackbeard dominate our view of pirates and probably distort it significantly. They were intentionally going for shock value and it obviously worked. Much like dinosaurs and knights, this brand of pirates is very appealing to kids, so we're kind of stuck with them.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
handedness 4y ago
The same could also be said for the Wild West, and even the greater Old West period in general.
- jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago
  It's interesting how genre fads have come and gone in the Hollywood era. For a while there swashbucklers with Errol Flynn et all were the biggest thing ever. Now that along with westerns are nearly a dead genre.
  - kadoban 4y ago
    Westerns have been reincarnated a bit here and there. The Mandalorian is a really good western for instance. Firefly as well, some years back. Westworld too. Some of the other Star Wars stuff is pretty western too, the non-main Disney movies.
    - BuckRogers 4y ago
      Wouldn’t Pirates of the Caribbean count as a massive success as a swashbuckler revival? It’s a much bigger success than any recent western.
      - kadoban 4y ago
        Seems like it's a good one, yeah.

ankaAr 4y ago

I remember reading an history book about pirates when I was very young, from ancient history to modern days. How I loved it.. I will try to remember the name of the German author.

DonHopkins 4y ago

Expected the article to be about BitTorrent users.

gherkinnn 4y ago

I find it fascinating how almost everything we believe about pirates was created in the book Treasure Island.

kadoban 4y ago
Indirectly including the whole "arrr", pirate accent thing, which came from actor Robert Newton's film/TV portrayal.

8bitsrule 4y ago

A lot of what is known about anything is not true. And they said there was nothing left to explore!

mcv 4y ago

I thought this article would be about the fact that most piracy was not restricted to the 17th/18th century Caribbean, but that does seem to be the time period this article primarily focuses on. But piracy still exists. Somalian piracy was big in the news a couple of years ago, and there's plenty of piracy elsewhere in the world. The most successful pirate in history was not any of the famous Caribbean pirates, but Chinese Zheng Yi Sao, who commanded a fleet of hundreds or pirate ships in the South China Sea in the 19th century, and even had the British and Chinese navies ask her for peace. Of course it makes sense that pirates need a community to support them, because where else will they live, retire, sell their loot, etc? I imagine especially economic inequality, with communities left out of the profits of profitable trade, can make piracy an attractive way to even the score. But I also think there's a lot that can be said about the many different drivers of piracy, from desperation (a crew driven to mutiny against a tyrannical captain), to opportunity, war, or even a profitable business model or nation building.

permo-w 4y ago

there’s some very poor logic in this article. e.g. the first reason given for why pirates were supported was to protect their harbourers from the repercussions of hiding them in the first place.